Krag questions - UPDATE

[awp101]

A couple of weeks ago, I ran across someone selling barreled Norwegian Krag actions. They appeared to be complete minus the wood and had what looked to be aftermarket barrels installed that were tagged as being 6.5x55 (which would be correct for a Norwegian Krag).

I've found sporter stocks which are fine since it would be a part of my sporter accumulation and the 6.5 is a favorite of mine.

I've read for years the Krag actions were "weak". Recently I think I've seen it was because the US tried to up the oomph of the .30-40 after meeting the 7x57 in the Spanish-American War. The extra power was more than the action could take and the beefed up ammunition was pulled down and reloaded to the original specs.

Here's what I don't know. Were there any such issues with the 6.5x55 models? I'd be using the same factory loads or handloads (SAAMI spec) I use in my Swede Mausers. Any concerns there over and above the normal ones when dealing with 100+ year old rifles?

[765x53]

According to Frank de Haas in his book "Bolt Action Rifles", Most Norwegian Krags were made years after U.S. Krags and of better steel and are entirely adequate for standard 6.5x55 factory loads.

[Lefty Dude]

Just remember the Krag has only one locking lug on the bolt. I am sure you could run higher pressure loads with a 7X57 mauser action. Find out what pressure the Krag was designed for.
I would not try and compete with a Mauser Velocity verses Velocity with a Krag.
The U. S. Military tried and the 1903 Springfield was the result and the Krag went By-By in a very short time.

I have a 1894 U.S. Krag, and shoot only mild loads in the piece.

[olyinaz]

The Norwegian Krag action is safe for SAAMI spec loads. Most Norwegians I've spoken with load them mild out of respect for their age, but spec loads are perfectly safe.

Oly

[kragluver]

The Krag action is not "weak" - it is not as strong as a Mauser, but it is fully capable of handling the loads it was designed for (40KSI). The Norwegian Krags can handle a bit higher pressure (from what I understand) as they chose to let the guide rib bear on the receiver. US ordnance chose to provide clearance between the guide rib and the receiver for unknown reasons; although, I suspect it was to ease manufacture and keep them from having to go to hand-fitted or serialized bolts. Nevertheless, all Krag's actually have two safety lugs in addition to the primary bolt lug in the receiver - the bolt guide rib and the bolt handle. The oft-quoted fear of the single bolt lug on the Krag being somehow weak and unsafe is unfounded.

You might be interested to know that the Springfield Armory museum has a dual locking lug Krag that was apparently used during the 1892 Magazine Rifle trials. Why it was not the design that was finally adopted is unknown. Who knows??

For more on the strength of the Krag action, read the chapter in PO Ackley's book on the strength of military rifle actions. He tested a large number of military actions to destruction in order to learn about the various failure mechanisms. The Krag action in each case failed in a safe manner and surprised him with its strength.

[KCSO]

IF the barrel was put in right the Norway Krag sould bear on bothe the locking and the safety lug. This is where the US Krag fell down as it bears on the locking lug only. When I rebarrel krags i normaly lap in the lugs for full contact on both lugs. A safety issue and I can't say for sure that it actually handles higher pressure as i don't hot rod my Krags. I have fired a lot of factory Norma ammo from a Norway Krag with no problems.

[awp101]

Thanks guys! Now for the questions...

Just remember the Krag has only one locking lug on the bolt.

That's bothered me a bit but then I see this:

The Norwegian Krags can handle a bit higher pressure (from what I understand) as they chose to let the guide rib bear on the receiver. US ordnance chose to provide clearance between the guide rib and the receiver for unknown reasons; although, I suspect it was to ease manufacture and keep them from having to go to hand-fitted or serialized bolts. Nevertheless, all Krag's actually have two safety lugs in addition to the primary bolt lug in the receiver - the bolt guide rib and the bolt handle. The oft-quoted fear of the single bolt lug on the Krag being somehow weak and unsafe is unfounded.

Interesting. I never thought about the guide rib or bolt handle being safety lugs. And again, this would only see commercial ammunition (other than S&B which is loaded hot anyway) or appropriate handloads.

For more on the strength of the Krag action, read the chapter in PO Ackley's book on the strength of military rifle actions.

How ironic. I was quoting from that chapter on another forum where someone was claiming the Arisaka was much weaker than the 1903 or M1917. I wasn't thinking Krag at the time so I didn't look. DOH! BTW, I went through the .30-40 vs 7x57 thread on gunboards. I think you had some info there? Either way, it's a very interesting thread.

IF the barrel was put in right the Norway Krag sould bear on bothe the locking and the safety lug.

How would one check during a pre-buy inspection?

I'm still not sure what I want to do yet. Debating this project or a Interarms G33/50 that needs a little TLC but is otherwise complete.

[awp101]

Well, after reading this thread a few more times and Mr Ackley's test results I had to go look at the two actions again. To make a long story short (too late! ), I need to know what I've gotten myself into since a 1916 dated one followed me home...








