Backup Generator ? (Project Completed :-)

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:29 am

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Larkbill · Post by **Larkbill** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:16 am

My Dad has a Generac powered by natural gas. That sounds like more than you are wanting to do, his will power the entire house. Funny thing, when they lived outside of town (Rolla, Mo.) their electric rarely went out. After they retired and moved into town they found out that electric in town has all kinds of problems. After Mom's health went downhill and they quit going to Florida in the winter he decided the generator was not a luxury and had it installed.

None of the cheap generators sold at Harbor Freight, Northern Tool and elsewhere have engines that will hold up to much use. My brother found this out with trash pumps he was using to supply water to his concrete saws. He finally gave up and bought Hondas. Even some of their stuff will say Made in China sometimes, but the quality of the materials is superior to the normal Chinese stuff. The other choice if you want Made in USA would be to check with Surplus Center and look for one with a B&S Vanguard engine. But be advised my Lincoln portable welder came with a Vanguard 9 hp. that had Made in Japan all over it. Apparently B&S has some kind of deal with Honda for premium engines.

It's the same old thing, you get what you pay for.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:41 am

I would suggest a 4KW or better, since smaller than than will not have a 220V outlet, just a couple of 110V.

I've had a Coleman that's given me excellent service over the past 10 years - but I use stabilizer in the gas tank and start it up every month to let it run for 10mins, so that the brushes won't tend to "stick" & fail to pick up.
I also keep a time/hours log, so I can change the oil - since "emergencies" haven't come all the time, and I tend to forget.

My Coleman runs on pump gas, so I'm at the mercy of the power grid at gas station for resupply, after the 30-or-so gals I keep ready (besides the full genny tank) runs out.

My first choice, if I could have afforded it (since I have Natural Gas service to my home for heating/cooking/etc), would have been a Generac for direct hookup to the gas line.

FWIW, I didn't use any separate/dedicated circuits - I used my house wiring, cutting in a box that the genny feeds, with the genny's output going into my main box, with a street/genny mandatory choice switch in between, that feeds the 220V genny power into my main box the same as the street power.

It makes it K.I.S.S. for me ( I need simple) - I just start the genny & throw the switch to change the feed from street to genny.

I house my genny in a backyard (ventilated/lockable) shed, and bought (Home Cheapo) cable that was designed for direct U/G burial w/o a conduit, running it from the shed/genny into my basement.

.

rbertalotto · Post by **rbertalotto** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:45 am

Honda, Honda, Honda!

The little inverter based generators are super quiet, sip fuel, and won't damage delicate electronic devices.

You listed your gas hot water heater. Are you sure it needs electricity?

The other items you listed sounds like a 1000w generator should work.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:48 am

Roy, looking at the pic, it appears his hot water heater isn't next to a chimney, and so has been fitted with an electric blower to move exhaust gasses to a vent riser ILO a direct chimney/flue connection, like a woodstove.

.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:51 am

Just like Guns You can go cheap or the sky's the limit. My system is much more basic than Yours. I have a Coleman 5000W with a Subaru/Robin engine.It paid for it's self when Sandy went thru here and a tree knocked out power. the neighbours basements all flooded.whatever one You get Your never going to regret it. Good Luck.

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:01 am

And since you have gas (natural or propane) you might want to consider running the generator on it rather than gasoline.

rafter-7 · Post by **rafter-7** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:03 am

Winco generators.. what ever engine.. up here are the standard and are sold by our electric cooperative at cost to thier customers only so they must be good. check there first

I have a Miller Bobcat welder generator 11000 watt. great if you would like a stick/mig welder also they are about 3000.00

generators have a surge and work load ratings so make sure IF all of your items are on at once that your generators work load can handle that. All appliances on the tag say how many watts they pull

I like what you did in the kitchen with the gen outlet having a black outlet cover i would paint or black tape the other gen covers for easy ID

I have about 6 old time oil lamps that we use for light in the rest of the house. they are decorations in the (not needed) season

Change the sheets on the spare beds because unprepared neighbors and friends will be your house guests

till the power is back on. after 3 days

start and run your generator at least twice a year so you know your carb is not gumming up yamaha has the best gas stabilizer/carb cleaner. get it at your yamaha ATV dealer

take your gen on camping and hunting trips you never know when you need power DONT EVER RUN VARIBLE SPEED ITEMS ON GEN POWER like mixers items used need to be on or off items

Ill think some more on this.

