Uberti 1873, Cartridge OAL, How Critical?

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:28 pm

I was just curious, I looked at a couple of Uberti's today, one was a .357 and one a 45 colt. I was recently told by a current 73 shooter that over all length was very critical, for the sure fuctioning of the gun, due to the lifter hanging up on the next case in the magazine, if the bullet on the carrier is not just the right length.

I am sure there is a lot of truth to this, but what is actual useful range in thousands, I mean there has to be some tolerance. I looked an an original Winchester 73 today and noticed that the lifter had quite a bit less taper in the bottom, then the Uberti's did. It looked to me like there was enough bevel on the lifter to push a cartridge head back in the magazine if it did in fact creap out a little onto the carrier, if the over all lengths were a little short.

Just guessing but it looked like Over all lengths could vary a much as .030 and still work, but of course a slightly too long OAL would probably hang for sure.

Never owned a 73, but I might, and just wanted to know the real truth in thousands.

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:57 pm

You're not too far off. I have a 45 Colt and it will put up with some nonsense but not a lot. Basically there is no "plus" to it. It will acept them a little short (mine ~.050") but that's about it for 100% reliable function. Best to pick a bullet that will give you the OAL you need (1.58 to 1.6") rather than picking a "pretty" bullet and fussing with it to make it work. I use a 225 grain TC bullet intended for the 45 Auto and crimp with a Lee FCD to the OAL it likes the best. I imagine that most that make "cowboy" bullets are aware of this and make them to work properly. You may run into problems (mostly long) if you try to make heavy hunting type bullets work.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:10 pm

Thanks, for the reply. I have been looking at 73's for years, and I may have to finally quench my thurst for one. But I keep having problems deciding on the caliber, and I am leaning towards a .357 mag.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:19 pm

Lastmohecken; I don't know if You have seen this post or not or not but it is excellent at show how cartridge length affects a '73 toggle link action.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?t=4889

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:00 am

Howdy, Larson did a great job with his toggle link 101 article.

What he didn't know is that there's a new "Short Stop" carrier in pre-production prototyping right now that will solve the conundrum of running short rounds like .44 Russian and Cowboy .45 Special in the '60, '66 and '73 rifles. Designed by me (Adirondack Jack of cowboy45special.com) and engineered by Bill English of The Smith Shop, the notion that the "cartridge stop" is the loading gate (a poor idea, as any 66 owner who has broken off a loading gate ladle will tell you) has been worked around, by the addidion of a positive, pivoting mechanical stop that actually is engaged and held fast by the pressure exerted on the rounds by the magazine tube spring, and as soon as the carrier lifts, "floats" with only a light music wire return spring in tow.

It's gonna be on the market in a month or two.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index. ... 9.html#new

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:03 am

The 66 and 73 has a built in ammo gage. Open the action, turn the gun over and lay a round in the window where the carrier rides up and down. If it doesn't fit, it's too long. It should be about 1/16 but not more than 1/8th inch short of not fitting. This length works best because the 73, 66, and 60 does not have a mag cartridge stop. The front edge of the loading gate is the only stop. The carrier is the stop while it's in the up position.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:50 am

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:The 66 and 73 has a built in ammo gage. Open the action, turn the gun over and lay a round in the window where the carrier rides up and down. If it doesn't fit, it's too long. It should be about 1/16 but not more than 1/8th inch short of not fitting. This length works best because the 73, 66, and 60 does not have a mag cartridge stop. The front edge of the loading gate is the only stop. The carrier is the stop while it's in the up position.

Howdy Steve,

The carrier with an integral mechanical stop is on the way. The first batch will be with us in a few weeks.

Waddaya think?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:31 pm

adirondakjack,

That is a snazy piece of modification. How much fitting will it require to install in the average rifle?

And will they be made only for the 45s?

Joe

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:33 pm

Howdy Joe.

It ought to be an ALMOST drop in for the average rifle, replacing the factory carrier. The only work needed in most cases will be a .030 deep flat filed on the left side of the forward lug on the bolt, where the bolt will encounter the folded shut latch.

I say "most guns" because some early Italian rifles had a bit narrow receivers, so the sides of the carrier would need a bit of lapping (sheet of glass and some wet or dry and yer in business in two shakes) to get em to fit properly. Most fairly recent guns won't even need that.

We worked hard on the design to make it as minimally intrusive and reversible as possible. We figured that minimal flat on the bolt is about as "minimally intrusive" as we could get and stiill make the mechanism fit into the carrier and be robust and positive acting. We didn't want it too dainty where early failure might be a possibility. Earlier prototypes were rejected because they required more intrusive machining.

There was a sort of seesaw between my vision and the metal reality. With each step, the engineering got closer and closer to the design. It's a cool process, teaming up with a talented engineer to design something new.

The initial version will work with .45s for the Cowboy .45 Special, and also work in .44 special rifles to run .44 Russian. A .38 version is planned as a follow on, depending on the reception this carrier gets. It will probably be a few months later.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:34 pm

adirondakjack... That's a neat modification..But I'm curious to know what do the Henrys use for a cartridge stop what with no loading gate? Anyone? Is it just the rear of the lifter?

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:10 pm

Hi AJ,
Nice looking work. Just looking at it it appears it will only run the shorter stuff correct? To run standard length ammo you would have to change back to the original, right?

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:12 pm

Ben_Rumson wrote:adirondakjack... That's a neat modification..But I'm curious to know what do the Henrys use for a cartridge stop what with no loading gate? Anyone? Is it just the rear of the lifter?

The frame in the back of the carrier cutout extends down far enough to stop it.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:24 pm

Thanks Nate

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:54 pm

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:Hi AJ,
Nice looking work. Just looking at it it appears it will only run the shorter stuff correct? To run standard length ammo you would have to change back to the original, right?

Howdy Nate, Thanks for the kind words.

yes, to revert to normal length ammo, the carrier gets swapped back in. That's just about the same level of retrofit required with the Spur Shortstroked Marlin that I run. If I wanna go shoot a deer, I swap the .45 Colt carrier back in....

FWIW a few of these carriers will be made using the '60 henry carrier blocks, so the folks that want to experience their Henry with a CF cartridge very close to the old Henry Flat can do so using the Cowboy .45 Special.

They'll be essentially the same as the '66/73 carrier, but with the correct bottom profile for the Henry receiver.

I ought to have a couple pre-production samples next week to use for "show and tell" and final testing before we go ahead with the production run. I'm anxious to try one, as we've really been trying to make this a mod that will be transparent to the shooter (no palpable change with the mechanism in there) which is not something that's been seen with earlier attempts using a brute force stop. Hap assures me he can't feel it when he operates the lever. That's gonna be MY acid test, along with the 100% positive operation which he's got nailed with this redition of my design.