Boyd's has Krag carbine stocks (http://www.boydsgunstocks.com/US-KRAG-C ... 00-282.htm) but I'm not sure what to do for sights. S&K makes a scope mount but I don't know if it fits the Norwegians and it's offset which isn't my favorite. Williams has a receiver sight but I'm still looking for a picture of one installed.

No matter what, it should be a fun project and shooter.

[kragluver]

How ironic. I was quoting from that chapter on another forum where someone was claiming the Arisaka was much weaker than the 1903 or M1917. I wasn't thinking Krag at the time so I didn't look. DOH! BTW, I went through the .30-40 vs 7x57 thread on gunboards. I think you had some info there? Either way, it's a very interesting thread.

Yes that was a fun thread. I wish more discussion on that topic would come up.

Very nice barreled action by the way.

[Ji in Hawaii]

WOW can't wait to see the finished product. From what I gather the US simplified the Krag design, and weakened it in the process though still more than adequate for the 30/40 cartridge. I personally would not scope it but try and keep it semi period correct with a peep sight.

[damienph]

My brother has a Danish/Norwegian? Krag that has he says has been "mildly sporterized". He thinks that it is the original barrel, rechambered and bored to 45-70. He bought it exactly the way it is pictured. The receiver is marked GEVAERFABRIKEN KJOBENHAVN 1905 M.89, with 45-70 etched inside the magazine. No markings on barrel, what appears to be original sights (to him). The sights are adjustable to 1000 meters and also windage adjustable. It has a magazine cutoff and the safety also can lock the bolt. He says that it shoots well enough but does have feeding issues. It always feeds first round from the magazine but sometimes will not feed second or third round. We live over 1000 miles from each other so I have never had the chance to handle or fire it.

Pictures below from his cell phone:



I thought that some of you Krag guys might enjoy seeing it.

[airedaleman]

My brother has a Danish/Norwegian? Krag that has he says has been "mildly sporterized". He thinks that it is the original barrel, rechambered and bored to 45-70. He bought it exactly the way it is pictured. The receiver is marked GEVAERFABRIKEN KJOBENHAVN 1905 M.89, with 45-70 etched inside the magazine. No markings on barrel, what appears to be original sights (to him). The sights are adjustable to 1000 meters and also windage adjustable. It has a magazine cutoff and the safety also can lock the bolt. He says that it shoots well enough but does have feeding issues. It always feeds first round from the magazine but sometimes will not feed second or third round. We live over 1000 miles from each other so I have never had the chance to handle or fire it.

Pictures below from his cell phone:



I thought that some of you Krag guys might enjoy seeing it.

Danish Model 1889 Krag, originally chambered for the 8x58R cartridge, which had a rim diameter of .575", very close to the 45-70's .600" rim. Suspect the rifle's been rebarreled, since a .323 rebored to
.452 or thereabouts would result in a barrel wall thickness more suited to a shot gun - or maybe a paper cup.
The Danish Krag sported a barrel jacket like the the German 88 Commision rifle, and the magazine cover
pivoted forward, rather than down as in the US and Norwegian variants.

[damienph]

Danish Model 1889 Krag, originally chambered for the 8x58R cartridge, which had a rim diameter of .575", very close to the 45-70's .600" rim. Suspect the rifle's been rebarreled, since a .323 rebored to
.452 or thereabouts would result in a barrel wall thickness more suited to a shot gun - or maybe a paper cup.
The Danish Krag sported a barrel jacket like the the German 88 Commision rifle, and the magazine cover
pivoted forward, rather than down as in the US and Norwegian variants.

I suspected that it might have been rebarreled since he said that there are no markings on it. Also, the sights (front one at least) don't look like originals to me. I'll have to ask him about which way the magazine opens, I thought that they all hinged downward. We are getting together at our uncle's farm in Tyler TX for a hog hunt this spring. I am negotiating a trade for it. He won't sell, it has to be some sort of trade. We'll see.

[walks with gun]

I'm not sure but if I remember right either the Norwegian or Danish krags barrels are threaded with a left hand thread. Just in case you decide to change barrels.

[olyinaz]

Boyd's has Krag carbine stocks (http://www.boydsgunstocks.com/US-KRAG-C ... 00-282.htm) but I'm not sure what to do for sights. S&K makes a scope mount but I don't know if it fits the Norwegians and it's offset which isn't my favorite. Williams has a receiver sight but I'm still looking for a picture of one installed.

No matter what, it should be a fun project and shooter.

Who put the new barrel on it do you know? I have one with a shot out barrel that needs to have something done with it.

Also, the U.S. Krag stock will not fit a Norwegian Krag (or Danish). The designs are all based on Ole Krag's, but they're significantly different for each application.

Oly Krag, my namesake:



I was thinking that I should get one of those uniforms and wear it to work some day. Maybe I'd get some tips from deplaning passengers.

Cheers,
Oly

[awp101]

oly, we don't know who did the rebarrel or who the barrel manufacturer is. They are unmarked.

The seller told me he took them in from someone who decided they were over his skill level but I didn't ask if the previous owner did the rebarrel or if they were done before then.