Range Report - 45-70 Marlin and Springfield - delayed ignite

[FatJackDurham]

I got a pile of bullets to load, and I want to figure out what the best loads are for my newish Marlin 1895 Cowboy. My friend, Vittles, sent me a some 300, 430 and 500 grain .458 bullets. I came up with some loads based on the Hodgdon site and the Lynman manual. I had intended to load for all projectiles and shoot them but it was so nice out today, I decided to shoot what I had loaded, which was the 300 grains.

I started with the Marlin, and was very quickly frustrated. The marlin cycles very roughly, and and didn't want to close all the way for some rounds. Then, I started geting slow and delayed ingnitions. The chrony was reporting very wide ranges of velocity. Everything was as erratic as I have every seen at the range.

When I switched over to the Springfield 1884 Trapdoor and the first several rounds failed to fire. Each time, I had to drive the projectile out of the barrel.

If I had not read about Muskeg's magazine explosion in a post about round nose bullets, I would have been mystified. However, just yesterday, I learned that Federal primers are "softer" and more volitile than CCI, and I realized that all of the first loads I had tried had been loaded with CCI Large Rifle primers. I had run out and started using Federal Large Rifle primer after.

I came home and re-read the sections on Primers from the Lyman manual and a book on reloading. It said that the possible causes are a primer not suited to the load, an improper cartridge volume that doesn't allow the pressue to build for ignition, and powder being too tightly packed.

I checked the COL, load and case trim of the loads and they all seem fine. I am guess that the CCI primer just isn't a good match for this load.

In all case, the primer ignited and sent the projectile into the bore. I would also get a brown smoke when I would eject the brass, seemingly from the failed burn of the powder, or maybe just from the primer.

I also wonder if my taper crimp isn't tight enough. I was trying not to deform the bullet, and I do a neck resize and neck expand, so the bullet seems firm enough.

Anyway, the load in question is:

300 grain bullet, similar to the Montana Precision Swaging 300 grain bullet
30, 31, 32, 33, 34 grains of H4198
CCI 200 Large Rifle Primer
Winchester Brass, trim to 2.085
COL 2.522

What do you all think?

All of the CCI loads barely worked, or failed, while the Federals all worked much better.

My Lyman manual recommended Remington 9 1/2, but I couldn't get any. I usually use Federal primers, but I guess the last time I went to the gun store they must have been out.

[jmiller]

I shoot a lot of 45-70 and haven't had that problem with any primers I've used. I get good ignition with all of them. I'm taking a guess here but a couple of things come to mind and may or may not be part of the problem. Are you weighing the powder charges on a scale? You're shooting light loads to begin with which in itself shouldn't be a problem but if your charges are under weight that could be contributing to the problem. My gut instinct tells me that you're shooting light loads and taking the cartridges out of the box with the bullet pointed down. When you put the bullet in the gun the powder is all at the bullet end of the case and not at the primer end of the case. This will give erratic or poor ignition with some powders when using light loads. That's why a lot of guys use a puff of dacron or filler on top of the powder charge, to get better and more uniform ignition. I'm sure some more experienced reloaders can jump in and offer some different advice. The other thing that sounds a little odd is that the cartridge is causing some problem going into the chamber. Your COL is correct so this shouldn't cause a problem but something is out of whack there. Which bullet won't go in correctly? All of them or the heavier one?

[Hobie]

Low charges of 4198 not ignited by "magnum" primers will behave in just that way. I moved to magnum primers in the .45-75 WCF and no more such problems even with 29 gr. H4198.

[Chuck 100 yd]

What Hobie said + 1 .
I don1t know why the load books don`t tell us that.
I loaded some 4198 in my .50-95 according to data found from the
Uberti web site and they just popped and stuck a bullet 4-5 in. up the barrel.
Later I found that those loads were way low and that should have been
several grains more.
Try mag. primers with those loads.

[Sixgun]

Chambering issue-------seat your bullets deeper

ignition issue----cast bullets in cold weather? Not enough pressure build up. The primer will start sending the bullet down and the pressure won't build up as the cast bullet has a lot less friction than a jacketed one. Use a dacron filler.