^
7

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:35 am

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FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 am

Nice install.

I've been looking at Generacs in the 6500W range, myself.

Trying to decide how clean the power needs to be, and not get carried away.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:01 am

Backup power at the N.M. place is a Generac 5500, power for the mining operation is also a Generac 5500.
These are said to be portable generators, but only if you have good stong help.

rafter-7 · Post by **rafter-7** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:24 am

http://www.millerwelds.com/products/eng ... del=M00185

Heres the model i have... I know most of you dont need a welder but i have a need for duel purpose works great

^
7

Hagler · Post by **Hagler** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:46 pm

casastahle,

My experience with hurricane Isaac was my only experience with a small generator. My friend, Raymond, has a 20-plus-year background in electrical & electronic things (U.S. Navy; radio & TV broadcasting; on-going college education; satellite navigation; biomedical electronics). He loaned me his Coleman generator, which was rated at about 6,530 watts, with one 240 volt, 20 amp outlet & two 120 volt, 20 amp outlets. I disconnected my 200 amp main breaker, so that my house was no longer connected to street power, and I connected the generator to my electric dryer outlet. I turned off my electric water heater's breaker, but left on everthing else. I was able to run my water well pump, my central air conditioning, my refrigerator, and one room of lights & computer, plus the TV.

Ray had built his own 240 volt cable, by cobbling together two extension cords, with the correct plugs, on each end. The end that I plugged into my dryer outlet had the sheathing cut back by about 6". Each of the 3 conductors was wrapped with a different color of electrical tape, and the plug was packed with dielectric grease. Ray also loaned me his inductive amp meter, to monitor the current draw. With the equipment that I was running, I drew no more than 18.7 amps. One tank (5 gallons) of gasoline lasted 8-to-10 hours. I had to add oil, to the generator, once every other tank filling.

Now, a word about running certain pices of equipment:

I did not try to cook on my electric stove. I did not run my electric water heater. My DVD players, and my wife's emergency call box would not function properly, while on generator power. Raymond says that this is because they use a switching power supply. The generator could not supply the kind of current that these devices need. Monitor your current draw, with an inductive amp meter. It will help you to plan which devices you can use, at whatever time you need them.

Good luck!

Shawn

p.s.

If you cannot run your central air conditioning, then try 1, or 2, small windaow units. Even if you cannot get propper cooling with them, at least you will dehumidify the house. That is what Raymond did with his 2,400 square foot house. Running two 5,000 BTU A/C really makes a difference.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:07 pm

Our house is totally electric... Worst of all our new septic system relies on a pump instead of the original gravity flow system. The county would not allow a vertical leach field that could have been gravity fed so we wound up with a linear leach field that relies on the fluid being pumped up to it. A generator was imperative as I saw it because every winter when trees get soaked and fall our power has been known to be off line for three or four days. We bought an electric start liquid cooled 6.5 KW Honda... Known to be one of the quietest running Gens around... No complaints in the last four years . However it will not supply all of the power I need all at once. I turn off the water heater to start with... The water will stay warm a couple of days if the power stays off that long. But with careful management if the power is off more than a couple of days I can keep the food frozen in the fridge...all of the lights on all of the time if need be... the septic pump working... heat the hot water if need be ...the comp runs fine...We don’t run it when we turn in for the night...That electric start is sweet in the morning when I go out to start her up... especially when it’s pouring rain and a hot cup of Joe is badly needed.. Gas consumption has been pretty decent..

