Is round nose ammo safe

[dracothered]

Hi all, never had to be worried about what ammo I could use in any of my guns before. So is Round Nose Ammo safe to use in a Rossi M92 .357mag rifle? Could the round nose on the slug set off a chain reaction fire in the magazine tube?

[Griff]

Well... there's round, then there's round. I have two Rossi .358/.38Spl mdl 92s and used a round nose bullet in them both when shooting .38Spls. They were a very round nose.

This is a round nose:


And so is this:


I think you can see the difference. Depending on the amount of recoil, one might be perfectly safe, the other; maybe not so much. Soft nose lead projectiles might never set a primer off, but a hard cast or jacketed round nose might. Even tho', I did use a bullet cast of a rather hard alloy cast in the Saeco #391 mold, which is a round nose, very much like the top one above. But, these were light cowboy action loads. I've since begun using a truncated cone bullet instead.

[AJMD429]

What Griff said.

I've used 'pointy' bullets in .38 Special loads and .32-20 loads, both fired from 24" octagonal heavy guns that move little with recoil.

On the other hand, with a .454 Casull or .444 Marlin or .45-70, or even a .44 Mag or .45 Colt hot load in a light gun, I'd not want very much point against the primer(s), but most bullets that large aren't very pointed.

The middle-recoiling ones are the scariest, though; hard to find a .30-30 or .35 Rem bullet that doesn't look like it could set off a primer in front of it. Never had it happen, though. I suppose a jacketed spitzer would be lots worse than the gently-pointed soft-points, though.

[86er]

I've put primed brass w pointy bullets in the mag tube of a Marlin and fired 3 live rounds over them in an experiment to see if it'd fire off the primer in front of the pointy bullet. Didn't happen. Then I unwisely fired pointy bullets in that rifle several times (about 100) and nothing happened. That was a 30-30. Now, many years later I am not willing to repeat the experiment! A lot of factors are to be considered. Free movement in the magazine tube and recoil and probably most important. There is a reason you don't see pointy ammo for Leverguns. Eventually the odds will catch up with you. But look at the 35 Rem that is pretty much loaded with round nose by all the factories. The most common rifle for that cartridge is the Marlin. It was invented for a semi-auto and can be found in single shots too where the bullet profile doesn't matter. But it is also very popular in pump action rifles with a magazine tube! So I've never figured out how 35 Rems never have magazine detonations but we ate warned to worry about the type of round nose you've described. Well, after a long serious talk with myself I figure I don't want to be the example. With so many bullets out there that are safe I just chose something other than round nose - for everything but the 35 Rem! There are plenty of guys here that have shot 100's and 1000's of round nose in their Leverguns. Take in all the information and advice and make your decision.

[Rusty]

Personally I look at it like this...

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots. That comes from ground school 101. Life is a gamble and the only thing you can do to make it as long as possible is to put as many of the odds as possible in your favor. Even then you never know when life comes up with a wild card.

Can you? Sure. Should you? I wouldn't. But frankly with so many other choices out there I wouldn't want to shoot round noses for a lot of other reasons too. Like poor performance as the main reason. There have been chain reactions in the past a another reason.

[J Miller]

Using Griff's pictures: I would not shoot full house .357s with the hard cast bullet in the first pic. On the other hand I wouldn't hesitate to shoot 38 level loads with either of them.
The softer bullet in pic 2 would most likely be safe even in the .357 level loads as it's softer and they do use the lead nosed round nose bullet in the 30-30s and 35 Rems as 86er mentioned.

Seriously the answer is; yes, but ...............


Joe

[olyinaz]

Well, there's my very strongly held personal opinion on the matter, and there's what I will put on the internet. They do not match.

And that's all I'll say about it.

Oly

[earlmck]

So is Round Nose Ammo safe to use in a Rossi M92 .357mag rifle? Could the round nose on the slug set off a chain reaction fire in the magazine tube?

Yes. No.

So I've never figured out how 35 Rems never have magazine detonations but we ate warned to worry about the type of round nose you've described.

