Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
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Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
My friend and I travelled 8 hrs on Monday. Upon arrival it was time to hunt. We both used Win 94's in 30-30 with iron sights. Our gracious host had one request - shoot the hog in each of our respective spots. The big boar hog had taken over a section of food plot and no deer or other animals would come in to it in that section. Same story on both food plots which were about 1/2 mile apart. We could take a big deer 8 pts or more or a doe. First day I saw deer but chose not to shoot. My friend said his rangefinder put the deer at 177 yards - within the trajectory of the cartridge - but his front bead covered the whole chest area so he couldn't make an ethical shot. We got rained out for the next two days. The last day I had deer come out. I experimented with the sights since I did not see a deer I wanted to shoot. At 135 yards I could make a shot that would land into the chest but I could not be precise. At 162 yards exactly the front bead became just a hair bigger than the whole vital area on the deer, making a precise-ethical shot impossible. I now know that rifle is effective with me behind it out to 130 yds max in decent light. Then the big boar hog came out and my rangefinder said 76 yards. I could see it plain as day with my eyes, but I could not decipher the sights on him. After fiddling around, I aimed at a light spot on the ground just under the hog, got the sights leveled and brought the gun up into the boar as I pulled the trigger. I managed to hit the hog - somewhere - as any precision was out the window. It was extremely cloudy and darker than usual even though there was a full 17 minutes of legal shooting time left. Since I caused this mess I refused to let anyone else come into the thicket to help look. One worker insisted. After finding only 3 spots of blood in 25 yards for a half hour of looking someone showed up with a dog. The dog located the hog, still alive with a hole in the middle of him. Two helpers held flashlights on it but even though the hog lit up bright as day I could not see the sights on the Win 94. The dog was having trouble keeping the hog bayed and started to get beat up as he became more aggessive. After a few minutes someone handed me a rifle with a scope. I looked at the flashlight - lit hog through the scope and it was like it was broad daylight. I put a shot precisely in his ear to end the ordeal and save the dog. The owner was extremely appreciative that I had shot the hog as he requested. The 170 grain bullet from the 30-30 entered behind the ribs and did not exit. No blood came out of the hog and it was only slightly deterred. Later, we found it weighed 308 pounds. Someone realized my friend Junior was missing. We went to pick him up on his stand. He was frustated. He has hogs all around him for over a half hour but could not pick up the sights enough to shoot one. Some were as close as 30 yards. His front sight is a black bead where mine is silver and his rear sight has a narrower notch the the wide, square one mine has - so he had even less useable sights than I did. He made a bold statement. He said he "cannot afford to hunt with that rifle away from home". He then summarized the trip as 4 days away from home and obigations and over $650 in expenses. He mostly felt that he let our host down because the old man was having such a problem with hogs and really was counting on us to take a few out. He invested tens of thousands of dollars to bring up the quality of his deer herd. He cannot handle hogs on his own because they often run into thick stuff where he cannot follow, but he has great success on deer in more open areas. He also cant risk a wounded hog challenging him because he is not physically up to it. He counts on his guests to thin out the hogs whenever possible. I guarantee Junior is turned off of iron sighted rifles for a while, plus nobody was impressed by the performance of the 30-30. I learned a lesson too. Although I love to shoot this rifle it was not the proper tool for this job. I will not travel away from home to hunt without a scoped rifle in a caliber a little larger than I think I need. I might bring the 94 too, but not as a sole rifle when time/money/dependece is on the line. In the morning, we both shot at 100 yards. My Win 94 put 2 170gr Speers and 2 150gr Barnes into the same 2 1/2" group from the sitting position. Juniors rifle put 5 Remington 125grs into a 3" circle from the kneeling position. The rifles, ammo and our skills are in check. The sighting system under the circumstances was downright disappointing, especially when it put us at risk (flashlight on the wounded hog - still can't see sights). The caliber is capable of killing a hog of this size at that range with a shot that is placed well. But - anything that would have exited would have gave us a blood trail and possibly slowed this boar down much sooner. My Savage 99 in 308 with 165 gr FP wearing a 2X7X38 scope would have been a welcome companion on this trip. So, once again the moral of the story is to consider your motivation and expectations of the trip and choose equipment that will give you the greatest advantage to see those goals through. Wasn't there a recent thread floating around about iron sights/scopes? This should be copied there for the original poster.......
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Some baulk at scopes on leverguns, call those that use them cheaters, or call them carry handles. Any rifle of mine that is a serious hunting rig will wear a scope, period. There is no reason for me not to. I have plenty of leverguns with iron/peep sights, but when it comes to putting meat on the ground irons can't compete with a scope. Glad you found the hog and got the job done.
