454 casull...hmmmm

[RIHMFIRE]

While reloading some 30-30 ammo today
and going through my brass inventory and cleaning them....
I found a hand full of 454 casull...I must have picked them up at the range
thinking it was 45LC....anyway......

Does anyone here have a 454 casull in a rossi levergun
and how close is it to the 44mag in performance....

kicking around the idea of getting one!
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =329016492
but 6 to 7 bills seems pricey...whatcha think?

[Old Savage]

CowboyTutt has one - had some problems with it - seemed like too much pressure and the rails got loose - mag tubes on the earlier ones would come loose. I think they addressed those problems but have not seen any others. Way beyond the 44 Mag in my book. More than I would want. I do have one in a pistol but that will only shoot 45 Colts with me.

[arjunky]

Read Paco's article on it. Way better than .44.

Found it.
http://www.gunblast.com/Paco_Legacy_454.htm

Byron

[AJMD429]

Pretty close to the .45-70 in 'reasonable' loadings. The advantages over .45-70 are:

• a) shorter action, and shorter lever-throw
  b) gun holds more rounds (10-12 vs 6-9 typical)
  c) bullets same diameter as 'pistol' ones so can share inventory with .45 Colt, ACP, etc.
  d) gun can also fire .45 Colt rounds

The disadvantages are:

• a) some fret that the Rossi 92's are pushed to the limit with that round
  b) only one 'commonly available' rifle (Rossi), although the DRC rifles look NICE...

I have one, and haven't shot it all that much (or my .45-70 Guide Gun, for that matter), but 'handiness' wise, I prefer the Rossi 92, and I shoot them both with 'moderate' loads so they do about the same thing to the target. It would be nice to have the spare-parts availability of the Guide Gun though.

Since a 'Ruger' loaded .45 Colt can do most anything I really need a short-throw levergun to do (I don't live in bear country), I don't know if there's any good reason I couldn't just use a Rossi 92 in .45 Colt with 'warm' loads to do most stuff, and since I don't have a .454 Casull handgun, it would make more sense ammo-inventory-wise.

Since most of the levergun Ka-Booms I see are Marlin .45-70's, I'm not all that fired up about loading anything hotter than a 'cowboy' load in mine, anyway. I'm a bit more comfortable with the .444 Marlin, even though the main reason there aren't as many Ka-Booms with them is probably just because there aren't as many of them in circulation...

[Old Savage]

Read Paco's article on the 45 Colt levergun for comparison on the issue.

[earlmck]

I also have one of the Rossi 92s. Full power is a 300 grain Hornady XTP at 2000 fps, which I do not find comfortable to shoot in this light rifle, although it isn't unbearable. I've probably only shot a couple hundred of those full-power loads but the rifle handles them with no apparent problem. My normal load is a 300 grain cast bullet at about 1700 fps which is nicer to shoot and more affordable, too. And you could certainly do that same load in a 45 Colt chambered rifle.

The 454 Casull is just a lengthened 45 Colt case which keeps it from being chambered in one of the old revolvers that wouldn't handle the much higher pressure. In the Rossi rifle I'm sure you can load the 45 Colt chambered rifles to be very close to the same velocity you'd get with the Casull. The advantage of getting the Casull chambered rifle is that they have beefed up the magazine tube so it doesn't come detached from the recoil of the full-power loads, plus you can have full-power loads sitting around without worrying that they could be unwittingly used in a regular 45 Colt revolver.

I don't have the 44 mag in a rifle; in my Ruger Redhawk revolver a max load with the 300 grain LBT cast bullet goes about 1350 fps; I'd guess this load would be close to 1800 fps in the rifle. So it approaches the 454 Casull, but is somewhat behind. I doubt an elk would notice much difference, but if you're after griz I'd take the Casull.

[Retro]

The Hornady 300 gr XTP load claims 1650 fps from a handgun, but they use a test barrel of course. I still have to shoot some over a chrony from my Freedom Arms revolver. Shot eight of them at a target two weeks ago and I can still feel my wrist.

454 Casull is way way hotter than the 44 Mag (I've loaded a Blackhawk to 1360 fps with a 250 grain bullet (7 1/2" barrel I think), and my "hot" 45 Colt load is 1120 fps (4" barrel) but it's just hot not max (the 1360 load is primer-flowing hot)).

So compare that to 300 grains at 1650 and yea... 454 is way out there.

I'd love one of the Rossi 454s (have a 38 and a 357).

And then of course there's the 460 S&W because whatever is out there, someone will try to build a bigger better version...