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:09 pm

I've been using a Honda 3500 Watt job since the great Ice Storm of '98
with pretty good success.

I just plug it into a dryer outlet I installed in a detached garage via the
subpanel there. (This outlet is also useful for powering 220V tools like
compressors!)

So, I first disconnect the main breaker to the house. I bought some heavy,
waterproof 600V cable, and wired up the appropriate plugs at each end.

Things that I run:
1. Septic pump.
2. Water Pump.
3. Boiler (for hot water).
4. Pellet Stove.
5. 2 refrigerators.
6. A couple of lights.
7. And the little things I always forget about.....

Now remember, when an AC motor starts, it can use several times the
rated wattage as it starts up. So, don't allow everyting to start at once!
Damage to something will result!! I just turn off individual breakers,
and then start the applicances one at a time; listenting to see if the
generator is doing all right. Once everything has cycled once, the 3500
seems to keep up just fine. Still, some day when I feel rich, I'll upgrade
to a 6500. The limit to use is, of course, the 30 AMP breaker I'm feeding from
the garage on the subpanel.

The range and the coffeemaker I just turn off for the duration. Coffee is
brewed out on the gas grill on an old camp percolator. Not as romantic
as it sounds

during a howling Nor'easter, but you do what ya
gotta do....

I'll tell ya - if you want to become frugal with elctricity, practice for 2 weeks
in the middle of winter in Maine with a 3500 watt generator as your only
source of electricity! You'll learn to turn things off when you're done....

Hope this helps.

-Stretch

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:06 pm

I poured a pad and dropped a 20kW Onan on it. Wired up using a GE transfer switch. Overkill for what you need but I really didn't want to have to worry about gasoline or diesel going bad. The bigger ones run on propane or natural gas which solves that problem. It's nice now that its done but it was hell installing a 1200lb unit myself. Pulleys, ramps, steel cable, and those wonderful tow hooks on the front of my Expedition saved me.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:56 pm

I like the idea of Honda Honda Honda. You can series them together as needed. Nice work.

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:55 pm

Yep, Honda!

I am offgrid and use a Honda EU2000i and an EU3000i for all my power needs. Just sold my last one (2000)with 19,000 trouble free hours on it. This 3000 version has 15,000 hours with no problems either.

I simply cannot say enough good about them. The EU2000i is the reason I am online and typing right now!

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:56 am

Living on the Gulf Coast and dealing with the storms I now have three generators. The main one is a 7kw from Sears. I use it for the things mentioned but I don't have a transfer switch. What I do is this. The output cord lease the gewnerator and fed into a two pole 30amp breaker. When I lose power I just turn the main breaker in the distribution panel off and all the others as well. I then install the two pole 30 amp breaker into the panel in spare spaces. Then I start the gen and it backfeeds into the panel through the two pole 30 amp breaker and then I only turn on the circiuts I need.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:47 am

Generac got a best buy rating from Consumer Reports this past summer. Hondas are expensive, but reliable and very quiet. They're the cadillacs of the smaller generators. We're looking at one, too. We live far enough up in the woods that somebody losing a tree in the wind would put several dozen families out of juice.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:05 pm

Bill,
It WILL happen.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:49 pm

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jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:56 pm

FWiedner wrote:...I've been looking at Generacs in the 6500W range, myself. ...

That is what I bought last year, after losing power for a week.
I also bought and installed a Gen-Trans transfer switch to hook the generator into my house.

I needed to power my oil furnace (it also heats my water), a 3/4 Hp well pump, and refrigerator. The remaining circuits are used for lighting and cooking ( 1000W hot plate, toaster oven, or microwave, pick one).

The generator is in a shed 50' from the house. The exhaust is piped out of the shed. It takes about 15 minutes to fuel the generator and connect the cable to the transfer switch.

