Ethics of pricing firearms during 'panics'

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:47 pm

I am more in the 'streamlining' mode of late, as I've put the finishing touches on a lifetime of collecting, and just have a few 'gems' I'd like to go for that are out-of-reach price-wise at the moment. However, part of the 'streamlining' is selling off a few duplicates or guns I just couldn't 'bond' with (work fine and all that, but just looked better in the salesroom than they do in-hand).

I've sold a few over the years, sometimes to stores, sometimes to friends at unrealistically low prices, and sometimes for a few dollars profit. However with the 'fiscal cliff' hitting, money for all of us is getting tight, and my own business is projected to run in the negative for several months until I complete the tedious 'withdraw from Medicare' process, due to Medicare's "23% pay cut" (which is really a 200% pay since office visits for Medicare patients only have a profit-margin of about 10% on a good day).

Now I hear opportunity knocking, in that may of the guns I have been considering as 'on the bubble' sale-wise, are going up in value tremendously.

So - what's the ethical way to deal with it - if I can get $1,000 for a Mini-14 in a few weeks, or $2,000 for an AR-15, is it "gouging", or merely a savvy-investment come true? I know guys who have used their gun-collection as essentially their vacation-fund or part of their retirement-fund, and take it very seriously. For me it has never been more than a hobby, but it's always nice to have a hobby that 'pays for itself' at least in part. Besides, I could use the dough...!

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:09 pm

I just sold an as-new AR, at the LGS, as a consignment. The shop manager said he would not consign it if I was going to try and take advantage, of the panic. Price it a little higher, but not 50%-100% more than I paid. We priced it so that I would receive about 95%, of what I had in it, which was still below the MSRP. It sold within an hour of being in the rack, but since there was a 3-5 hour delay, in the state "instant" background check I pick up the check today.

Another local shop is only allowing 1 P-Mag per person and they doubled the price to $25. I sold the AK mags I had listed, in the classifieds, over on another board. They were fairly priced and had multiple "I'll take 'em" emails.

It's a matter of ethics, but it's your business to do as you please. The market determines their value, but like used car salesmen say, "there's a butt, for every seat."

Mac in Mo · Post by **Mac in Mo** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:10 pm

Isn't that called Capitalism? What the market will bear, what someone is willing to pay.
One of my firearms "mentors" has invested wisely over the years in guns, just for the purpose
of supplementing his retirement income, and it has and still is paying off.

Kevin

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:14 pm

Guns are worth what they are bringing on the day you are selling. Sometimes it's a little hard to figure what that is, but that's all you can say about "value".

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:32 pm

I've paid too much for guns, and, I suspect I'll sell them for what I can get out of them. To see a gun that was cost +10% one day jump to MSRP or higher the next is a little troubling. Luckily, a couple days ago when I snagged the Ruger Scout, they had not gone tactical as of yet and I got it for a good price. Capitalism is King.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:32 pm

Mac in Mo wrote:One of my firearms "mentors" has invested wisely over the years in guns, just for the purpose of supplementing his retirement income, and it has and still is paying off.

I also heard that if you make too-high a 'profit' that the ATF will say you were "engaging in the business", so what are the real-world rules on that...???

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:33 pm

If there are multiple buyers it is the market value. I could see a shop being sensitive to used and consignment prices as they need to take a longer view. Private sales are different. A good lever ready to hunt is worth more in September than February, unless you live in spring bear country. All markets have cycles. In a couple years you may wish you had asked more if the law changes a bit! Our restricted military gun market is very pricey. The purchaser is happy with the added cost weighed against the future risk.

Personally I am always amazed what people pay for worn out Winchesters. Sorry, I meant treasured collectable historical firearms. No-one calls collectors gougers, and they shouldn't, because it is the marketplace they play in. Me, I'm happy playing in the plain jane deer rifle market and avoid our restricted marketplace.