This whole "detonation in the tubular magazine" was something dreamed up by the advertising department for the Savage 95 rifle and has since been repeated by 5 or 6 generations of gun writers who never bothered testing it out. Somehow they overlooked the 35 Remington and we get to have factory ammo with a fairly pointy bulletin that cartridge. Never a problem 'cause there is no problem: you can't set off a primer with a soft-point bullet, no matter what its shape.

Of course, this is all just crazy Earl's personal opinion. Here's why I think it, though: http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... r+magazine

[handirifle]

I have never tested any of mine, nor this theory, but I have read many times, that the point or tip of the bullets do not lie against the primer in a tube magazine anyway. The claim is they tip downward while in the magazine and don't even contact the primer.

I spose if someone made a plastic tube magazine and loaded it full we could see. Personally, I cannot imagine any of the calibers mentioned causing enough force directly on the primers to actually cause one to ignite. It would be interesting to see just how many PSI is generated by the tip of the firing pin to cause detonation. I know on mu Savage bolt rifles when I have reset the pin protrusion through the bolt head, those springs are VERY strong, and all that strength is concentrated on about a 1/32" dia circle, of a very hardened steel pin. No way is that much force generated against the primer from the round surface of an even "hard" lead bullet.

That said, and this being the age of lawsuits brought by people killing others with empty guns, don't use them.

JMHO

[Griff]

Y'all are ignoring a differentiating factor in the discussion. There are straight wall cases, and there are bottlenecked cases. Here are my .38 Special Cowboy Action loads laid end to end on a flat surface, much as they might be in a magazine. (Tho' they're not lined up directly behind each other... kept wanting to roll around, but I think you see the amount of contact they have on the primer in front). Again, these are light recoiling rounds, with a very wide radius to the nose, I think you can see where the point might be if they were a pointy bullet.


Now, take the regular .30-30 rounds that I use for my Winchesters, 150 grain flat nose 150 grain Sierras. While the flat does contact the primer, there's just as much touching the rim. And, if I pictured how much deformation was in the nose of the aft bullet, you'd be shocked. Those rounds had been loaded in my coyote gun for several years, and had been recoiled against many times. (Since changed for some new rounds)!


Followed by Remington factory 150 grain Core-Lokt.


The relationship is very different between a bottle-neck and a straight-walled cases. I don't believe that one can use the relationship one bears upon the other in a tubular magazine as justification for the other.

[retmech]

Easy enough to prove or disprove. Take a primed case and put it in a vise. Take a hard cast ,soft cast whatever cast round nose and put the nose against the primer. Now hit the base of the round nose sharply with a hammer. I have tried this many times leaving the imprint of the primer in the nose of a bullet but never fired a primer. To each his own, I don't worry about it.

[Hobie]

Hi all, never had to be worried about what ammo I could use in any of my guns before. So is Round Nose Ammo safe to use in a Rossi M92 .357mag rifle? Could the round nose on the slug set off a chain reaction fire in the magazine tube?

The short answer is no. N O.

This has been tested, tried, evaluated and mostly debunked. The conditions necessary to create an unsafe condition are very specific and not at all probable with the .357 Mag rifle. About like winning the Mega-ball lottery 7 weeks in a row.

[muskeg13]

Yeah, the "experts" have spoken. Don't worry about it. Nothing will probably ever happen.

DSC00106.JPG

DSC00110.JPG

DSC00115.JPG

[dracothered]

Yeah, the "experts" have spoken. Don't worry about it. Nothing will probably ever happen.

DSC00106.JPG

DSC00110.JPG

DSC00115.JPG

Give a little detail of the above picture. You know like when, where, what gun and what ammo. Without back ground info those pictures are of no real use.

[Hobie]

Yeah, the "experts" have spoken. Don't worry about it. Nothing will probably ever happen.

DSC00106.JPG

DSC00110.JPG

DSC00115.JPG

Give a little detail of the above picture. You know like when, where, what gun and what ammo. Without back ground info those pictures are of no real use.

Perhaps that's not what's intended...

That is a .44 Mag. More mass. Don't know what powder or primer and can't be certain of which bullet. Plus, I see only one case (?).

