Jacketed or RNFP lead for 357 Mag Winchester 94 Trapper ???

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:39 pm

I picked up a Winchester model 94 Trapper (to be my main shooting rifle for range work and to try to get something that is fun to shoot but costs less per shot than my .44 Mag/ .44 Special Henry lever rifle while I figure out about reloading.)
So, the first question is, am I better off with lead bullets in RNFP or jacketed, semi-jacketed rounds in terms of cleaning hassle, potential for damage to the bore, etc??? I fired off 100 rounds of lead RNFP and it did not seem to be too tough to clean the lead out (did I miss something?), and then I fired off 100 semi-jacketed hollow points, and again, cleaning was pretty routine. I've heard of people having to scrub the copper out or having to scrub the lead out, etc. Which is less of a problem/hassle?

Also, does anyone know if the Winchester model 94 Trappers have a special liking for 125 grain bullets vs. 158? I may have had a bad batch of 158 grain RNFP's, because at 25 yards the shots touched each other and at 50 yards the shots, honestly and literally, were all over the cardboard backing for the target, probably amounted to groups of, literally, 18 inches! With 125 grain bullets, the 25 and 50 yard shots were touching. OK, since I've gone and asked the question, I'll fill in the details:

--Mild winds, sunnny day, outdoor range
--Winchester model 94AE, Trapper, 357
--Simmons 3-9 x 40 scope; magnification set to 4x (50 yard groups were the same wild flying shots with mag set to 4x, 6x, and 9x)
--357 Mag lead RNFP (from Georgia Arms) 158 grain bullets, decent groups at 25 yards, wild flying bullets at 50 yards
--38 special lead RNFP (from Georgia Arms) 125 grain bullets, nice tight groups at 25 yards and at 50 yards
--357 Mag Remington UMC SJHP 125 grain bullets, nice tight groups at 25 yards and at 50 yards

Was the problem the 158 grain bullets in general, or just that particualar batch? I've got some 357 Mag 125 and 158 grain JHP's on order from Georgia Arms, and also some more of those 125 grain RNFP lead 38 Specials.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:15 pm

Copper wash will act as a wonderful binder for the lead to stick to. Much harder to clean lead off copper than nickel steel.

I've seen Win 94 357s with .3565 bores and then there's mine at .3585.

Slug your bore. I'll wager the .358 GA rounds are too small a diameter for your barrel.

Not sure why the 125s didn't do the same - maybe they are hotter and obturated???

I'll also wager that you can seat a WFN .360 diameter bullet out to 1.80" without engraving.

Have Mike Rintoul of Grizzly load you some .360" Cast Performance 187s over a healthy dose of Lil'gun.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:18 pm

BTW those GA 158 JHPs use Speer Gold Dots and are great personal defense loads.

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:26 pm

I shot the 158 grain lead RNFP 357 Mag ammo first, and when it was flying all ove rthe target at 50 yards, I thought something was wrong with the rifle, or the scope. So, I backed up to 25 yards, and got decent groups. So, I thought that maybe the rifle can't handle lead bullets, or RNFP... Then i put the 38's into the rifle. They were 125 grains, not 158 grains, but were lead RNFP. Fired real nice groups at 25 and 50 yards, so then I wondered if the problem was 125 grain vs 158 grain bullets. I was out of ammo, so I went to Wal-Smart and the only 357's they had at that store were the Remington UMC 125 grain SJHP's. Back to the range and Wow!...they were fine at 50 yards. Real nice groups. So, maybe the problem is that the 158 grain lead RNFP's in 357 were a bad batch...? Or that the bullets were the wrong diameter for my rifle, but then why were the 38's OK?> They were also lead RNFP, looked like the same bullets except they were 125 grain instead of 158 grains?

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:38 pm

We don't have your rifle so we can't answer the question (lacking details). With all guns I think it is like the doctor says, if it hurts don't do it. Sometimes, when it is wrong it is just wrong and there isn't necessarily an APPARENT reason.

I will recommend that before you shoot lead, clean the jacketed bullet fouling from your bore. Basic trouble shooting.

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:42 pm

Sorry if I seem kind of thick-headed....

