Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
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- earlmck
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Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
OK, here's the background. A few weeks ago fellow levergunner Mainehunter came up with a very nice H&G mold in a weird bullet. Somebody recognized as a Pope design from early 1900's -- oversized base and undersized everything else.
I thought it looked familiar, dug around in my mold stash, and found one in Lyman persuasion marked 311403. Here's a pic: The base of this thing measures .316 but the bands run from .301 to .303. I had bought it 40+ years ago thinking it would be the bullet for a 7.7 jap rifle I'd slugged at .315. No, shot like -- uh -- like -- uh -- not well.
Mainehunter discovers he also has the Lyman model of this bullet, and finds some info on the web about successful use of this thing. He proceeded to go off moose hunting and I proceeded to cast up some of these things to give a try. The info about the bullet is that you seat it waaaay out, so the undersized part goes way up the barrel while the base just wedges in the throat. I used Lee tumble-lube so I could try 'em the way Pope designed 'em. Here they are, loaded in 303 Savage, .308, and 30/30. I was trying for the 1300 to 1400 fps velocity level, and used 9.4 grains of Green Dot (9.4 grains sounds like I had this very scientifically worked out doesn't it? No, I was aiming at the 9 grain level and that even mark on the powder measure gave the 9.4 for "close enough for government work")
Headed out to the trusty gravel pit last Sunday. I forgot the chronograph. Dang! But here's what resulted: As you might guess, it is a booger to chamber these things. Turns out it isn't the long nose part engaging the rifling that requires the force: it is that dang .316 base seated in the neck , causing the neck to be so large you can't hardly get it to chamber. All the 30/30's made it in: first shot a flyer just off the paper, the next 7 went into a nice 1.5". Nice if this was 100 yards, anyway. But I was just shooting at 50 yards for these.
The 308 got off 3 before I got one wedged almost in and couldn't finish chambering it. On extraction the bullet stayed in the barrel, and of course I hadn't remembered to bring along a cleaning rod to knock it out... so 3 in 3" at 50 yards.
And the same thing happened with the 303 Savage. 3 in 3.25" at the 50 yards.
So as a "check" of how the rifle likes the load (this 9.4 grains of Green Dot) Here is what happened with the 9.4 Green Dot and the 31141 Gas check bullet I normally shoot at about 1700 fps with IMR 4759: this 6 in 2.5" at 50 yards says to me that this isn't a particularly accurate load (that's about what I expect at 100 yards with this bullet in my regular load).
But hey, the bullet didn't tumble and I can see you might work with it and get a real target load. If I do anything more with it I am going to first size that oversized base down to .313 and see if that doesn't allow it to chamber OK. But since I am not a big fan of loading single shots into a repeating rifle, I'm not too sure I'll play with this thing any more. But there it was, and after Mainehunter found the info on it I just had to give it a try...
Sorry for the lack of chronograph data. I wasn't going to make the range report until I tried again and took the chrono along. But got to thinking -- "so little time, so many better things to play with". So here is the .311403 preliminary report that probably will never become more of a final report.
I thought it looked familiar, dug around in my mold stash, and found one in Lyman persuasion marked 311403. Here's a pic: The base of this thing measures .316 but the bands run from .301 to .303. I had bought it 40+ years ago thinking it would be the bullet for a 7.7 jap rifle I'd slugged at .315. No, shot like -- uh -- like -- uh -- not well.