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I would use that brass for high end 45 Colt loads. Just shorten them down to proper length. 454 brass is made heavier for the pressures 454 revolvers (Like the BFR) so hot 45 Colt loads would hardly be an issue. I dought you could ever wear then out.

[slimster]

I love my 20" stainless Rossi. I only have used factory loads as of yet. Win. 260 gr. Partition Golds run at a little better than 2300 out of mine. It's a whole lotta oompf in a trim package.

[tman]

I don't think any game shot with either would know the difference. Both being short range numbers, how much deader would the added velocity become relavant

[sore shoulder]

AJ, have there been a lot of KB's with Marlins lately?

[BAGTIC]

I have one. Wish it was chambered for .45 Colt instead. .45 Colt +P loads are all I want to shoot from a gun that light and .45 Colt brass is a lot cheaper and easier to find. Like the recoil pad and magazine tube.

[AJMD429]

AJ, have there been a lot of KB's with Marlins lately?

I don't know, as you can't really judge 'statistical significance' by tallying up internet posts. I do know that the Marlins seem to have not much steel in places that have a fair amount of stree, just looking at them as a non-engineer, non-metallurgist, type. They are no doubt better design and better steel and stronger than the century-old 45-70's we compare them to. Those guns were not designed for the pressure levels of 'modern' cartridges.

Sure, we see them loaded 'hotter' than the 'Cowboy' level, and most evidently survive and last thousands of rounds. No 'Ruger' loads though.

Personally, I'll keep my 45-70 loads 'mild', since even then, there is plenty of power with that big bullet even at low velocities. If I want more punch I'll use a gun designed from the ground-up for higher pressure levels.

I suppose we'll never know the cause of most KaBooms, and it makes a huge difference whether they are due to inherent design flaws vs. bad reloads or bullets stuck in barrels or whatever. Of course most of the individuals involved claim their ammunition was perfect...

[rogn]

Ive got a 20" SS Rossi in the 45 Colt. Full house but published "Ruger" loads get1700FPS with the Hornady 300 gr XTP. In a 5# carbine it has enough recoil to warant a soft pad. It also will shake the magazine tube free. Ive used some rubber shims and some RTV to "stabilize" the mag tube, and this has ha a positive effect on stay togetherness and accuracy. I think Id be afraidof the power level of the 454. Oh the load I mentioned for the most part exceeds the 30-30 for plain old power, not to mention 45 cal knock down

[Buck Elliott]

"Top-Level" .454 loads approach 65,000psi. That, combined with bullets weighing 300 grains and more, creates situations no 'normal' .44 magnum can even touch.. And yes.. 65,000 psi is the official SAAMI maximum average pressure standard for the cartridge.!

The loads most used, in the rifle I built, were heaving 315 - 325 grain hard-cast slugs at 2100 fps, fueled by heavt doses of H-110, and were "factory equivalent" loadings. These are the loads that wrecked several 94 Winchesters (including a Big Bore), and tore up a 336 Marlin - reducing it to nothing better than scrap metal - in fewer than 25 shots..

After working on a number of .454 Rossi leverguns, I have to say that I just don't trust them. I have encountered a few that had apparently stretched a bit, and virtually every one exhibited stock and/or fore-end problems, not to mention magazine-attachment issues...

In short -- the margin of safety in the Rossi .454 leverguns is uncomfortably slim, for this old cowpoke, at least...

YMMV...

[olyinaz]

"Top-Level" .454 loads approach 65,000psi. That, combined with bullets weighing 300 grains and more, creates situations no 'normal' .44 magnum can even touch.. And yes.. 65,000 psi is the official SAAMI maximum average pressure standard for the cartridge.!

The loads most used, in the rifle I built, were heaving 315 - 325 grain hard-cast slugs at 2100 fps, fueled by heavt doses of H-110, and were "factory equivalent" loadings. These are the loads that wrecked several 94 Winchesters (including a Big Bore), and tore up a 336 Marlin - reducing it to nothing better than scrap metal - in fewer than 25 shots..

After working on a number of .454 Rossi leverguns, I have to say that I just don't trust them. I have encountered a few that had apparently stretched a bit, and virtually every one exhibited stock and/or fore-end problems, not to mention magazine-attachment issues...

In short -- the margin of safety in the Rossi .454 leverguns is uncomfortably slim, for this old cowpoke, at least...

YMMV...

Nope, my mileage was the same. I put a box of Buffalo Bore .454s down range in my Rossi .454 and by the time the box was empty the stock had cracked. The primers were flowing uncomfortably into the bolt face recesses as well, and I wasn't happy with how much the brass was bulging at the rear either (because I know that it's a 65,000 PSI round, and the thought of a case rupture at that pressure sends a chill down MY spine for sure).