So, it sounds like the copper jacketed bullets actually make more of a mess than the lead bullets?

and/or

Firing both copper-jacketed and lead bullets will make a heck of a mess?

I'll let you know what happens when I compare the 357 JHP's in 125 grain bullet vs. 158 grain bullets. My order with Georgia Arms is "pending" and I am wondering if I'll get that ammo in time to shoot this weekend.

crs · Post by **crs** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:38 pm

You may want to check and compare the velocity of each type bullet. It may be that the 125 gr bullets velocity is sufficient to stabilize them, but
the velocity of the 158 grain bullets will not stabilize them. While at this you should check the rate of twist of your barrel. Though stabilization equations can be complicated, they are heavily influenced by bullet length and heavier bullets are usually longer than lighter bullets.
TIP: try this link for a primer on twist rate
http://www.uslink.net/~tom1/twistrate.htm

Let us know what you learn.

PS - In my .357 rifle, the faster the bullets, the smaller the groups. This is especially true for 110, 125, 140, and 158 gr jacketed bullets; I have yet to shoot heavier bullets, but plan to try the BB 180 gr soon. My Douglas barrel never met slow bullet it liked!

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:53 am

1:16 twist.

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:37 am

Thanks for the great info. I am not sure of the bullet lengths. I might be able to find that out by digging around on the Georgia Arms website if they sell the bullets as individual components instead of just loaded ammo. I know next to nothing about ballistics and that kind of thing, but I was kind of imagining that maybe the rifle was not able to stabalize the 158 grain bullets. It is a Trapper, and I was thinking that maybe the extra length of a carbine would make a difference in terms of stabalizing the 158 grain bullets, but as I said, this was all stuff I imagined and it is not based on any knowledge. Plus, I wonder if the few extra inches of barrel legnth on a carbine vs the Trapper would make any difference at all for this kind of thing.

I've always heard people say that you have to try different ammo and see what your rifle likes. I never realized how much that statement was true. In my busines, I tell patients all day long that there are lots of things we in medicine do not understand about what goes on in the human body. We think we are so smart and we think we have it all figured out, but sometimes things happen and we may never understand the reasons why. I guess the same is true for rifles and bullets. Still, I'd like to have some sort of systematic way to select ammo for this rifle, other than saying "Well, the big shiney silvery colored ones do not seem to work as well as those smaller brown and grey ones from the third shelf down at the Wal-Mart store in town that is close to the Starbucks, but not the Wal-Mart that is across the street from the diner..." Oh well, I know you think that reloading would solve that dilemna for me, and you're probably right. Maybe this summer...

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:10 am

The erratic results your getting are pretty similar to what I got. The 158gr rnfp would not work with Unique powder no matter what I did but when I dropped to the 125gr and Unique I got it right with 6.2gr of Unique, with this load I can get easy 2" groups at 100 yds. I am now going to start trying to develop a load with the 158 and 2400, hopefully the higher velocity will work with the bigger bullet.
One thing I have noticed is that Glenn Fryxell was right about the 357 printing different loads to very different points of impact. I noticed that some of my loads will print up to 8" to the right or left of other loads at only 50 yds.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:26 am

Here's what I think I know about my Win 94 Trapper:

It like faster bullets.
It likes heavy bullets. It likes light bullets. It likes .360" diameter cast bullets.
It will cycle, chamber and shoot accurately 38 Special wadcutters.
After shooting a magazine full of rounds, the barrel is not hot at the muzzle, and my friends 20" 357 is not hot the last five or six inches after a magazine full. This leads me to believe the extra length of barrel is not needed for complete burn. Our loads are the same speed over the chronograph, which leads me to believe the extra barrel length is not needed for velocity. I can sight his longer gun a little better shooting freehand. I think the longer barrel helps here. I'll not trade my Trapper though!
It's most accurate load was 187 grain Cast Performance WFN GCs over 18.5 grains of Lil'gun seated to 1.85" with WSPM primers @ 1968 fps.
It shoots well with 180 grain WFN GC hard cast bullets at 1500 fps, over 13 grains of 2400 powder and WSPM primers, seated to normal 357 Magnum 1.59" length.

