The Myth of Handgun “Stopping Power”

[FWiedner]

Just for interest and / or education...

http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=19467

[piller]

Interesting. What hunting experience I have is that shot placement is more important than the caliber within a limited set of circumstances. To extrapolate, handgun stopping power should also be heavily weighted in favor of shot placement within a limited set of circumstances. I am not convinced that a handgun that I can conceal will stop anyone who is determined to harm me in their tracks, but that it will slow them enough for me to be able to fight back or get away. Now, I will wait for those with real world experience to weigh in.

[Old Ironsights]

He is kinda, sorta right. All bets/calculations go out the window when hit by 2200ftlbs of .454

[Mich Hunter]

You know what they say about opinions right?? This debate has been going on forever. In one corner you have the home scientist that have it all figured out then you have those that think they know it all because the read it on the internet and are self proclaimed "experts" and have no operational experience. In the end, I can kill anything in North America with a 22LR and proper shot placement. But it probably isn't ideal. Some folks seem to be trying to over complicate this subject. Is bullet selection matter? You bet and the technology has come far but most can be subject to a good marketing solution for a non problem. Shot placement? Sure is but things don't always go as planned. You think you get a rush and have a hard time when zeroing in on a large game animal? Try it on a human.

In the end, the biggest/fastest chunk of lead wins.

[Grizz]

I've killed maybe thirty, probably more, deer with a 44 mag handgun.

Deer are thin skinned but their hides are much tougher than ours are. I don't imagine the forensic results on humans could be much different.

[Griff]

[PC mode off]
I'll relate a story. (1st hand, I heard this from the shooter). Anyway, once upon a time, I was with a CA Sheriff's Dept (late '80s)... and after briefing one evening, I was asked to take a prisoner (black guy) from the jail to the county hospital to put said prisoner's arm back in his shoulder joint. (Been in a fight with a white guy and had his arm dislocated). I was told this was a shooter in a double homicide in another county, and he was in ours under "protective custody" awaiting trial... as the two perps he shot were members of the Crips... (ethnic gang highly involved in drug trafficking and known to kill those they considered interlopers... or those that "dissed" them), and this guy certainly "dissed" 'em!

So's... as I'm leaving the jail, driving him to the hospital, I asked him how he'd killed two crips, survived AND come to be arrested for a double homicide. He was relunctant to talk, but I told him, "hey, I ain't doin' nuttin' but making conversation to pass the time... 'sides, anything you say to me ain't admissable as it's just hearsay." {That's a lie, but what'd he know}? "I KNOW you wanna brag a little!"

So he told me his life story... and in the interests of making a long story short; in pertinent part: these two crips show up at his crib to get some money he owed them for drugs he was supposed to sell for them. Only he wasn't home. He arrived a few minutes later, and one of them had ahold of his wife, holding her with a knife at her throat, saying, "...if you don't give us our f-ing money, I'll cut the b-tch's throat."

He said his wife was squirming around and got away from the 1st guy, so he "...took my pistol out and shot that "n-----r" in the chest."

I then asked, "okay, what happened to cause you to shoot the 2nd one?"

His answer; and I quote: "I didn't know that 44 Magnum would go thru that 1st n-----r and kill da other'n too!"

I know why, but I often wonder if maybe he didn't deserve some kinda medal. Certainly rid humanity of a couple pieces of trash. Not that a drug-dealing perp is much better.

[PC mode back on]

Yes, some handguns have "stopping power!" Both the antagonists were down after the protagonist fired one shot. I asked what ammo he used. He said, ".44 Magnum." Didn't know or seem to care about it's ballistics... just that "it was a .44 Magnum."

BTW, don't ask, I never read the newspaper or any other accounts of this encounter... I saw enough garbage every day... I didn't need to read about more.

I will say this, that after the study of several shootings, our theory became that TOO MUCH pentration is just as bad as not enough. The prevailing philosophy as I now understand it is to have enough pentration to reach the vitals, transferring all the bullets energy in the process. If the round exits... it has excess energy and might not prove to be a "stopper". So, whether you use a .22 or a .454, circumstances (distance, cover and other variables), might make any or all, non-sufficient in their "stopping" capability.

[AJMD429]

Sometimes it's interesting to 'switch places' when analyzing a situation...

I think about what I'd do if I got shot by something, and I guess I'm a weenie, but I think if someone shot me with a .22 Short, even in a non-vital area, I'd probably slip in my own feces as I was running away in tears. It just amazes me to hear stories of guys absorbing many rounds of powerful ammunition, yet still aggressing strongly. I suppose it's in the adrenaline, the drugs they may be abusing, and the motivation.

[J35]

[quote="AJMD429"]Sometimes it's interesting to 'switch places' when analyzing a situation...

"It just amazes me to hear stories of guys absorbing many rounds of powerful ammunition, yet still aggressing strongly. I suppose it's in the adrenaline, the drugs they may be abusing, and the motivation."