I keep 20 gallons of gas on hand, but am going to add another 10 gallons shortly. 30 gallons of fuel should last for about 50 hours of continuous running.

The Generac has worked well in testing and during a recent outage of a few hours.

Jack

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:36 pm

Don't forget the gas stabilizer, well worth the money, and you have to maintain the system.

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:30 am

Mescalero wrote:Don't forget the gas stabilizer, well worth the money, and you have to maintain the system.

A good thing to remember.

I have a kit with spare spark plug, air filter, a spark plug wrench, funnel for oil change, and oil enough for two changes.
I treat the fuel with stabilizer and rotate it through the cars every 3 to 6 months. I also have a siphon hose in case I need to scavenge for fuel. One of my cars has no baffles in the fuel filler and I'm careful to keep it at least half full.

Jack

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:23 am

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2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:47 pm

Mescalero wrote:Don't forget the gas stabilizer, well worth the money, and you have to maintain the system.

Thats why people should ultimately go with propane because few actually take the time to take care of their generators. They are standby, so they....standby...until they are needed and most times its too late.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:22 pm

All of the ones I am familiar with (propane) have a significantly higher fuel consumption rate.
From a logic standpoint this does not make sense, unless the owners are wrong about thier fuel consumption rate.

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:55 pm

Yes, you are correct and since I am very poor at explaining things, I'll let this article explain it for me!

http://members.rennlist.org/warren/propane.html

But this doesn't really concern someone using it as backup power as they are just waiting for the regular juice to come back on. But it is still more cost efficient if you figure gasoline at $3.50 per gallon compared to the $1.58 I just paid for 400 gallons of propane.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:30 pm

Yeah, I'm paying $2.49 a gallon for propane currently. Even though it has less energy per gallon than gas, it also costs less than gasoline for me. It will also keep for many years in my buried 250 gal tank and I don't have to rotate it or add stabilizer.

If you're going to run a gasoline standby, you should probably use E0 in it along with a bit of stabilizer. I can get E0 here for about 10% more than E10. The most likely place to find E0 is a marina around here. Some places that supply off-road / farm diesel may sell E0 as well.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:39 pm

OK,
So they were not imagining the consumption rate.

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:43 pm

One thing to remember about using a generator feeding into your house panelboard without going through a double throw (or similar) switch; it is most probably a local electrical code violation and in violation of the NEC (National Electrical Code). I am not saying that it won't work but the reason for a double throw switch is to ensure that energy cannot be backfed onto the electric utility lines potentially causing injury or death to electrical workers (linemen).

No matter how careful you are to turn off the main breaker before starting your generator, there is always the chance that you may make a mistake or someone else might close the open breaker; the double throw ensures that you are completely disconnected from the utility before the generator can power your house.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:46 pm

That really is the only responsible way to do this.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:36 pm

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Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:43 pm

Nice generator bro.

Your ready for anything with that.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:59 pm

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Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:02 pm

I am betting you can not lift it by yourself.
I can not lift my Generac 5500 by myself.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:57 pm

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Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:00 pm

Is that 220 volt also?
Wish i`d bought one that had both 220 and 115 volt.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:06 pm

If it was not so awkward it would not be so bad.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:30 pm

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Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:18 am

What is it's actual fuel consumption under load? Don't forget to multiply consumption by hours per day days per week and estimated worst case scenario need ( here it is 3 weeks for me due to snow/ice event) and figure out your fuel storage needs. Then buy the number of cans, fuel stabilizer, fuel, make a rotation schedule for the fuel and keep them full.

Find OLD USED GAS CANS. The new ones are the most useless pita I've found in actual use. Blech!

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:04 am

Tycer wrote:....
Find OLD USED GAS CANS. The new ones are the most useless pita I've found in actual use. Blech!

Eagle still makes good quality metal gas cans. They aren't cheap at $42/ea for a 5 gal. can.
I got mine from Lowes.

Jack