The problem is not with your primers.........I hate fillers. Its a lot easier to use a powder with a higher nitro content such as AA 5744 or Unique in light to medium loads. A pistol primer will set them off.-------------Sixgun

[TedH]

Chambering issue-------seat your bullets deeper

ignition issue----cast bullets in cold weather? Not enough pressure build up. The primer will start sending the bullet down and the pressure won't build up as the cast bullet has a lot less friction than a jacketed one. Use a dacron filler.

The problem is not with your primers.........I hate fillers. Its a lot easier to use a powder with a higher nitro content such as AA 5744 or Unique in light to medium loads. A pistol primer will set them off.-------------Sixgun

+1. If you want light loads with cast bullets 11-13 gr. of Unique will work nicely and doesn't need a filler.

[FatJackDurham]

Thanks for all the feedback. I am glad I am not the only one having this trouble. Based on all the suggestings, here is what I am thinking:

1) hard to close bolt - I am thinking some unignited powder was in the chamber after a bad round. I mic all the rounds as I build them and they are all reasonably uniform to the Lyman diagram.

2) Cold day, cast lead - Could be. I will drop my taper crimp die a thread and make sure they are tight.

3) Low load - I am thinking this is the case. I notice the lyman book refers to IMR 4198, not H4198. The Hornady website shows H4198 Loads as being lighter than IMR, but with lower velocities as well. However, even on good ignition shots with the Federal Primer, my chrony speeds were not even close to the Lyman and Hodgdon load data. I am definitely thinking I should load more for at least this bullet. 300 is a pretty light bullet, and I am only trying it because my friend sent be a box of 600 of them, free. It'd save me some money if I could get a load accurate to 300 yards with them.

4) Filler - Never!!!!!! Well, maybe. My late friend Oakwood Dick showed me brass out of his 1885 that had developed rings in the chamber. He said it happened when he used a particular filler. I don't know if was Dycron, I know rings in chambers are RARE, but he said when he changed to a lighter bullet and no filler, he had no problem, but the first round he shot with filler immediately made a new ring. I'd like to avoid filler if I could, it's another expense I dont want to deal with. The range I use allows velocities up to 1600 FPS, so I should be able to make a fair load without filler. I can change powders if I have to.

5) Magnum primers - I took some empty brass and loaded CCI 200 primers, Federal Large Rifle primers and Federal Large Magnum primers. I shot them in my Springfield in the basement without bullets or powder to see if I could detect a difference. First, let me say, primers are filthy little bastiges, worse than black powder. Anyway, the CCI 200 large rifle primers made a thud, some smoke and one or two sparks out of the long Springfield barrel. The Federal Large Rifle primers made a noticeablyl lowder pop, and consistantly made about two inches of flame out the barrel. The Federal Large Magnum Rifle primers made a still louder pop, six inches of flames, and knocked over some empty 2-liter bottles on a table six feet away from the gun.

I definitely feel the Federal primers had more energy than the CCI, even without the Magnum. Hobie, how much velocity difference did you see between the Large Rifle and Large Magnum Rifle primers? Would using a Magnum ignite more powder faster, increasing the pressure? I'd like to avoid this in my Springfield, although I think H4198 is a slower powder and doesnt develop pressure as fast. But is this a concern?

6) Seat bullets lower - I already trim shorter than the book, and seat lower than the book, so, either the Marlin chamber is just tight and short and needs to be reamed, or there was a grain of powder or some lead.

7) Weighing the powder - Not every load, I would weigh every fiver or so, and I weigh the loaded rounds to make sure there is no empty one. Any round plus or minus 1.5 grains gets checked again. Usually, its the brass.

[Hobie]

I will say again that I am not a fan of fillers. He also asked about 4198, so that's the answer he'll get. I've not seen that much difference between the IMR and H versions, so far. Usually the IMR version will be a bit "faster". I had a very good crimp on my loads and it wasn't particularly cold. Simply switching primers worked. The magnum CCI primers worked, non-magnums didn't ALWAYS work. Velocity of those that lit correctly was about the same judging by impact on the target. Fair group, that. That's my experience. One can use other powders, there's lots that will work.