[mikld]

Jes a thought; when stacked in a magazine tube, don't all cartridges move at the same time under recoil? Wouldn't the cartridge in in back need to be stationary to set off the primer of the front cartridge (recoil moving front cartridge back, with force, against the bullet of the rear cartridge)? If the cartridges are snug together, kept there by the magazine spring, where would the movement needed to gain inertia come from? Jes wonderin'...

[williamranks]

I posted an article about tube mag safety from a old Gun Digest somewhere, must have been Marlin Owners and I can't even remember my login over there.
I have the DVD set from Gun Digest and when I find the article I'll post it here.

[earlmck]

muskeg13 has some dramatic pictures there. As one of only about two "experts" that said "roundnose bullets = no problem" and everybody else says "it's a real concern", I would like to know more details from Mr. Muskeg.

A fellow named R.W. Balleu did some tests on in-the-magazine detonations, published in Gun Digest and Handloader Magazine, produced some results similar to what muskeg13 shows, but he had to build a device for setting off the cartridge in the magazine. Essentially he assumed the detonation could happen and then looked at what the result would be. He concluded it would scare you but not really harm you.

I wanted to know if you could really get a round to detonate. I used this rifle:

Loaded4546538.jpg

Rossi M92 in 454 Casull with 300 grain Hornady XTP at max load using Lil' Gun (a bit over 2000 fps).
I built this for a "firing cartridge"

FiringPin6501.jpg

Cut off a piece of chain-saw file and ground to shape using my Model 70 firing pin as a pattern and epoxied into Hornady XTP. I had to wrap the tape that way to level up the cartridge enough to hit the center of the primer of the cartridge ahead, otherwise the strike was too far to the side to have any chance of detonation. After 50 rounds touched off I was able to create a primer (Federal Large Pistol, which is the easiest primer to fire I could find in my testing) looking like this:

fiftyrounds6507.jpg

but I could never come close to setting the thing off. And that is why I concluded there was "no worries, mate".

Since that time I have blithely loaded whatever shape bullet I dang well felt like in any tubular magazine I possess. So yeah, I'd like more details. If I'm wrong I'd like to know about it.

[williamranks]

I found the file on tube mag safety from Gun Digest but, it's a pdf and I can't seem to attach it to a post.
If someone smarter that I am can make it work I'll email it to you.

[Chas.]

mikld, I think you're on the right track. When the recoil occurs, the gun jerks backward. The inertia would move the cartridges in the mag forward (relative to the gun). When the recoil ceases, the mag spring would slam the cartridges back home. If this is correct, the probability of detonation is relative to the strength of the recoil spring, not the recoil itself.

[FatJackDurham]

I have never heard of any other case of it happening in modern times except that Muskeg article.

I think the best way to test without destroying a gun would be :

1) to take a think still pipe of a diameter to past the round,
2) Load rounds with Primer, filler and bullet BUT NO POWDER
3) Place one round in the bottom and drop the other down the pipe

Try to determine the height needed for the drop to set off the primer. Calculate the mass and kinetic energy.

Then, weigh ten rounds ( full magazine ) and if possible measure he spring rate of the magazine spring. At that point, calculate the maximum possible KE that the first two rounds would acheive durring cycling to see if it compares to the tube drop.

The greatest risk of detonation would be :

1) Horizontal - Few enough rounds that the spring moves the rounds rearward at the fastest speed during cycling or firing.
2) Vertically Cycling a full magazine of heavy rounds, causing maximum mass drop on the last and second to last round
3) Vertically dropping a rifle on the butt with a fully loaded magazine of heavy rounds.

I imagine, larger magnum rounds like the 44 with heavy bullets and full of powder would have a greater chance of detonating than lighter rounds of 357 in comparison.

I think another risk, is if the primer isnt fully seated, it is more likely to take the full brunt of the bullet than if its well seated.

I have run round bullets, even jacketed in my Rossi 357. My mag spring is lightened, and with cowboy loads, there is very little kick or violence.

That being said the conventional wisdom is NOT to do this. Why risk it? The BC isnt so much better with a round bullet at .357 ranges that it matters, terminal ballistics are better with soft nose or hollow point, LSWC or RNFP bullets load just fine... so why risk it?