When I first got my Trapper, I spent countless hours playing with it and working up loads.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/Trapper.html

I have since found that all four of the Win 94 357 Magnums I've come to know all had the same long chambers and barrel diameter varied from .3565" to .358+". The guys with the tighter barrels do not need to turn their 360 Dan Wesson brass for best accuracy. I have since opened my Trapper's chamber with a 357 max finishing reamer just enough to accommodate the Dan Wesson brass full thickness.

If you don't reload and are just planning on shooting for fun, try a bag of 38 wadcutters. They will do nicely on small game too. They are about the least expensive ammo you can buy. Shoot more

For home defense, those GA 158 grain JHPs will do great.

For hunting larger game, a 180 grain hard cast from one of the premium ammo makers is sweet. Mike Rintoul at Grizzly Cartridge would be my choice. If I did not cast or load, I would buy from him.

I also bought backups of all the parts unique to the .357 from Winchester since they stopped producing the gun. The Win 94 was not made for such a short cartridge and several parts are unique to the 357.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:28 am

Thanks Tycer. Your post is comprehensive.

I find that engineers tend to overthink some of these things. Following some basics like bullet fit, cleaning correctly, matching bullet to twist rate and then allowing for some intuitive "reasoning" is the best way to get the most out of any particular gun.

E.g. I know of one .38-55 Winchester which would have .002" over groove diameter 249 gr. PB bullets launched at an average velocity of 1249fps tip, sometimes, at 50 yards. The charge is the old standard of H-4227. Upped the charge by .1 gr and that went away. Chronograph 50 rounds and the average velocity is STILL 1249 fps. So, why were the bullets tipping? Who knows, I don't. We found later, due to a loading error, that the bullets wouldn't tip when the charge was REDUCED .2 gr. That makes no "sense". Interesting. Anyway that sort of experience will change you from a pure engineering approach to a slightly more intuitive approach.

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:48 am

Excellent replies all.

To speak towards Hobie's point about intuitiveness, or intuition, I'll merely make mention that in most of the guns I've ever loaded for, the .357magnum being one, every gun is different, and will "vibrate" differently from another one made on the same day by the same hands.
This could be better illustrated by a physicist, but I will tell you this:

If you reloaded for this particular gun, and didn't have to "settle" for factory ammo, you'd be eliminating most of this nonsense.

*Cue dream-sequence music and fade to this scenario:

Imagine if you will you sitting at a bench paying your usual attention to detail, and drawing endless glee at the recipes you've concocted for whatever you want to shoot. You delight in the very process of selecting bullets and powders based on WHAT WORKS in YOUR gun. You know that your gun likes X brand powder for X weight bullets, and that you can achieve the velocities desired by tweaking X variable.

You take you selected and personally handcrafted loads to the range with your little notebook, and record the data. You SEE the results immediatley.
By trial and error, you find yourself shooting a 1.5" group at 100yds, and to use a control group, then fire a 3" group with factory ammo.

You cannot contain the pride and joy welling up inside of you, and smugly surmise that you are a better "ammo manufacturer" than any other for your guns. You are right, so long as you remain conservative.

Fast-forward to you in the field on any given morning during deer season, and here you are with your handy little Trapper and your own reloads that you KNOW will group well. You're getting fidgety, because you've bee standing for an hour when a 10-poiter stroll into your line of sight and presents a 75yd shot to you as he dips for another acorn. You let fly with your custom deer load and he runs 25 yds and drops only to expire with both lungs blown out. You bullet hit EXACTLY where you aimed, and did it's job very efficiently.

You turn tward the camera with the old Stanley Roper look, (from Three's Company,) and the canned laughter is piped in.

Sound too good to be true?
You haven't reloaded then, have you?

-I know, this went a little long, but I had to illustrate the point: reloading is awesome. If you have the wherewithal, you should be shopping for a basic and solid reloading setup, and not more factory ammo. You'll be glad you did.

Then you can post range reports to strut your stuff.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:13 am

Yep, something about turning wheel weights into dinner has a primal satisfaction.