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
I know exactly how you felt, Joe. I have had the front sights on my Winchesters cover the vitals on many deer, forcing me to not take the shot. I refuse to take the chance of wounding an animal by taking an uncertain shot. When the hunt involves shots at over 125 yds the Remington 700 gets the nod.
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
I've disliked bead sights for a long time. They, as you've found, are too hard to see under various conditions. Square blade sights, like a Sourdough are easier to see under various conditions, and I believe much easier to be precise with, tho still fall far behind glass for all around use. I've said it before, generally to little avail to those that have made their minds up otherwise, but I can see game much longer in a good scope, literally hours in moonlight, after completely losing the sights and animal with irons of any kind. Not that I hunt after dark, but I sure like the abilty to make a shot if and when I wanted without the sights being the limiting factor. We don't always have a choice to be "sportsmen" or "real hunters".
Some seem to feel that if you use glass, then the only way to look at the issue is then you obviously can't use irons. I say balony. I prefer glass for most of my shooting at this point, but if anyone feels I can't use irons because of that, I'd be happy to make a friendly wager that I can repeatedly hit an 18" steel plate @ 300 yards with an open sighted pistol. One handed. Glass is simply another tool, and generally a vastly superior tool for shooting. It implies nothing about being able to shoot with irons, it simply gives you far more options in what you can do. Hitting running animals isnt an irons only task, I've done it with glass many times. If you have too much scope power, it's hard, but with the right glass, it's no big deal. A good all around rifleman should be able to use both well. If one chooses to handicap themselves for whatever reason, or just like the challenge of irons, OK, but to disparage those that don't make the same choice is a bit silly.
I like irons sights guns, especialy for knockaround carry guns, but when I really want to hit something with certainty, I use glass. Spending money, any money, on a tag, instills a desire to make the best use of my money and time.
Some seem to feel that if you use glass, then the only way to look at the issue is then you obviously can't use irons. I say balony. I prefer glass for most of my shooting at this point, but if anyone feels I can't use irons because of that, I'd be happy to make a friendly wager that I can repeatedly hit an 18" steel plate @ 300 yards with an open sighted pistol. One handed. Glass is simply another tool, and generally a vastly superior tool for shooting. It implies nothing about being able to shoot with irons, it simply gives you far more options in what you can do. Hitting running animals isnt an irons only task, I've done it with glass many times. If you have too much scope power, it's hard, but with the right glass, it's no big deal. A good all around rifleman should be able to use both well. If one chooses to handicap themselves for whatever reason, or just like the challenge of irons, OK, but to disparage those that don't make the same choice is a bit silly.
I like irons sights guns, especialy for knockaround carry guns, but when I really want to hit something with certainty, I use glass. Spending money, any money, on a tag, instills a desire to make the best use of my money and time.
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Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
As in most endeavors, different tools are for different applications. Scopes are just another tool which can be used. I use scopes on my bolt actions, and for shots over 100 yards. Neither side of this debate is truly wrong, but as you pointed out by telling that you couldn't see to shoot with the iron sights and could with the scope, there are times when it is better to use a scope.
D. Brian Casady
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Iron can be a heart breaker in dim light. I used semi buckhorns until my 30's when my eyes started playing tricks on me. I think open sights are for young eyes. I can still use a peep. In the shade or dim light the bead disappears in the notch on me now. As far as front beads the smaller the better. It is a mystery why Marlin put huge beads on their carbines for so long. It does seem about 125-150 yards is about max with factory iron. Less than that with the older Marlin mega beads.
That said, any shot at a varmint is OK. If you slop up a hog it isn't a good thing but at least you killed it.
That said, any shot at a varmint is OK. If you slop up a hog it isn't a good thing but at least you killed it.
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Let me add my support of POST or SOURDOUGH sights because of what you experienced. Post and sourdoughs allow precision use at greater ranges than beads. Of course, that's in conjunction is aperture sights.
Sincerely,
Hobie
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
No one can question a scope's superiority in low-light conditions. But peeps can be made more effective than they tyoically are.
I HATE front-sight beads. Under the best conditions, they do not provide a precise, repeatable sight picture. You're either sighting in to hit dead under the bead (which, as noted, can cover a LOT of target at 100+ yerds), or to hit right at the top-dead-center of the bead, which is impossible to determine shot-to-shot with consistency. A blade eliminates this problem; make that blade silver, and you are more than halfway to better low-light performance.