Mainehunter discovers he also has the Lyman model of this bullet, and finds some info on the web about successful use of this thing. He proceeded to go off moose hunting and I proceeded to cast up some of these things to give a try. The info about the bullet is that you seat it waaaay out, so the undersized part goes way up the barrel while the base just wedges in the throat. I used Lee tumble-lube so I could try 'em the way Pope designed 'em. Here they are, loaded in 303 Savage, .308, and 30/30. I was trying for the 1300 to 1400 fps velocity level, and used 9.4 grains of Green Dot (9.4 grains sounds like I had this very scientifically worked out doesn't it? No, I was aiming at the 9 grain level and that even mark on the powder measure gave the 9.4 for "close enough for government work")
Headed out to the trusty gravel pit last Sunday. I forgot the chronograph. Dang! But here's what resulted: As you might guess, it is a booger to chamber these things. Turns out it isn't the long nose part engaging the rifling that requires the force: it is that dang .316 base seated in the neck , causing the neck to be so large you can't hardly get it to chamber. All the 30/30's made it in: first shot a flyer just off the paper, the next 7 went into a nice 1.5". Nice if this was 100 yards, anyway. But I was just shooting at 50 yards for these.
The 308 got off 3 before I got one wedged almost in and couldn't finish chambering it. On extraction the bullet stayed in the barrel, and of course I hadn't remembered to bring along a cleaning rod to knock it out... so 3 in 3" at 50 yards.
And the same thing happened with the 303 Savage. 3 in 3.25" at the 50 yards.
So as a "check" of how the rifle likes the load (this 9.4 grains of Green Dot) Here is what happened with the 9.4 Green Dot and the 31141 Gas check bullet I normally shoot at about 1700 fps with IMR 4759: this 6 in 2.5" at 50 yards says to me that this isn't a particularly accurate load (that's about what I expect at 100 yards with this bullet in my regular load).
But hey, the bullet didn't tumble and I can see you might work with it and get a real target load. If I do anything more with it I am going to first size that oversized base down to .313 and see if that doesn't allow it to chamber OK. But since I am not a big fan of loading single shots into a repeating rifle, I'm not too sure I'll play with this thing any more. But there it was, and after Mainehunter found the info on it I just had to give it a try...
Sorry for the lack of chronograph data. I wasn't going to make the range report until I tried again and took the chrono along. But got to thinking -- "so little time, so many better things to play with". So here is the .311403 preliminary report that probably will never become more of a final report.
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The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies. Patrick Henry
is he who heals the most gullies. Patrick Henry
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- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
I also have that mold. But mine is for the .32 cal. I bought it for my .32-40 custom built Ruger #1.
I finally gave up deciding it was just too long for my 1-14
Rifling to stabilize. Since I breech seat for that rifle I had thought it would be great but it just don`t seem to want to
cooperate.
That rifle shoots five into 1/2 " @ 100 when I don`t drink too much coffee that morning.
I have thought of running that bullet through a sizer die and paper patching it back up to.323 and trying it in my Win. 94
.32-40 along with a fairly stout load of 5744. ???
I finally gave up deciding it was just too long for my 1-14
Rifling to stabilize. Since I breech seat for that rifle I had thought it would be great but it just don`t seem to want to
cooperate.
That rifle shoots five into 1/2 " @ 100 when I don`t drink too much coffee that morning.
I have thought of running that bullet through a sizer die and paper patching it back up to.323 and trying it in my Win. 94
.32-40 along with a fairly stout load of 5744. ???
-
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Re: Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
Boy earlmck you went to town on that mold! What alloy mix you were using? Too bad it didn’t work out better but you may be right about sizing the base down so they will chamber better. The picture of the three rounds next to each other, you can see the bullet is bulging the 303 case but not so much on the others. I know I mentioned it before but really need to cast a few of the H&G mold just to see what sizes are those bands. Stay tuned.
Mainehunter
Mainehunter
- earlmck
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Re: Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
These were cast from wheelweights, air cooled. Not as soft as the 20:1 or 30:1 stuff that Pope probably used, but not real hard, either.Mainehunter wrote:What alloy mix you were using? Too bad it didn’t work out better
And I think the way those were starting to look in the 30/30, you could play around with some loads and get a real shooter with this thing, loaded carefully one at a time. But my style shooting leans more to the "let's see if we can keep the can bouncing along" than "let's see if we can make one ragged hole in the paper". So I'm figuring this one won't work out for the kind of shooting I like to do, rather than that it won't work for the target work for which it was designed.