Of course it beat the snot out of me to boot! But that's a personal issue. The other items you mention and I feel that I witnessed too? No thank you - it went back to Davidson's and they sent me a Puma 1892 in .45 Colt in its stead.

I don't usually chime in as I know some have them and love them. I just didn't have good luck with one. If I venture into this territory again it'll be with a Big Horn Armory model (I have begun to lust...).

[RIHMFIRE]

well then...I thinks i will cross this one off my wish list and go on to the next one....
The Model 89 in 500 SW from from Big Horn Armory
http://www.gunblast.com/Bighorn89.htm
wonder if production has finally gotten off the ground....
or is it a custom, made to order type thing

[earlmck]

After working on a number of .454 Rossi leverguns, I have to say that I just don't trust them. I have encountered a few that had apparently stretched a bit, and virtually every one exhibited stock and/or fore-end problems, not to mention magazine-attachment issues...

Nope, my mileage was the same. I put a box of Buffalo Bore .454s down range in my Rossi .454 and by the time the box was empty the stock had cracked. The primers were flowing uncomfortably into the bolt face recesses as well, and I wasn't happy with how much the brass was bulging at the rear either (because I know that it's a 65,000 PSI round, and the thought of a case rupture at that pressure sends a chill down MY spine for sure).

Ouch! Those things would get my attention, too. When primers flow into the bolt face and brass bulges you have got on past the 65K psi level. Sounds to me like the Rossi may be producing higher pressure than the Freedom Arms revolver with the factory ammo. I have never shot a factory round out of mine, I figured I was getting a little too much pressure when I started feeling a slight "stickingess" in extraction and I called a halt and backed off a grain (of Lil' Gun). So maybe the fellers who are plumb happy with their 454 Rossi are us reloaders.

Interesting! Thanks for your observations, Buck and Oly. I'll make sure my little baby never gets a round of factory ammo poked through it. Not that that was going to be a problem -- I don't recall shooting a round of factory ammo in any of my guns in the past 40 years. Well, probably have shot some that somebody would have given me but I sure haven't bought any in -- hmmm.... must be more like 50 years...

[Old Savage]

Ross Seyfried wrote an article about shooting heavy loads in 45 colts and the brass and basically said the chambers must be tight. Rossi chambers aren't always tight. My first had a loose chamber and the second a tight chamber that functions well. Seems to me this could affect outcome with regards to pressure quite a bit. Now some folks balk at almost any pressure sign (I am probably toward that end) and others seem to think if the gun didn't blow up they are good to go. This leaves a lot of latitude in between. I see how the Model 99 works at anything over 45,000 and wonder here. To me 65,000 is good bolt action territory and only a couple run at that level. Still as we see here some experienced knowledgeable guys are using these at 454 with good success and one woman has one for bear protection.

[Buck Elliott]

The loads I ran in my rifle were the same loads I shot through my FA .454.. Those rounds zipped along right at 1700 fps from my 7 1/2" revolver. That means I gained 400 fps from the 24" rifle barrel. Rifle chamber measured .480" diameter, the same as the chambers in the FA. Throat and leade were cut to alllow the longest, heaviest Practical bullets, which could be used in both rifle and revolver. Throat diameter was .4520".

In applications like this, pressure is just one force to be reckoned with, while acceleration is another, equally important aspect.. Driving heavier bullets increases the "hammer" effect of firing a round. There must be as little "running room" as possible among and between mating parts in the action.. Any excess "play" will be taken up at an accellerated rate, depending on distances traveled.. The object then, is to eliminate all "play" while still allowing the mechanism to function normally. Each time you hammer those parts with 65,000 psi, at the velocity of the departing bullet, you tisk increasing the gap, due to metal flow, stretching and peening.. That was quickly evidenced in firing the first of the 94 Winchesters that we tested, and was even more pronounced in the 336 Marlin, when we finally got around to that one. Spreading receiver walls and bent/battered locking lug told the story of the Marlin's demise, while receiver wall stretching and metal flow/peening behind the Winchesters' locking lugs revealed the weaknesses of that design..

The unrelenting hammer of the heavier bullets took a greater toll than the sharper pecks from lighter bullets, even at increased velocities..

Bullets tested in my rifle ranged from 240 to 385 grains in weight, which pretty well defines the practical limits of the relatively short cartridge, in both rifle and revolver..

[7.62 Precision]

"Top-Level" .454 loads approach 65,000psi. That, combined with bullets weighing 300 grains and more, creates situations no 'normal' .44 magnum can even touch.. And yes.. 65,000 psi is the official SAAMI maximum average pressure standard for the cartridge.!