[muskeg13]

I take it a bit personally when so called "experts" claim that tube magazine explosions are either an urban legend or at least the risks and danger involved is overblown. After reconstructive facial and dental surgery, I walk around every day with permanent scars and nerve damage to remind me: Magazine explosions are a very real occurrence that should be taken seriously.

Sunday 23 May 2004, Delta Sportsman's Range, Delta Junction, Alaska. Rossi M92 .44 Mag. New W-W cases, Fed 150, 200 gr plain base cast lead FLAT nose (and not a particularly hard alloy), 11.0 gr Unique. 8 rounds were loaded into the magazine. On firing the second shot, all 6 rounds remaining in the magazine tube went off at once. Look at the photos and decide for yourself if you'd say they detonated. Multiple brass and lead fragments and powder residue particles were removed from my face in several surgeries over the next week. Minute lead, brass and powder particles worked their way to the surface over the course of the next year. The force of the explosion drove the magazine follower through my cheek/upper lip, breaking and knocking out a front tooth, chipped several other teeth and created a .75" diameter wound. One brass fragment, approximately 3/8" diameter lodged itself in the bone between my nose and upper lip.

All 6 cartridges went off to one degree or another. Too much gas was immediately generated to be vented off safely. The magazine tube plug and spring blew out of the muzzle end and were never recovered. The magazine tube itself blew out of the receiver and flared open, spewing shrapnel and debris directly into my face. The loading gate was blown outward from the receiver. Several of the cartridge case heads and lead bullets lodged in the receiver, under the carrier, although at least one bullet struck me on the left collarbone and created a deep bruise. After the magazine follower struck me it continued its rearward flight and was recovered 25 yards behind the firing line. Needless to say, the forend shattered into splinters.

I corresponded with R.W. Balleu (sp?) after his article in Handloader (or was it Rifle?), guessing that a high primer was probably the cause of my accident. He send me a very nice handwritten letter in response which I filed away in such a safe place that I can't locate it now, but the jist of his letter was:
Yes, magazine explosions while fortunately rare, can happen and can cause severe injury. In my case, he said not to be too quick to blame a high primer. He pointed out that several factors may have contributed to the ignition, and certainly made things worse.

First, the fat, straight sided .44 Mag case... places the cartridges in direct alignment with each other so the nose of the bullets contact the rear of the case ahead of it, fully over the primer pocket, and the fat case takes up almost all of the space in the mag tube, so there's less room for any gas to expand and dissipate. A bottle shaped/tapered case, particularly one with a large rim, is much safer in this respect.

Next, Unique is an easily ignited fast burning powder that produces a lot of gas immediately and once any is ignited, all is consumed. The same factors that make Unique good for reduced loads in large cases, worked against me in this accident. If I'd used a slower burning or less readily ignitable powder, there is little risk of a chain detonation. With slow burning powder, at worst one or two rounds may have gone off, and even then the powder would have probably only been partially consumed.

Next, my choice of Federal 150 pistol primers meant I'd picked the most sensitive primer on the market.

Next, the Rossi magazine tube is not threaded into the receiver like on a Winchester M1886 or M71. If it had been screwed into the receiver, it may have held in place as the large volume of gas and material were seeking to escape. If the magazine tube had remained fixed in the receiver, the main force of the explosion would have been contained within the action.

Finally, the relatively soft cast lead bullets may have been the source of ignition, and once one round had gone off, led to all of the cartridges in the magazine going off. I had originally loaded 10 rounds in the magazine, shot several times, and loaded several fresh rounds. It's possible that the lead bullets in one or more of the first cartridges deformed under recoil and extruded into the primer pocket of the cartridge ahead of it. Looking at the photos, you can see that this definitely happened in all cartridges once the first one went off.

DSC00109.JPG

DSC00113.JPG

DSC00114.JPG

DSC00112.JPG

[FatJackDurham]

Interesting. I use federal primers and cci. How am I to know if a primer is more or less sensitive? I usually just ask for Large Rifle or Small Pistol. I didnt know some are more sensitive than other.

[dracothered]

Here is the Tubular Magazines are Safe article that williamranks tried to upload on here. So I put it on my storage site so it can be shared.


