Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Rossi Puma 45Colt with factory scout scope setup. Went to the range last weekend, less than ideal conditions, gusty crosswinds, but I wanted to sight in and try my Simmons 4x LER scout scope. I hadn't been able to really try out this rifle at distance yet.
I had loaded 250g XTP over 25gr and 26gr H110.
After zeroing the scope, set up at 100 yards (benchrest) and tried both loads. The 26gr of H110 seemed to give the best groups, but nothing spectacular. I could get 5 shot groups within a 5.5" Shoot-n-See, but not much smaller spread than that. I'm planning on using this for hunting and it shoots "Minute of Deer", but I was a bit disappointed. My Marlin 1894 44 Rem Mag does better at 100 yards (~2" groups).
I don't want to give up on the 45Colt for hunting, so do I live with the accuracy or do I considering bedding, etc? I've done bedding before, but was hoping I wouldn't have to get into it.
I CAN THINK OF 25 OR 30 LOADS I WOULD TEST BEFORE I'D EVEN CONSIDER MESSING WITH THE CARBINE.
BY THE WAY, DID YOU DOUBLE TEST ALL OF THE SCREWS ON THAT GUN, MOUNT, RINGS ETC FOR TIGHTNESS ??
Terry has a good point, checking all the screws, especially the mounts and rings. Sometimes slightly loosening the for end and magazine band screws helps.
Be sure the bore is ultra clean also. I've had a couple rifles shoot so-so to horrible. A good cleaning made a huge difference, like using a high quality copper solvent until the bore was absolutely clean of all copper residue, not just common cleaning solvents.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
I have a Hartford Model and its one of the most accurate lever guns that I own. The gun just flat out shoots what I aim it at. I use 250 grain S&S bullets RNFP (452), 5.2 Grains of Trail Boss, Winchester WLP primers and Winchester Brass.
The only hunting I have done with it I used Hornady factory ammo and it done its job. Killed a nice doe at about 75 yards with it.
Last edited by Rube Burrows on Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The good point here is the bullet size not the load. Try .454 bullets regardless of what the world's most knowledgeable gun expert says. Don't know if this matters but I have one and the accuracy difference is great with bullet size.
Just trying to say something helpful here.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...
We've gotten 1" to 1-1/2" groups at 50 yards with a 16" barreled Rossi in .44 Magnum, and I see no reason the .45 Colt couldn't do as well if you 'develop' a load a bit. Haven't shot 'groups' at 100 yards with that gun, but 1.3" at 50 yards should be about 2.6" at 100 yards, etc...
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws "first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
In MY Rossi, all the jacketed bullets gave 1½-2" groups at 100 yards with peep sights. This is more than adequate. BUT I only use 23 gr. of H110 albeit under the 300 gr. bullets (300 gr. XTP-MAG and 300 gr. Sierra JFP). I find no need for more. 45Stomp (now on here as ______, dang CRS) used 26 gr. H110 under a 330 gr. cast bullet (IIRC).
You'll find the 250 gr. XTP isn't the MAG bullet, the 240 gr. is. Some folks have reported inadequate penetration with the softer 250 gr. at the velocities you'll be getting with 26 gr. H110.
I think Terry is right (as usual) and you should try other bullets. I tried the load you're using and it was fine in MY rifle but I changed due to concerns with bullet construction. I just wasn't paying attention.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Old Savage wrote:TERRY didn't say a darn thing about the bullets - I did. Are we being purposely obtuse?
Please observe, emphasis is mine...
TERRY MURBACH wrote:I CAN THINK OF 25 OR 30 LOADS I WOULD TEST BEFORE I'D EVEN CONSIDER MESSING WITH THE CARBINE.
BY THE WAY, DID YOU DOUBLE TEST ALL OF THE SCREWS ON THAT GUN, MOUNT, RINGS ETC FOR TIGHTNESS ??
Loads include bullets. At least they used to.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Dont forget primers too , after youve checked all screws and bedding , etc. Ours do well with 23.0 H110 and 250 gr XTPs; 26.0 gr H110 and 300 gr XTP. The best results have come with Tula or Wolf large pistol magnum primers. Results fall in the 1 1/2-2" range @ 100' The very generous "in spec" 45 colt chambers and bore dimensions can make tuning a bit more challenging. If all else fails check out the April issue of "Precision Shooting" magazine for an article on serious extensive invasive levergun accuracy tuning.
FWIW, my 16" Big Loop Carbine .45 Colt M92 LSI/Rossi does about 3" @ 100yds, with a bolt peep sight & me driving - using Cor-Bon 1100fps factory loads.
5-1/2", as the smallest grouping @ 100yds, seems excessively large to me, too.
rogn wrote:The very generous "in spec" 45 colt chambers and bore dimensions can make tuning a bit more challenging.
Good point.
You might try slugging your bore to see if it is at least remotely in-spec; it seems like lots of .45 Colt (and .44 Mag) leverguns are over-bore.
For some reason, I've never heard that issue raised with the .357 ones, but the .32-20 ones range from .308 to .314 but seem to shoot well without alot of fuss, so maybe it's only a problem in larger calibers (seems like it would be the other way, though...).
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws "first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Well I guess in a general sense but that can include a lot else. Let's be a wee mite more specific.