Asking the question makes it clear your no gouger or rascal. Just an honest guy with a pricey hobby and bills to pay. Boy, does that tune ring a bell!

arjunky · Post by **arjunky** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:35 pm

I took a lower to local shop yesterday and traded for something else I wanted. I still came out ahead $50-$75. Wasn't trying to make a killing. Could have put on Gunbroker and doubled+ if I wanted too.
They have been good to me in past and I try and treat them the same.
On the other hand the other AR I took in for consignment, I've got $1800 in it and if I can't get $2400 out of it I'm not selling, If someone wants it more than me, more power to them. Shoots too good to give away.

Byron

wecsoger · Post by **wecsoger** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:45 pm

Now I'll catch it over this, but...there is no such thing as 'price gouging'.

Doesn't matter if I paid a penny or a thousand for an item. That's irrelevant to you and how I set a price. Everyone is a consenting adult and the buyer can always walk away and go somewhere else.

I've posted about the 'gun show prices' before, but that's their product, they choose what they write on the tag when they throw it on the table.

So saying, I have engaged in charity before. I've "bought" guns from a guy and held them when he needed the money. Gave them back with no compensation years later when he was still on hard times because I knew he still needed the money. I'm sure he pawned them the next day, couple of them I would have liked to keep.

Paid more than a fair price from a couple other guys who were in the middle of a divorce, job problems, "other" issues. Sometimes I really didn't have the $$, but I wanted to help out. In all situations they named a price and sometimes I even paid a little more.

I don't lie about the condition of anything I sell and if there's a problem, I make sure the buyer knows what he's getting. If I have a crack, or something covered with with cold blue, I'm pointing it out even if I have to use a magnifying glass.

But if someone came along and said they wanted an AR at any price right now, I'd probably start at $1500. Or maybe more, I don't know. Prolly $50 a mag too.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:55 pm

Wow,
I could make a fortune right now.

92&94 · Post by **92&94** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:03 pm

I would tell you not to worry much about it, for a number of reasons.

First and foremost, the people driving this bubble are simply not shooting enthusiasts. Most are buying something they perceive to be undervalued right now, counting on a comming ban to make their profit for them. A few may just be people who always wanted an AR and never got around to it, but I think most of those bought them in 2008. Personally, I would be more inclined to worry about the ethics if I know the buyer is a shooter like me, and wants to keep and shoot the gun over the years like I do. The guys who think they're going to flip AR's in a few months for 3x the money are not people for whom I have much sympathy.

Sencond is that this is capitalism, plain and simple. Someone wants what you have. If they are willing to pay a price that makes you desire to sell, then both parties get what they want. When the market price is so low that you would just as soon keep a rifle, no one would tell you it is un-ethical to refuse to sell it. Now if you had some way of pushing the panic of your buyer, and did so to get a higher price, I would say that is getting a bit sketchy. But with Obama and Feinstein pushing their panic, the threat the buyer feels is quite real and you know it. That is what is driving the price higher, the very real threat of a ban. Nothing un-ethical in that profit for you.

If you really want a clear conscience, just list whatever you're selling on Gunbroker with a penny start and no reserve. You are then taking the risk that you'll have to let it go for peanuts, but also gambling that you will get more than you even hope for. If you take the honest risk, you may find that any profit goes down a bit easier. In the rare event that I sell a gun, I do this anyway, because I've noticed that those auctions are the ones that tend to generate the highest prices - assuming the gun is desireable enough to attract more than a couple bidders.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:21 pm

Gunbroker. $0.01 starting price. No reserve. Free shipping. List it at 10:00 PM Friday evening.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:39 pm

I look at it this way: I have lost money on 95 percent of the firearms I have sold, so if I get to make a little sugar when there's a stampede on, why on earth not?
I wish I had a case of stripped $90 lowers in the garage right now; could prolly pay for a red stag hunt in Argentina ...

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:00 pm

Anbody who suggests that I sell my property or investments at a loss so as not to "take advantage" of market conditions is not someone from whom I want or need business advice.