Tubular Magazines are Safe

[dracothered]

Hey muskeg13 I'm sorry to hear about what happened to you and your .44 lever gun. But I have to wonder if what you had happen wasn't due to all the things you said and it created the prefect storm.

Let me ask you one thing, have you ever hand loaded for this type of gun before and was your load a standard load or was it a little on the hot side?

What I'm looking to do is shoot factory ammo out of my .38/.357 M92. I don't have the ability to hand load yet and don't plan on it any time soon.

[muskeg13]

[quote]Interesting. I use federal primers and cci. How am I to know if a primer is more or less sensitive? I usually just ask for Large Rifle or Small Pistol. I didnt know some are more sensitive than other.[quote]

You can either google the subject or do a search on a reloading website forum about primer sensitivity (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forum.php?). Less sensitive primers are also known as "hard" primers and more sensitive primers are also known as "soft" primers. Generally speaking, rifle primers are much less sensitive (harder) than are pistol primers, and from my experience, and from what I've read on the subject, Federal primers are more sensitive/softer/easier to ignite than are other primers available to reloaders. Conversely, CCI and Russian Wolf primers are often labeled "hard" primers. Primer sensitivity seems to be an issue for some semiautos prone to slam fires. I've done some shooting in really cold temperatures, like at -20F and colder, and while Remington primers have led to a few misfires, Federal primers always seem to work, even with light firing pin strikes. Most of the time, this is a good thing.

[FatJackDurham]

Hey muskeg13 I'm sorry to hear about what happened to you and your .44 lever gun. But I have to wonder if what you had happen wasn't due to all the things you said and it created the prefect storm.

Let me ask you one thing, have you ever hand loaded for this type of gun before and was your load a standard load or was it a little on the hot side?

What I'm looking to do is shoot factory ammo out of my .38/.357 M92. I don't have the ability to hand load yet and don't plan on it any time soon.

Learning to reload is well worth it. Its not as expensive or hard as you might think. That being said, if you need ammo for cowboy shooting, you can buy it on Buffalo Arms. If you are shooting targets, you can get soft point bullets. You should be able to find LSWC, or lead, semi waddcutter if you check your gun storres.

[muskeg13]

I have to wonder if what you had happen wasn't due to all the things you said and it created the prefect storm.

Precisely! What happened to me, if not being caused by, was at least exacerbated by tolerance stack-up, the perfect storm. This is the point. It can happen. It's not a myth, but fortunately it is a very rare occurrence that can be avoided if you take certain precautions. I like Federal primers, but I no longer use them in a rifle with a tube magazine. Federal rifle primers might be completely safe, but in .44 Mag, I have to use large pistol primers. Why tempt fate (again)? If I can get Winchester, Remington or CCI pistol primers, why not use them in a tube mag situation? I also will use one of the slower burning powders in a tube mag application.

When I rebuilt my "blown up" carbine, I drilled gas relief holes in the mag tube, so I'll never have the same thing happen again.

Let me ask you one thing, have you ever hand loaded for this type of gun before and was your load a standard load or was it a little on the hot side?

I have never fired a single round of factory ammo in this gun, but having used it in cowboy action shooting, I have shot thousands of rounds in it. In fact, other than for shotguns, .22 rimfire and some military surplus ammo in odd calibers, I haven't fired a single round of factory ammo in more than 20 years! This particular load had a little stouter powder load than what I used for cowboy action shooting, but was not hot. It was a middle of the road load.

For you, using a .357 Mag which generates less recoil and has less bullet mass, the likelyhood of a rare chain fire is very very very low. I would not be afraid to shoot a factory loaded BLUNT round nose lead bullet.

Now a question to you. Why not reload? Unless you are rich, and if you do much shooting at all, you really need to reload. If it's about the start-up economics, begin with a very low cost Lee Loader..but you'll need a decent digital powder scale and a current reloading manual. Even if you decide not to start reloading now, get yourself a used Lyman 47..better 48 or best and latest #49 reloading manual from Amazon.com or other second hand source to read all of the great foundation material.

[dracothered]

I have to wonder if what you had happen wasn't due to all the things you said and it created the prefect storm.