I should admit that I am pleasantly surprised at how well it did shoot. After I'd bought the mold 40 years ago (on the strength of that advertised .316" dimension), cast a few, found that only the base was .316, and discovered they just plain keyholed in that 7.7 jap rifle -- well I thought it was a totally stupid design that had no redeeming qualities. Never tried it again until this trial here. So I'm now saying Mr. Pope knew more about bullet design than I ever will. I'd have bet money you couldn't keep this weirdly-dimensioned bullet on a 8x10 piece of target paper at 100 yards. And I'd have been badly wrong.
The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies. Patrick Henry
is he who heals the most gullies. Patrick Henry
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- Senior Levergunner
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Re: Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
I did more researching last night and found out that guys were using fired cases not sized at all just de-primed, charged and inserted the bullet snuggly by hand. I can see that this method of loading can be somewhat of a pain and really meant for target work at low pressure. What I’m curious now is on the H&G mold being it a copy or close to the Lyman 311403 or Ideal 308403, why would they make one cavity a gas check, hollow point version? Maybe more tailored for a hunting round?
Mainehunter
Mainehunter
- J Miller
- Member Emeritus
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Re: Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
earlmck,
I'm curious how that bullet would shoot from my No4 Mk1. It's got the two groove barrel and the grove run .317" if I remember what I slugged it at. Been a while.
Joe
I'm curious how that bullet would shoot from my No4 Mk1. It's got the two groove barrel and the grove run .317" if I remember what I slugged it at. Been a while.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
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Re: Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
Hey earlmck, I finally dug out my casting stuff and casted a few of H&G mold. Boy it’s been years that I’ve done this almost starting over in a way. Sorry about the first pic, it's a little blury. Here it is:
The specs:
The left bullet: Hollow point, gas check, 180 grn., 1.000 OAL. Starting from the nose to the rear the bands are:
1. .300
2. .300
3. .301
4. .303
5. .305
6. .311
The right bullet: Flat nose, 180 grn, .710 OAL.
1. .300
2. .300
3. .301
4. .304
5. .306
5. .314!
The first batch I tried using WW but the lube groves looked too filled or not deep enough. The lube groves as it is are pretty shallow. I did have some fire lapping bullets I think they are around 12 bhn and it was an improvement. Reading the description about the mold from the H&G website mentions 20:1 mix is recommended. After casting just a couple of bullets it brought back memories and how much fun it is. I pretty much made up my mind I need to get back into casting…… very soon.
Mainehunter
The specs:
The left bullet: Hollow point, gas check, 180 grn., 1.000 OAL. Starting from the nose to the rear the bands are:
1. .300
2. .300
3. .301
4. .303
5. .305
6. .311
The right bullet: Flat nose, 180 grn, .710 OAL.
1. .300
2. .300
3. .301
4. .304
5. .306
5. .314!
The first batch I tried using WW but the lube groves looked too filled or not deep enough. The lube groves as it is are pretty shallow. I did have some fire lapping bullets I think they are around 12 bhn and it was an improvement. Reading the description about the mold from the H&G website mentions 20:1 mix is recommended. After casting just a couple of bullets it brought back memories and how much fun it is. I pretty much made up my mind I need to get back into casting…… very soon.
Mainehunter
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Re: Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
I have a Savage 24V 30-30/20ga. Reckon how that bullet might do in a single shot?
JerryB II Corinthians 3:17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
JOSHUA 24:15
JOSHUA 24:15
- earlmck
- Advanced Levergunner
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- Location: pert-neer middle of Oregon
Re: Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
That is an even larger oversize than my 7.7 Arisaka rifle. My reloading notes from that one trial with the Arisaka show that at 50 yards I got a 5/5" group with 17 grains of H4227 (which would have been close in velocity to the 9.4/Green Dot load); 5/6" with 19 grains H4227; and didn't even hit the box with 29 grains of 4198 (which would have been over 2000 fps.) I don't show my load length for those, but I'll bet I used a more conventional length. And I never tried them again until this time. My memory was telling me those bullets tumbled, but the reloading notes refute that, at least for the H4227 loads, though the groups were a bit ugly.J Miller wrote: I'm curious how that bullet would shoot from my No4 Mk1. It's got the two groove barrel and the grove run .317" if I remember what I slugged it at. Been a while.