Seeking and then skillfully utilizing a position of advantage is how a man feeds his family and gets ahead in this world, and I do not mean to imply that is by capitalising on the dire misfortune of others.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:10 pm

I sold my LMT gas piston M-4 variant the week before the shootings. I got what I paid for it. I would not have wanted to make a dime on the blood of those that lost their lives Friday a week ago. Just the way I would have felt. As for getting what you can? Isn't that what we do on gunbroker? List it for what you want and let the market decide what it's worth

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:12 pm

It's a matter of what you own, and, what somebody wants to give you for it.

Post by **Hobie** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:17 pm

The value of anything is what somebody will pay for it. You should get what the current (at sale time) value is or what you are willing to accept (if offered). You can choose to sell and they can choose to buy, or not.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:20 pm

You'll mostly get the free market opinions here, wonder what the libs think?

A better question is high prices for gas or groceries during a natural disaster. First thing said is gouging shouldn't be allowed.

One thing high prices do FOR the buyer is ensure the availability of product for those that really need it. If a gas station lets all their gas go cheap, it will be gone, with much of it wasted because it was so cheap. Then somebody who really needs it won't get any.

If a gun shop has AR's for $500, they will all be sold immediately to people who don't really need them. Then, if someone in an emergency needs one, there won't be any. That person is going to pay $2,000 and be glad there's one available.

rimrock · Post by **rimrock** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:29 pm

market value = willing seller willing to part with the stuff a willing buyer is willing to pay for. You'll know real fast if you price something too high.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:43 pm

El Chivo wrote:You'll mostly get the free market opinions here, wonder what the libs think?

A better question is high prices for gas or groceries during a natural disaster. First thing said is gouging shouldn't be allowed.

One thing high prices do FOR the buyer is ensure the availability of product for those that really need it. If a gas station lets all their gas go cheap, it will be gone, with much of it wasted because it was so cheap. Then somebody who really needs it won't get any.

If a gun shop has AR's for $500, they will all be sold immediately to people who don't really need them. Then, if someone in an emergency needs one, there won't be any. That person is going to pay $2,000 and be glad there's one available.

I wonder if I'm wrong to look down on the merchant that would gouge for supplies in a disaster, or, immediate life or death situation? Probably not.....there is a difference.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:33 pm

the Bible dealt with this issue thousands of years ago:

Ants are creatures of little strength, yet they store up their food in the summer;

Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise!

It is wise to buy the things that no one wants, and sell the things that everyone wants, at that time.

I never begrudge any prices. It is tyrannical to say that someone who owns something can only sell for "so much". Or that a price is "too high". That's commie talk.

If sailcloth is priced cheap it's wise to buy it now.
If sailcloth is dear it's wise to sell it now.

AND THE ONLY PARTIES WITH LEGITIMATE CONCERNS ARE THE BUYER AND SELLER.

or in today's vernacular buy low and sell high. losers buy high and sell low. that's life as we know it.

Funny to see libertarians getting a moral twinge over something that is no one else's business.

And as a big PS, as someone who was in a cyclical business for nearly 30 years, if you don't have windfall profits you cannot stay in business through times of narrow margins. The begrudgers NEVER want to chip in when the costs are up and the revenues are down. I never hear anyone saying "you know, five bucks is too cheap for that magazine, will you take thirty?"

Know what I mean?

However, I would take a reasonable offer for a never used quanzapole.........

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:41 pm

Personally, I dont see pricing any firearm as gouging. The only way it could be gouging is if they were trying to sell it too you when a mass murderer was chasing you through the store.

State your price and if they want it, they buy it!

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:57 pm

Blaine, you do bring up a troubling point, when the price of ice in Florida goes up 1,000 percent the day after the hurricane. On the other hand, the demand is driven by those who did not plan ahead, and they are paying the price for it. I am conflicted about ticket scalpers as well. If you don't want to pay $100 for a $20 ball game ticket, don't go to the ball game ...

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:13 pm

Sell it like you stole it and take the money and run.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:29 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:Blaine, you do bring up a troubling point, when the price of ice in Florida goes up 1,000 percent the day after the hurricane.