Precisely! What happened to me, if not being caused by, was at least exacerbated by tolerance stack-up, the perfect storm. This is the point. It can happen. It's not a myth, but fortunately it is a very rare occurrence that can be avoided if you take certain precautions. I like Federal primers, but I no longer use them in a rifle with a tube magazine. Federal rifle primers might be completely safe, but in .44 Mag, I have to use large pistol primers. Why tempt fate (again)? If I can get Winchester, Remington or CCI pistol primers, why not use them in a tube mag situation? I also will use one of the slower burning powders in a tube mag application.

When I rebuilt my "blown up" carbine, I drilled gas relief holes in the mag tube, so I'll never have the same thing happen again.

Let me ask you one thing, have you ever hand loaded for this type of gun before and was your load a standard load or was it a little on the hot side?

I have never fired a single round of factory ammo in this gun, but having used it in cowboy action shooting, I have shot thousands of rounds in it. In fact, other than for shotguns, .22 rimfire and some military surplus ammo in odd calibers, I haven't fired a single round of factory ammo in more than 20 years! This particular load had a little stouter powder load than what I used for cowboy action shooting, but was not hot. It was a middle of the road load.

For you, using a .357 Mag which generates less recoil and has less bullet mass, the likelyhood of a rare chain fire is very very very low. I would not be afraid to shoot a factory loaded BLUNT round nose lead bullet.

Now a question to you. Why not reload? Unless you are rich, and if you do much shooting at all, you really need to reload. If it's about the start-up economics, begin with a very low cost Lee Loader..but you'll need a decent digital powder scale and a current reloading manual. Even if you decide not to start reloading now, get yourself a used Lyman 47..better 48 or best and latest #49 reloading manual from Amazon.com or other second hand source to read all of the great foundation material.

I have thought about getting started in reloading and may just have to do that with what is going on. As it is I have saved my brass from when I shoot most of the time.

[earlmck]

Wow! That's quite the experience you had there, muskeg. Thanks for sharing it. As one of the "experts" saying it wouldn't happen I needed to be told.

But looking at what happened to you, wasn't it the cartridge sitting on the lifter and in position to be chambered for your third shot that had to be the one to touch off first? In that case, bullet shape had nothing to do with the initial detonation because there would have been no bullet touching the primer of the first round to detonate. And that one back inside the rifle action fired, causing the magazine to be expelled while the others were in the process of firing resulted in the seriousness of the damage?

Ballou never tested that scenario because neither he nor anybody else could imagine that happening; his tests all assumed it would be a round within the magazine with a pointy bullet behind it that would be the initial detonator.

[muskeg13]

I'm not sure which round went off first, but the ones closest to the magazine follower had been in the magazine the longest and had been subject to multiple recoil shocks. It all happened in a flash, the instant I pulled the trigger. The fired cartridge in the chamber extracted easily and was perfectly normal. The barrel, receiver and bolts were fine which allowed me to replace, repair and get the rifle back into operating condition.

The main force of the explosion seemed to be rearward, both directly back into the action and down and to my left from forehead to collarbone. My most serious injury was the magazine follower hitting me in the cheek, and this would have to be after the last cartridge was expelled rearward. Although the forend shattered, there was no damage to my left hand, maybe just a few very small splinters.

In several of the cartridges, bullets were telescoped back into their cases (see photo). The amount of case remaining varied from most of the case to just the case head. It's been more than 8 years now, and I didn't take photos step-by-step as I dissected the wreckage, but I believe I discovered the partial remains of at least 3, maybe 4, rounds wedged back in the nooks and crannies of the action. One was sticking half out of the loading gate and at least 2 were wedged up under the carrier, which I had to pry out before I could open the action. The case that was rearmost under the carrier was in relatively better condition than the ones the ended up in a more foreward position.

There was no appreciable amount of unburned powder.

[mikld]

mikld, I think you're on the right track. When the recoil occurs, the gun jerks backward. The inertia would move the cartridges in the mag forward (relative to the gun). When the recoil ceases, the mag spring would slam the cartridges back home. If this is correct, the probability of detonation is relative to the strength of the recoil spring, not the recoil itself.