If you'd like to give 'em a try, Joe, PM me your address and I'll send you a batch from what I have left over.
Well the way I loaded them, Jerry, I needed an awful lot of camming power to seat the cartridge. But if I'd sized the base down to maybe .314 I think they'd have seated much easier. But it still takes some power to poke that .302 - .303 bullet up into the rifling, if you seat it the way Pope intended. Something to think of with this particular bullet. If you would like to try, PM me an address I could send you what I don't send Joe.JerryB wrote:I have a Savage 24V 30-30/20ga. Reckon how that bullet might do in a single shot?
That's pretty close to mine: 175 grains, 0.97" length, diametersMainehunter wrote:The specs:
The left bullet: Hollow point, gas check, 180 grn., 1.000 OAL. Starting from the nose to the rear the bands are:
1. .300
2. .300
3. .301
4. .303
5. .305
6. .311
1. .301
2. .302
3. .302
4. .302
5. .303
6. .304
7. .316
And you're right -- turning out those nice bullets is a satisfying accomplishment. And your lube grooves are plenty deep: not going to take all that much lube for target velocities. Mine did fine in the lube department with a single coating of the Lee liquid Alox.
The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies. Patrick Henry
is he who heals the most gullies. Patrick Henry
- J Miller
- Member Emeritus
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Re: Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
earlmck,
Appreciate the offer but my loading equipment is all torn down and packed away.
I haven't touched it in a couple years and honestly have no idea when I'd be able to get to it.
I was mostly just thinking out loud.
Joe
Appreciate the offer but my loading equipment is all torn down and packed away.
I haven't touched it in a couple years and honestly have no idea when I'd be able to get to it.
I was mostly just thinking out loud.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
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Re: Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
This is a 30 cal version of a schutzen bullet, which started as a black powder sport with the 32-40 being the most popular round which it still is. In competition these guys used just one case, decaping, priming and useing it for every shot. Pressures were low so there was no need to resize the neck. Bullets were breech seated in the barrel with the base just ahead of the case mouth, so the issue of having a bulleted neck to large for the chamber did not exist.
The bottle neck 30 caliber rounds never caught on in the schutzen game, which was pretty much killed off by WWI. There has been a recent revival in the sport and a few clubs in German communities has have kept on over the years.
The bottle neck 30 caliber rounds never caught on in the schutzen game, which was pretty much killed off by WWI. There has been a recent revival in the sport and a few clubs in German communities has have kept on over the years.
- earlmck
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Re: Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
Sure, that makes sense. No wonder it didn't work very well when I seated the bullet into the neck of the case -- much too large in diameter for that. Thanks for the info, Charles.Charles wrote: Bullets were breech seated in the barrel with the base just ahead of the case mouth, so the issue of having a bulleted neck too large for the chamber did not exist.
The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies. Patrick Henry
is he who heals the most gullies. Patrick Henry
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- Advanced Levergunner
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- Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:29 pm
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Re: Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
Bottleneck cases just didn't cut it in the Schutzen game and all 30 caliber cases of the day were bottleneck, but they gave it a try anyway. You just can't keep rifle loonies from trying everything that comes along. Guy Loverin picked up the multi-band idea and adapted it to bottle neck rounds with considerable sucess.
Don't anybody take offense at the "rifle loonie" thing, because I are one!
Don't anybody take offense at the "rifle loonie" thing, because I are one!
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Re: Attn: Mainehunter -- Shooting the 311403 Pope bullet.
Earl I sure do thank you for the offer.I would imagine that the chamber and throat on the Savage 24V would be to tight to load that bullet. But it sure would be nice to have something to shoot them in.
JerryB II Corinthians 3:17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
JOSHUA 24:15
JOSHUA 24:15