Those things plus the big one Genetics some people are just more "GAME" than others, just like animals are.

stay safe -- J

[BigSky56]

+1 on a 22, A rancher over on the Blackfeet Rez that I know was out looking for a lost cow found her in a gully when he rode his atv up to her a grizz got up and charged him all he had was a 22 rifle emptied the rifle in the throat and chest it was a justified shooting but he got in trouble $ for not reporting it in a timely fashion. All the years he's been there never seen bears out on the prairie. Its all about shot placement boys a 22 in the right spot is as good as a 500 S&W unless your trying to kill the one right behind them then I'll vote for using AP rounds. danny

[horsesoldier03]

You definately have to hit vitals for any round to be effective. While .22s and other pocket gun rounds have been effective, I still prefer the .45 ACP as compared to a .38 or 9MM. At most handgun velocities, I feel the BIG and SlOW beats small and fast. But hey, big and fast works too LOL!

IMO, anyone using FMJ or cast bullets in a self defense load is not acting responsibly. I know there are exceptions such as the old FBI Load and soft cast loads with a low brinell hardness rate. Over penetration not only fails to transfer energy but it also places anyone in the area at danger once the bullet departs the body of your intended recipient. In Griffs story, it sounds to me like the wife was lucky that she was not behind CRIP #1 when her husband shot him. It also goes to show the limited ballistic knowledge of the average or maybe not so average JOE out there. Pistols are definately not the best choice for a gunfight but they definately have their place when dealing with situations in urban settings.

[Old Savage]

Transferring all the energy is not the only goal. How much energy is transferred is the issue. Tissue destruction is a measure of what was transferred and if greater adds more to the effect. If you take a round with much more energy 45 ACP vs 44 Mag., I think I will bet on the 44. Bullet performance is also an important factor and may be the deciding factor is such a scenario other factors being equal.

[gundownunder]

I think I'd go with what ever I could shoot straightest and fastest, because I'm betting that the first person to put a bullet in the right place will win.

[Griff]

OS, our studies showed that high velocity rounds tend to pass thru without as much tissue damage as slower, big caliber rounds. Those didn't include studies of .44Mag rounds as it was deemed too powerful for most officers to handle. But, as I recall it did include comparisons with various .38+P, .357Mag, 9 mm and the .45ACP. We didn't have but two officer involved shootings in our department during my tenure... but after the second where a suspect absorbed 11 hits with our anemic .38+Ps failed to bring him down, (no vital hits, but was arrested as his little deringer ran out of ammo and he reloaded), we switched to 9mm Beretta 92Fs. It had more to do with #s of rounds available and the ability of a wider range of folks capable of handling it. Interestingly, it was NOT the round and platform recommended to Command. Those of us in jobs that allowed it, continued with our .38+Ps (158gr JHP) or .45ACPs (200gr JHP).

I think I'd go with what ever I could shoot straightest and fastest, because I'm betting that the first person to put a bullet in the right place will win.

+1

[Old Savage]

Griff, the deer I shot (already adrenalized) squarely through the front of the chest quartering from the front just inside the left shoulder and out the right rib cage with a 45-70 at 1750 TSX that I do not believe opened appeared only enraged. Another side to side through the rib cage just made him madder. A third through the heart more or less just let the air out of him. So I know a 45 caliber at even that velocity, 454 like, won't necessarily blow them down. But I see that what you are talking about are cop rounds.

[horsesoldier03]

Old Savage, unfortunately, I no longer own a .44 mag in a revolver or I would be right there with you!

I couldnt agree more on shooting what you can shoot the fastest and most accurately, thats why we should train to master any weapon we might carry. With CCW being the primary reason that people carry a firearm for self defense these days another important factor is concealability. I for one do favor my .38 J Frame over my 1911 when it comes to being comfortable while carrying.

The first rule in a gun fight is to have a gun. So bring what you got and load it with the best effective load that you can for your intended purpose.

In the end, it all boils down to individual abilities and preferences. What might be right for one, isnt necessarily right for all.

[JohndeFresno]

Ho, hum. Here we go again - Apples and Oranges.

The Subject: "Handgun Stopping Power"

The Argument (from respected, experienced hunters): "Shot placement is (nearly) everything." Good advice for hunters.

The Flaw in that Logic: In a gunfight, you aren't using shooting sticks, or a scope, or stopping and holding your breath and then gently squeezing the trigger. You may be reaching for a firearm, or dodging, or running, your adrenalin pumping. Your target hasn't just paused from eating a clump of grass, straightened his ears, and then stood in a silhouette, turning his nose toward you to sniff the air. No - he is likely already in motion, shooting at you, and (usually) smarter than a deer or bear. But not too much smarter, it would seem.

Since an occasion might occur where your shots might not be perfectly placed and planned as with a hunt, and where you haven't had the opportunity to set up behind a log or in a stand, it is quite likely that your shot placement will be less than perfect. You are lucky to hit "center mass." For that reason, if no other, a large caliber, or at least a bullet that makes a big, nasty hole, makes a lot of sense to me.

If shot placement is the sine qua non of handgun stopping power, then why did the U.S. Army drop the very easily controlled .38 caliber pistol and replace it with the .45 caliber handgun during the Moro Insurrection in the Phillippines? And why did they hold onto that large caliber for so many years afterward?

So, unless we are indeed talking about Handgun effectiveness in hunting, it seems to me that the term "Stopping Power" usually applies to defensive situations, and the shot placement thing is like discussing Apples and Oranges. And in a gun fight, perhaps we should talk about cherries, instead; because it's the pits.