Now this sounds more plausible, rather than a cartridge just hitting the cartridge in front of it...

[Griff]

You say this was a Rossi 1892 in .44RemMag? I wonder if you didn't have some breakage you might not have been aware of on the carrier?



With the bolt forward, in battery, the next round should have been setting on top of the carrier, having been realeased from the magazine after the carrier pushed the cartridge stop outward. The carrier, unless out of position, would be in the "down" position, and the case rim against the cartridge stop on top of the carrier, effectively shutting off any access under the carrier.

Now it is certainly plausible that with all the releasing gases and movemnt of various pieces of brass and bullet, the carrier got forced out of position, but I'm not so sure. One of the many complaints about the Rossi 1892 is the very strength of that detent spring that holds the carrier down. I wonder if the carrier didn't get pushed down fully, and the bottom edge of the carrier came into contact with the 1st round in the magazine, causing it to detonate. And as in cases where rounds have fired outside a chamber, the usual support of the bolt wasn't present, so brass tends to become the projectile, not the bullet, and it deflected downward under the carrier. Was any damage present on the carrier?

[earlmck]

I continue to be fascinated by muskeg's experience. Griff, I think you may be on to it: somehow the rear-most cartridge got some sort of contact with steel and also was waaaay over sensitive and got set off. I was looking at the cartridge stop on top of the carrier as being the culprit, though looking at my own rifles it doesn't look like any of them could make such contact. but if the carrier didn't drop quite down into position, like you say, it could be in position to contact the primer. Could happen 10000 times without setting off a primer but muskeg maybe was 10001.

For you fellows wondering about primer sensitivity between the brands, in the process of my little experimentation I built a primer sensitivity testing rig using a couple screen-door springs and a fish de-liar. Like noted previously the Federal L.P. was the easiest to set off, but both CCI and Winchester were only slightly harder. The Remington primer, however, took notably more "whack" to set off. And those were the only brands I had on hand to test at the time. But once again, I couldn't set off even the Federal primer in the magazine firing 50 rounds with a firing pin squarely contacting the primer of the test case.

I've been relying heavily on Mr. Ballou's tests which showed that even if a round went off in the magazine it wouldn't cause all that much damage. But muskeg's experience shows that Mr. Ballou didn't account for all the damaging possibilities. Hmmmm.... and my 35 Remingtons all like the Hornady 180 grain spitzer, and I've been shooting them. And Remington used to load (maybe still does) a 160 grain spitzer in the 35 Remington. But then, it doesn't appear to me that bullet shape had anything to do with muskeg's experience: how would you get anything less hazardous than the full-out flat-nose bullet he was using?

[dracothered]

Would there be a difference between a flat nose soft point and a flat nose FMJ round in the .38 or .357 MG being used in a Rossi M92 rifle?

[muskeg13]

Was any damage present on the carrier?

I don't remember any significant damage to the carrier. It wasn't replaced. It's been 8 years, and now I'm wondering if the carrier was full up or was fully down. It was jammed in place by the cartridge cases that had blown back and couldn't be worked free until I pried the cartridge cases out of the way. I'm sorry that I didn't take pictures as I worked on the rifle.

[Griff]

Was any damage present on the carrier?

I don't remember any significant damage to the carrier. It wasn't replaced. It's been 8 years, and now I'm wondering if the carrier was full up or was fully down. It was jammed in place by the cartridge cases that had blown back and couldn't be worked free until I pried the cartridge cases out of the way. I'm sorry that I didn't take pictures as I worked on the rifle.

Forensics on rifle or handgun blowups are always fraught with mystery. No worries or anything to be sorry for. It is what it is... a mystery... all we can do is guess.

But, being as the carrier nose is sorta protected by the lower web of the frame, it seems unlikely that you'd have brass under the carrier unless the firing happened while the carrier was at least partially in the up position. Not saying that it couldn't have been lifted by the first round going off, then the brass from a subsequent round cooking got stuck under there. But, being human, and experienced (if only minimally) in brief catastrophic events (firefights can be like that), to know that memory can be compressed, or an event that takes micro-seconds seems like it was minutes. So I'll embarrass neither of us by asking the obvious question.