THAT is what induces people from 1,000 miles away to take a day off their regular work, load up some ice, and head to Florida. The need is met, and when enough people do that, the price quickly goes back down. Only those who were 'cutting edge' and started the 'relief effort' are going to get the higher price, but if they didn't have that potential, the ice-convoy would never have started.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:29 pm

IT will be a moot point if all they can do is reinstate the 1994 AWB ---- I bought and used several military style firearms during this time period, and the "ban festures" were things i could live without anyway (bayonet lugs, flash suppressors, etc etc)

If they want to go deeper than that though (they likely do) - who knows ---- I saw a press conference with Diane Feinstein that made my head spin --- she stated that these guns today have features and accessories available for them that make them " much more effective killing machines than the guns of 1994" -- and all she had to do is read a couple of current gun periodicals to see that " (i'm paraphrasing ......... but good grief

)

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:14 pm

I just checked the auction sites for AR's. Most all of the prices are ridiculous. But, there are buyers bidding on all but the most outrageous If you list yours in the penny auctions you will get exactly what the market says it’s worth at this point in time. Guns are commodities just like gold. Would you sell your gold for anything less than the current market value?

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:18 pm

If I could put my Daewoo on the market, without really selling it; I would love to see the feeding frenzy.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:38 pm

Great comments all. I am in the economic mode of Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell on the question of pricing in general, and pricing specifically during shortages or time of duress (natural disaster, man-made disaster, etc.). Price is a indicator to the market on need. As prices go up, many will jump into a market to provide for that need, as they can profit by it (and thus, reinvest the money into other useful pursuits). When prices don't follow demand the situation almost always turns to shortages, and if prices aren't allowed to move, then their is little to no incentive to backfill the need.

So, do I like paying more, for example, for ammo, right now? No, but it is better than the alternative - no one interested in making more ammo to meet the need and more attractive pricing. Same with guns, reloading components, etc.

Get what you can. You made a good "investment", just like a stock, buying low and selling high!

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:57 pm

The last time I sold land I nearly made 5X what I paid for it, I had the land for 5 years
I didnt feel bad bout that deal at all, I gave the asking price, And someone gave me my
asking price

ollogger

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:00 pm

Yeah,
Except I took a beating on taxes.

Mac in Mo · Post by **Mac in Mo** » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:13 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
Mac in Mo wrote:One of my firearms "mentors" has invested wisely over the years in guns, just for the purpose of supplementing his retirement income, and it has and still is paying off.

I also heard that if you make too-high a 'profit' that the ATF will say you were "engaging in the business", so what are the real-world rules on that...???[/quote

I do not know, Doc.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:30 am

I'm probably too emotional about ice/plywood, and stuff in Florida....Serious, people down there should stock up in advance on such things as they realize that they might need in future. Color me capitalist all the way....

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:45 am

AJMD429 wrote:I am more in the 'streamlining' mode of late, as I've put the finishing touches on a lifetime of collecting, and just have a few 'gems' I'd like to go for that are out-of-reach price-wise at the moment. However, part of the 'streamlining' is selling off a few duplicates or guns I just couldn't 'bond' with (work fine and all that, but just looked better in the salesroom than they do in-hand).

I've sold a few over the years, sometimes to stores, sometimes to friends at unrealistically low prices, and sometimes for a few dollars profit. However with the 'fiscal cliff' hitting, money for all of us is getting tight, and my own business is projected to run in the negative for several months until I complete the tedious 'withdraw from Medicare' process, due to Medicare's "23% pay cut" (which is really a 200% pay since office visits for Medicare patients only have a profit-margin of about 10% on a good day).

Now I hear opportunity knocking, in that may of the guns I have been considering as 'on the bubble' sale-wise, are going up in value tremendously.

So - what's the ethical way to deal with it - if I can get $1,000 for a Mini-14 in a few weeks, or $2,000 for an AR-15, is it "gouging", or merely a savvy-investment come true? I know guys who have used their gun-collection as essentially their vacation-fund or part of their retirement-fund, and take it very seriously. For me it has never been more than a hobby, but it's always nice to have a hobby that 'pays for itself' at least in part. Besides, I could use the dough...!