Mine does not have a generous chamber but it shot 451 bullets into a pattern bigger than yours at 50 yds. Love the rifle but disappointed. Got some basic reloads with .454 bullets (RN with flat point) from a friend that likes to use that size and things tightened right up. Then CowboyTutt gave me some loads with a custom 360 gr SWC bullet that measures .453 and 18.5 gr. of H110. That is the most accurate that I have had so far. One is a light load in that rifle. The other is a stout load, 360 gr at 1350 fps. The larger bullet size seems to be the key here. I shot those heavy loads off a bench with factory open sights so under those conditions I think 1 7/8" is reasonably good. With the B92 44 Mag I had three touching for the first group shooting same place and same way.
Last edited by Old Savage on Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...
Another possibility.....how new is the rifle.....how many rounds through it? In a rifle NIB you might need to fire 200-300 rounds through it to rub out the factory rough stuff. Perhaps a little bore lapping would turn the trick.
Lobo in West Virginia
Old List Veteran..Five Years..Five Hundred Posts
I also have a Puma 92 in 45 Colt. Mine hasn't performed very well to this point. I'm going to paper patch thirty bullets from .452" to .454" and try again with loads that should be reasonable. I know a difference of .002"-.003" in bullet diameter can take a six inch (100 yard) group, and make it a 1 1/2 inch group. Additionally, the paper (as in regular copy paper) is somewhat abrasive, and will polish the barrel at the same time.
Lobo in West Virginia
Old List Veteran..Five Years..Five Hundred Posts
I did firelap one of the 92's it had a bore that tended to foul and patches did tend to drag more in it. The process was a modified NECO process w/ only 3 levels of abrasive. This did reduce group size and fouling. I wouldnt recomend it unless you had positve signs of an abnormally rough bore. It then will usually help. I have never slugged the bores, they do shoot jacketed well. Cast at 0.452 are rather mediocre. suggesting a larger than 452 bore. Will have to check that.
Now you guys got me to wonderin' what the accuracy actually is with my EMF/Rossi mdl 92 in .45 Colt. I shot it at a match about a month ago... and seemed to hit every steel target right where my sights were pointed when I broke each shot. I bought it... loaded it... fired 10 shots at a tree stump to check operation and sights... seemed like a nice off-hand 75 yard group... and went to shootin' it regular. I can set my little steel whiskey jug out at a 100 yards, (about 5" x 10") off-hand. That's probably about as good as I can shoot. If I ever got an "edge hit", it was because that's where it was pointed when the shot broke...
But... maybe... I should actually get a paper target and see if it will "shoot"?
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
My Rossi is one of the older rifles with a half octagon, half round bbl. The issue sights are a square front post and a square notch rear sight, about the only barrel sights I can see any more. Even with my eyes, I have fired 2" groups at 100 yds with the thing using cast loads (all I ever shoot in it). This little gun just really shoots well....
Griff wrote:Now you guys got me to wonderin' what the accuracy actually is with my EMF/Rossi mdl 92 in .45 Colt. I shot it at a match about a month ago... and seemed to hit every steel target right where my sights were pointed when I broke each shot. I bought it... loaded it... fired 10 shots at a tree stump to check operation and sights... seemed like a nice off-hand 75 yard group... and went to shootin' it regular. I can set my little steel whiskey jug out at a 100 yards, (about 5" x 10") off-hand. That's probably about as good as I can shoot. If I ever got an "edge hit", it was because that's where it was pointed when the shot broke...
But... maybe... I should actually get a paper target and see if it will "shoot"?
YOU DO NOT WANT TO KNOW !!! IF IT AIN'T BROKE DO NOT FIX IT, GRIFF. IT IS A SUCCESS AS IS SO LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED !!!
I've gotten several 2 1/2 to 3 inch, five shot 100 yard groups with the little 16" Puma, but it has the aftermarket Marbles sights which are awfully coarse. Suspect it would do better with a finer sighting arrangement.
Bullets used were everything from .452 cast to the 250 XTP, which shows real promise in this gun.
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.
Thanks, Terry, that's pretty much my real feelings.
Old Savage wrote:Griff, what load are you using and do you know the bullet diameter.
I use 6.5 grains of RedDot in front of WLP primers, a 200 grain RFN .4525, seated to the crimp groove and crimped with a nice roll crimp.
3rd from left.
It shoots to perfection in my Colt SAAs and my son's EMF Hartford sixguns. Outta the handguns it clocks about 825fps (IIRC). I learned a LONG time ago, that pushing things HARD is often the way to have accuracy go south. Very, very rarely will you find a maximum load that's also the cartridge's or tester's most accurate loading. So why bother if it doesn't improve accuracy... it's just harder on the brass, the gun and the shooter.
YMMV.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Griff - thanks. Very close to one of my old favorite loads - 6.1 Red Dot with a 250 Keith. Shot very accurate in a number of guns but the bullet is .4515 at the front driving band. Shot very poorly in my Rossi 45 LC but I have a number of other loads to try.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...
I shoot a .452 300-LFNGC over 24 gr of H110 through my 24" Rossi half round, half octagon with a Marbles peep sight, and it keeps five shots inside a 3" shoot-n-see.