[FatJackDurham]

Would there be a difference between a flat nose soft point and a flat nose FMJ round in the .38 or .357 MG being used in a Rossi M92 rifle?

No, either is acceptible.

[Gallo Pazzesco]

Gotta love these discussions.

Who knows.

I'm of the belief, better safe than sorry. I mean, hey, why take the chance?

[Nath]

Don't lighten mag springs. They may be that weight for a reason!

N.

[765x53]

We have all herd the warnings about pointed bullets in a tubular magazine.
I have never seen any firearm or ammunition manufacturer caution about round nose bullets.
I believe people are seeing problems where none exist.

[Pete44ru]

.

Evidently, Remington thought a tubular magazine being dangerous enough, that as early as 1911, they designed their Model 14/141 CF pumpguns with a spiral magazine that offset bullet noses from the primer of the cartridge ahead of it in the magazine.





.

[1894c]

This has been a very good thread... I deeply appreciate the input from muskeg13, after reading his account all I can say is wow...caution is a word that needs to remembered, especially when we hang-out with things that go bang... :O

[rbertalotto]

Are you folks aware that in cowboy action shooting there have been magazine blowups on Winchester 1860 rifles where the cartridges are loaded from the front. If the rifle is vertical and the cartridges I just left to drop down one on top of the other a few times there have been cartridges that have detonated.
I have not personally witnessed this but there are many many stories about it. Anyone else aware of this or has anyone witness this happening.

[Nath]

Are you folks aware that in cowboy action shooting there have been magazine blowups on Winchester 1860 rifles where the cartridges are loaded from the front. If the rifle is vertical and the cartridges I just left to drop down one on top of the other a few times there have been cartridges that have detonated.
I have not personally witnessed this but there are many many stories about it. Anyone else aware of this or has anyone witness this happening.

This is pausable as percussion is involved.
Hence my earlier comment, don't lighten the magazine spring in all the action types. An important aspect of its work is to dampen out percussion!

N.

[Griff]

Are you folks aware that in cowboy action shooting there have been magazine blowups on Winchester 1860 rifles where the cartridges are loaded from the front. If the rifle is vertical and the cartridges I just left to drop down one on top of the other a few times there have been cartridges that have detonated.
I have not personally witnessed this but there are many many stories about it. Anyone else aware of this or has anyone witness this happening.

I have not witnessed it, but have seen a few pics of one where that is what was claimed. I don't take the chance... I load mine rather slowly, at a rather shallow angle.

[Grizz]

sorry for the personal damage. glad you recovered.

one question, was the mag follower metal or plastic?

another question, someone posited that the balloon in the marlin mag was a culprit in mag detonations... does the rossi have the pregnant magazine too?

one thought, perhaps the best take-away is to drill gas relief holes in the magazines. think I will. I shoot hard cast in 45/70s and 44s.

Grizz

[hayabusa]

earlmck, when you experimented with the epoxied pin in the round was the cartridges in front loaded with powder, sand or anything to give a full regular weight to the cartridges in the magazine tube? Like primer, powder, bullet. I was not understanding from my reading of your post. It seemed like a great test to me.

hayabusa

[mikld]

Hmmm. Lots of opinions, both ways (yep, they'll blow up, and nope you're safe). I happen to believe that a "bullet to primer Kaboom" is very possible. And I fully understand "just because" discussions! But, here's another idea; what's the advantage of a pointy bullet in a levergun?

How much ballistic advantage, at say 100-150 yards, does a spire point or round nose have over a flat point or a truncated cone? My findings with a single shot 30-30 (I'm just an experimenter/tinkerer) I have found no real advantage, accuracy wise of premium 150-168 jacketed spire point bullets over cast 160 gr. flat nose or 173 gr. flat nose bullets, but I have not tried the experiment on game. As I understand at short range, 200 yards and under, a round nose bullet is equal to a spire point, ballistically. In other words, why bother? If one just wants to know how pointy bullets preform in a tubular magazine gun, the gun can be used as a "Two Shooter".

Personally, I don't bother as I have a good mold for a RNFP bullet for my .44 Puma...

[bdhold]

classy thread guys - great demonstrations, all.