After working on a number of .454 Rossi leverguns, I have to say that I just don't trust them. I have encountered a few that had apparently stretched a bit, and virtually every one exhibited stock and/or fore-end problems, not to mention magazine-attachment issues...

Nope, my mileage was the same. I put a box of Buffalo Bore .454s down range in my Rossi .454 and by the time the box was empty the stock had cracked. The primers were flowing uncomfortably into the bolt face recesses as well, and I wasn't happy with how much the brass was bulging at the rear either (because I know that it's a 65,000 PSI round, and the thought of a case rupture at that pressure sends a chill down MY spine for sure).

Of course it beat the snot out of me to boot! But that's a personal issue. The other items you mention and I feel that I witnessed too? No thank you - it went back to Davidson's and they sent me a Puma 1892 in .45 Colt in its stead.

I have not seen any of these issues in the one my wife has, but the stock was split right away (someone knocked it over and then immediately stepped on it, and split it down the wrist) so I repaired the stock, and the method of repair with epoxy and pegs most likely resulted in a stronger stock. The wood that Rossi uses, combined with poor fit on many rifles, makes them prone to splitting, and it is not uncommon in my experience to see the stocks cracking in the wrist area straight from the factory. Combine that with the increased recoil of the .454, and I would expect a lot more splitting that the other calibers see.

I also don't look for max loads with the .454 since it is not really necessary for our purpose - 360 hard cast going a bit slower than max velocities are fine - penetration is everything with a bear - and I am not a worshiper of velocity.

However, before Rossi offered the .454, I had heard a lot about problems people had when really pushing the envelope with .45 Colt model 92s, so even with the improvements Rossi made to handle the .454, I see it as something that we don't want to shoot a lot, since I'm sure the life of the rifle is much shorter in this caliber. As I said before, I don't see it as a shooter - I would much rather have another caliber for this purpose (and we do). Our purpose for the .454 rifle is very specific and limited. Since my wife has shot it enough to know it is reliable, and the size and weight are right, and recoil is very light compared to similar performing rifle cartridges, it fits the purpose very well.

I wonder if the .480 version would be a better choice for this type of rifle, as far a battering of the rifle is concerned?

[Ranch Dog]

Just finished another round of shooting with my new R92 454 Casull, I'm really happy with mine. Worked today with my home cast bullets mainly looking at alloy and what it will take for that alloy to survive at the chamber max. Today's shooting was in the 53.0 KPSI to 57.0 KPSI range. Absolutely no issue with the rifle.

The max load shooting today was 36.1-grains of Lil'Gun with my TLC454-290-RF bullet. I'm seeing 2210 FPS for 3125 FPE at 56.1 KPSI.

As I have said before, it is a beast and I'm not worried about the rifle in the least.

[Old Savage]

Ranch - you must be one tough hombre - not many I think will shoot many 290s at that velocity from that weight gun happily.

[Ranch Dog]

I'm shooting the same bullet out of my R92 in 45 Colt at 35.0 KPSI, as measured with pressure trace equipment, and it delivers more of a crack to the shoulder than the 454 does. I can only shoot 10 at a time from the 45 Colt. I do not notice the recoil while hunting as it comes one shot at a time but the bench is brutal. My nephew was visiting, he is a stout big ole' boy and has always done my heavy shooting for me. Stuff like max loads with the 450 Marlin, etc. I had 20 rounds left with the 45 Colt and told him to be careful as that crescent metal plate with the 90° corners would hurt him. After 20 rounds he told me he would never shoot the rifle again, ever.

I shot the twenty from the 454 today from sandbags without issue. I can feel it in my shoulder but that is it, no pain. I think this model of R92 is a serious hunting rifle and not a range rifle. If you want to plink you could always shoot it at any pressure you want.

The 45 Colt, my 290-grain bullet, and the 35.0 KPSI load is putting out 1775 FPS at 2000 FPE. Today's shooting with the 454 is doing 2210 FPS at 3125 FPE. I'm seeing a SD of about 3 KPSI in the shooting, very typical, so I would not hesitate to run this up to 62.0 KPSI. That little bit of extra pressure over today's shooting will probably bring the velocity to up around 2235 FPS but I'm going to explorer it.

I would rather shoot the R92 at these pressures than some of the 1895 loads that I see posted on various forums.

[Old Savage]

RD - what is that 45 Colt load you discussed? Did you use Lil' Gun for that? The loads (45 Colt) I have are 18.5 grs of Lil' Gun with a 360 gr Keith. 1350 fps from 20".

[Ranch Dog]

My TLC454-290-RF sized to .452", 25.5-grains Lil-Gun, OAL 1.600". 1775 FPS at 34.6K PSI.