I sell firearms when the demand is highest and maximize profit. The dealer you bought it from did the same thing. No one forces another to buy your firearm and it is worth exactly what some one else will pay. I put a price on it, if it sells great--- if not back in the safe! I sell through a professional gun dealer, because I have little time for those who want to play games. I sold off 25 guns this year for $22,000. I think I did ok. Purchase price for them was less than $5000. but some had been in the safe for 50 years, most unfired and in the original boxes.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:43 am

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:I just checked the auction sites for AR's. Most all of the prices are ridiculous. But, there are buyers bidding on all but the most outrageous If you list yours in the penny auctions you will get exactly what the market says it’s worth at this point in time. Guns are commodities just like gold. Would you sell your gold for anything less than the current market value?

This.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:49 am

Well, I have probably lost more money on guns then I ever made. But I do have several now that are in the black. I could sell some of my AR's for a nice profit, and some people are, and you can't blame them for wanting double for them, as they would be that much to replace at this time.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:28 pm

I live in Hurricane Alley (Texas Gulf Coast) and when one of those darlings hit, the price gouging for building materials, generators and gasoline starts. We have laws against it in Texas, but the crooks brings in stuff and sell them out of trucks beside the road and are gone before they can be reported to the Attorney General's Office.

I am all for capitalism and free market, but I am against taking folks to a screwing just because you can. If a fellow wants to unload a black gun or two, then wait until after the panic and prices have stablized. Just my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it.

I am of the Golden Rule school.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:13 pm

BlaineG wrote:
El Chivo wrote:You'll mostly get the free market opinions here, wonder what the libs think?

A better question is high prices for gas or groceries during a natural disaster. First thing said is gouging shouldn't be allowed.

One thing high prices do FOR the buyer is ensure the availability of product for those that really need it. If a gas station lets all their gas go cheap, it will be gone, with much of it wasted because it was so cheap. Then somebody who really needs it won't get any.

If a gun shop has AR's for $500, they will all be sold immediately to people who don't really need them. Then, if someone in an emergency needs one, there won't be any. That person is going to pay $2,000 and be glad there's one available.
I wonder if I'm wrong to look down on the merchant that would gouge for supplies in a disaster, or, immediate life or death situation? Probably not.....there is a difference.

Well, the point is it was the high price that ensured the supply, and the person with the stronger need will be grateful that there is one to buy.

I don't think it's the merchant's obligation to make sure the person has money left over. Evil or not, he did his job for the customer.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:21 pm

Charles wrote:I live in Hurricane Alley (Texas Gulf Coast) and when one of those darlings hit, the price gouging for building materials, generators and gasoline starts. We have laws against it in Texas, but the crooks brings in stuff and sell them out of trucks beside the road and are gone before they can be reported to the Attorney General's Office.

I am all for capitalism and free market, but I am against taking folks to a screwing just because you can. If a fellow wants to unload a black gun or two, then wait until after the panic and prices have stablized. Just my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it.

I am of the Golden Rule school.

You're for the free market, but those who engage in it are crooks.

If people didn't want the stuff brought in, they wouldn't buy from the crooks. The crooks would go broke (they have expenses too) if no one wanted their stuff.

Instead, what? Complain because the government can't get the same stuff for a month after the disaster? Do you want to wait a month for bottled water or do you want to buy some today?

And Texas is sitting on oceans of oil because the price isn't high enough yet. Why aren't you pumping your oil and distributing it at cost to people who need it?

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:27 pm

El Chivo wrote:
Charles wrote:I live in Hurricane Alley (Texas Gulf Coast) and when one of those darlings hit, the price gouging for building materials, generators and gasoline starts. We have laws against it in Texas, but the crooks brings in stuff and sell them out of trucks beside the road and are gone before they can be reported to the Attorney General's Office.

I am all for capitalism and free market, but I am against taking folks to a screwing just because you can. If a fellow wants to unload a black gun or two, then wait until after the panic and prices have stablized. Just my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it.

I am of the Golden Rule school.
You're for the free market, but those who engage in it are crooks.

If people didn't want the stuff brought in, they wouldn't buy from the crooks. The crooks would go broke (they have expenses too) if no one wanted their stuff.