[FatJackDurham]

I will say again that I am not a fan of fillers. He also asked about 4198, so that's the answer he'll get. I've not seen that much difference between the IMR and H versions, so far. Usually the IMR version will be a bit "faster". I had a very good crimp on my loads and it wasn't particularly cold. Simply switching primers worked. The magnum CCI primers worked, non-magnums didn't ALWAYS work. Velocity of those that lit correctly was about the same judging by impact on the target. Fair group, that. That's my experience. One can use other powders, there's lots that will work.

I'll do a comparison on the chrony between Federal Magnum and regular Large Rifle to see what the difference is.

[Chas.]

I've had the same problem with H4198 - a couple of years ago. I thought it was the powder rather than the primer. Maybe not. Anyway, I quit using it in lower loads. I now use 2400 w/300gr. cast.

[Old Time Hunter]

My smokeless loads of 29 grains of H4198 w/CCI large rifle primers have never, I repeat, never failed to detonate. Very consistant out of all 9 of my original Springfield Trapdoors. Out of my Model 1885 Browning...yes, all kinds of problems with not firing.

[flatnose]

I have shot many 45-70 lead loads using imr4198 with winchester large primers and winchester cases, and never had a problem. The lowest load and most accurate in my 1886 rifle is 34.5 grains of imr 4198 under a 405grn bullet, and never have I used a filler. I tried the 300grn bullets with these loads, and accuracy was not good.....had to switch to 300grn remington bullets with full house loads, which gave good accuracy.
I have not tried them through a trapdoor though.

[FatJackDurham]

My smokeless loads of 29 grains of H4198 w/CCI large rifle primers have never, I repeat, never failed to detonate. Very consistant out of all 9 of my original Springfield Trapdoors. Out of my Model 1885 Browning...yes, all kinds of problems with not firing.

what size bullet? 405?

[FatJackDurham]

Ok, this now seems to indicate that using the 300 grain bullet may not provide enough compression for the CCI primer, which is certainly likely.

[Old Time Hunter]

My smokeless loads of 29 grains of H4198 w/CCI large rifle primers have never, I repeat, never failed to detonate. Very consistant out of all 9 of my original Springfield Trapdoors. Out of my Model 1886 Browning...yes, all kinds of problems with not firing.

what size bullet? 405?

405, sized .459, no GC. COL 2.550

[FatJackDurham]

My smokeless loads of 29 grains of H4198 w/CCI large rifle primers have never, I repeat, never failed to detonate. Very consistant out of all 9 of my original Springfield Trapdoors. Out of my Model 1886 Browning...yes, all kinds of problems with not firing.

what size bullet? 405?

405, sized .459, no GC. COL 2.550

Okay. That is a larger bullet. I compared the lengths of all the bullets I was using and the seating depths. The only step difference is for the 500 grain, which seats about the same depth as the 405. The 430 grain, I seat above the cannelure (spelling?) because otherwise, the first ring pushes into the rifling grooves. I used the same load for the 500 grain as the 300, but even still, the 300 would have had more case volume. I will definitely use the higher loads on the 300.

I'm going down to the gunstore today to see what the have for large rifle primers.

[Bill in Oregon]

Can't speak for your Marlin, but that Springfield is trying to tell you she wants to be fed a proper meal of a case full of lightly compressed black powder! And when you feed her properly, she will reward you with a thundering boom and a lovely smoke ring -- one of the prettiest sights in shooting.

[FatJackDurham]

Can't speak for your Marlin, but that Springfield is trying to tell you she wants to be fed a proper meal of a case full of lightly compressed black powder! And when you feed her properly, she will reward you with a thundering boom and a lovely smoke ring -- one of the prettiest sights in shooting.

Oh, you know it! If I had another single shot rifle like a Remington, or a Sharps, I wouldn't be screwing around with smokeless in this old girl. But, I like to compete in all categories at my club, and smokeless single shot rifle calibur is one of them. And they laugh at me when i use my .22 Stevens. I say, hey, 22LR stands for Long RIFLE! But you cant argue with them.