Instead, what? Complain because the government can't get the same stuff for a month after the disaster? Do you want to wait a month for bottled water or do you want to buy some today?

And Texas is sitting on oceans of oil because the price isn't high enough yet. Why aren't you pumping your oil and distributing it at cost to people who need it?

Ouch....100% on target, though......I think I would be the merchant that would lay in a huge inventory of that stuff, price it accordingly, and when disaster hits, I'd make a good profit without feeling guilty about it...heck, I'd prolly end up giving some of it away to hard luck stories..

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:32 pm

Back in Chicago there was a guy who, on rainy days, would be waiting at the subway exit with umbrellas for sale. He'd hand it to you partially open as you paid and you didn't even get wet.

He got wet, but you didn't. If you wanted a cheaper/better umbrella you could run a few blocks in the rain and buy one at Marshall Field's, and wait in a big line. But he was Johnny on the Spot. I ended up with quite a few of his umbrellas.

wecsoger · Post by **wecsoger** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:13 pm

That's very interesting guys. I originally posted with "there is no such thing as price gouging, only the free market" and figured I would get ripped by everyone.

If there's a disaster and I see a gas station marking it up to ten bucks/gal, I just nod and move on. His product, his choice, your decision to buy or not.

Guess there's more of us here than I thought that's read Atlas Shrugged.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:36 pm

wecsoger wrote:That's very interesting guys. I originally posted with "there is no such thing as price gouging, only the free market" and figured I would get ripped by everyone.

If there's a disaster and I see a gas station marking it up to ten bucks/gal, I just nod and move on. His product, his choice, your decision to buy or not.

Guess there's more of us here than I thought that's read Atlas Shrugged.

"Gouging" is a process that exists only in very limited circumstances and is defined by pre-event unscrupulous behavior...

"Ticket Scalpers" engage in "gouging". They bought the product not as an "investment" but solely to capitalize on a numerical scarcity.

Selling what you have for what the market will bear, when there is, in reality, NO "numerical scarcity" is NOT "gouging, but good market practices...

Yes, it's a fine line, but the line is there.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:01 pm

I am not suprised most of you don't see a connection between morality and capitalism. If more folks did see a connection, they goverment would not see fit to muck around in the free enterprise system. If folks don't self regulate, the goverment most surely will do it for you.

I just wonder if any of you see any connection between morality and life in general? Do you hold the position that if it is legal then just do it?

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:08 pm

Sell it for what it will go for - not like it is a necessity of life like milk or eggs for the kids. If someone buys at that price, fine, not like you are holding anything on them. They may go up from there.

wecsoger · Post by **wecsoger** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:30 pm

Yes, it's a fine line, but the line is there.

Interesting conversation! Sorry, but I'm not seeing it.

I invest my money and time in a product and if/when I decide to sell it, I can ask whatever price I choose. I really can't see it any other way.

In the case of the scalpers, yes, they did invest their capitol in the tickets to resell. There is no guarantee they will make that money back. The day of the game, the news gets out that all of the players are pedophiles and no one wants to watch the game. Scalper is standing there and the local gendarmes decide to chase them all away. The scalpers are taking a chance to be successful, but there's always a chance of failure.

So I'm sitting in front of my house covering up the windows after the tornado, someone walks by, sees the jeep with the two gas cans on the back. Says how much a can. I tell them two fifty bucks. Local cop and city councilman walking by says no, no, you have to sell it at your price five gallons for three forty a gallon.

At that point the government has stepped in; seized control of my property and decides what I can and can not do with it.

'Anti-gouging' laws exist because there are some folks who can't see someone be successful.

On the other hand, I don't see any laws to protect businesses or entrepreneurs from failure. (actually there is, it's call the GM bailout but that's another story)

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:42 pm

Charles wrote:I am not suprised most of you don't see a connection between morality and capitalism. If more folks did see a connection, they goverment would not see fit to muck around in the free enterprise system. If folks don't self regulate, the goverment most surely will do it for you.

I just wonder if any of you see any connection between morality and life in general? Do you hold the position that if it is legal then just do it?

Define "morality".... without using Dogma.

There is NOTHING unETHICAL about a willing, if grudgingly, transaction between individuals.

Now, if your MORALITY - which is entirely separate from Ethics - declares that one must sell a good at an inflated price before burning one's sister in law on a funeral pyre along with her husband's body, well, that's different.

Morality and ethics are often mutually exclusive...

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:30 pm

Sorry Old Savage, but I decline to try and define morality. That would not be a discussion but a tit for tat proposition and I have no interest in that. Justice Potter Steward said he might not be able to define hard core pornography, but he knew it when he saw it. I am that way with immoral acts...I know them when I see them.

2571 · Post by **2571** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:34 pm

I think 'gouging' and 'profiteering' both have an element of necessity.

You may have to have gasoline but you don't need an AR.

Don'nt buy it if you think the seller is realizing too great a profit. You don't NEED it.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:22 pm

I once saw a football game where the offense was starting on their own 3 yard line. They ran a play from scrimmage and the running back found a hole, jinked a couple of guys, and ran 97 yards for a touchdown.

Now, running backs average about 4 yards per carry. Shouldn't he have stopped at the 7 yard line? Shouldn't he give those yards back? He tricked the defense unfairly.

If he was unwilling to do it, shouldn't the refs step in and correct the unfairness?

And if that running back is caught behind the line of scrimmage, should the defense let him go until he gets his 4? Or should they pummel him?

Lots of good Christian boys play football, and nobody gives yards back. Lots of defensive coaches are good Christians, and nobody lets a runner get 4 yards if they can help it.

If a fellow wants to unload a black gun or two, then wait until after the panic and prices have stablized.

Why wait? Just because everyone else is selling their AR's for $2000, that doesn't mean you can't sell yours for $500. By waiting you create a shortage - you deny the rifle to someone who really needs it (but of course if you sell it for $500 you'll never know if he really needed it or not).

You mentioned hurricanes. Do you want to call a board-up service, ask for plywood, and then hear him say he can't sell you plywood until prices have stabilized? No, sorry, can't come out, prices are too high and I don't want to gouge you.

You would be saying "Gouge me, gouge me, I need my windows replaced tonight." That's why government is so slow and so bad. They have no incentive to be otherwise. When are they going to make it out to you with plywood? Sometime before the next election?

By the way I don't think the list of absolute necessities extends to gasoline. If you don't want to pay $5 or $10 per gallon you can walk away - literally. Same with a fancy gun.

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"Ticket Scalpers" engage in "gouging". They bought the product not as an "investment" but solely to capitalize on a numerical scarcity.

Wrong; they absolutely bought those tickets as an investment. And rarely do they control the whole market, or collude with other ticket scalpers. If one scalper was able to buy ALL the tickets and then price them out of sight, you might have something, because they create the scarcity. Even if they do, you don't have to see the show.

They often lose their shirts because their product is only valuable for a short time. And because there are other scalpers, it's only moderately valuable days or hours before the event, gets more valuable as time runs out, and then it's WORTHLESS once the event starts. Once Barbra Streisand starts singing, all the tickets this guy still has, that he paid for, are worthless. If he gets $1000 for a pair of tickets at the last 5 minutes, more power to him. He probably only sold a few at that price.

Robbery is gouging because you are forced at gunpoint to give them what you have and get nothing in return. You can't walk away. Anyone who entices you to give up your money with a product or service is acting fairly. Notice that government taxation is similar to robbery - you can't walk away and if you try they take you away at gunpoint. And it's up to them if they give you something for your money or not, and even if they do, they decide what it's going to be and when they'll get around to doing it.

You might have a case for gouging if a person is in trouble - a man who falls in a well doesn't ask about the price of rope. This is similar to what the medical profession does. They gouge in certain situations - because you can't refuse their services and you don't have time or leverage to negotiate a price; in fact they won't even tell you the price up front. Once you are under their control they charge exorbitant prices, like $25.00 for a .02 cent aspirin. Like the man with the rope, they are in a position to gouge, and they do it.