To complete the package, screw the aperture out of the receiver sight and use just the "ghost ring" that is left. This allows significantly more light to come through.
And a tip for all peepsight use -- learn to aim both-eyes-open. Not only will you gain a much larger field of view, but you will be able to see more of what is within that field.
None of these things will make peeps as good as a decent scope -- but they will narrow the gap by as much as half of that "last 15 minutes of daylight" scenario where a scope really shines.
I HATE front-sight beads. Under the best conditions, they do not provide a precise, repeatable sight picture. You're either sighting in to hit dead under the bead (which, as noted, can cover a LOT of target at 100+ yerds), or to hit right at the top-dead-center of the bead, which is impossible to determine shot-to-shot with consistency. A blade eliminates this problem; make that blade silver, and you are more than halfway to better low-light performance.
To complete the package, screw the aperture out of the receiver sight and use just the "ghost ring" that is left. This allows significantly more light to come through.
And a tip for all peepsight use -- learn to aim both-eyes-open. Not only will you gain a much larger field of view, but you will be able to see more of what is within that field.
None of these things will make peeps as good as a decent scope -- but they will narrow the gap by as much as half of that "last 15 minutes of daylight" scenario where a scope really shines.
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Joe it ended well, that's all that matters. What happened to the Marlin 35?
I hunt 90% of the time in thick, dark areas. I've found that XS front sight or GREEN fiber optic front for me......they stick out like a sore.."....." if you know what I mean.
Thanks, Tom
I hunt 90% of the time in thick, dark areas. I've found that XS front sight or GREEN fiber optic front for me......they stick out like a sore.."....." if you know what I mean.
Thanks, Tom
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
FWIW, I can shoot as well with the Ghost Ring @ 100yds as I can with the scout scope. What little I've used scopes, I prefer them at about 3-4X, or less. When I was reading O'Conner and Keith, a fixed 4x was all that was necessary, and a 6x was a powerful, long range scope
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Well, you can have all the light you'd ever need to shoot with irons...But if your target is in a dark spot.. heavily shaded area... you’ll still wind up guessing where those precisely aligned sights are on your target...
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Now you've learned why to use a 6 oclock hold with a bead front sight. You also don't bury the bead in the sight notch.
The winchester 94 and the 30-30 cartridge is a hunting combination, not something to sit in a blind and wait to kill something coming to feed at dusk...
The winchester 94 and the 30-30 cartridge is a hunting combination, not something to sit in a blind and wait to kill something coming to feed at dusk...
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
+1Don McDowell wrote:Now you've learned why to use a 6 oclock hold with a bead front sight. You also don't bury the bead in the sight notch.
The winchester 94 and the 30-30 cartridge is a hunting combination, not something to sit in a blind and wait to kill something coming to feed at dusk...
Some wise-acre said in that oher thread:
My "yet-to-kill-a-hog" levergun with a carrying handle:Griff wrote:Ain't any doubt about it, scopes hold many advantages over irons. Some don't even have a negative when it comes to failing light.
(.375 Marlin)
Not all scopes are great in low-light situations, or even tolerable; but in a situation like Joe described most any of 'em have it all over irons when it's too dark to see yer sights.
I will confess, on each ocasion that I've used an iron sighted .30-30 mdl 94 from a stand, there's been a scoped rifle standing in the corner; just in case. I'm just please it hasn't become necessary.
BTW Joe, I've got that 375 available and PLENTY of ammo to thin hogs! Wanna try 'er?
Griff,
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Exactly why I have glass on both of my lever “meat” guns.
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
With all the folks going after hogs with knives, would it have been possible, what with the dogs and all to just get in there and point shoot the hog? I always practice a few contact distance shots with anything I own. Used to go to these 3d archery shoots, and there were a lot of good shooters. Amazing though, how many people would blow the 10 foot shot on the turkey or raccoon, or hit the chronograph at weigh-in from 1 foot.
Also, and I have never shot anything with a solid from a centerfire rifle, but what about the 30-30 with solids. Assuming you could make a surgical shot (very interesting about the sight problems). At least you would get passthrough, and possibly the heart on the way. I wouldn't just shoot for the heart lung area, and depend on expansion and shock for effect.
Just curious never used dogs, or hunted hogs.
Part of my interest is because I want to get a Marlin XLR. I like stainless because I do minor gunsmithing and it doesn't need rebluing. And I do a fair bit of canoeing. I was thinking of 30-30 and hand loads for barnes X. I was also thinking of mounting a scope on it at some times.
Also, and I have never shot anything with a solid from a centerfire rifle, but what about the 30-30 with solids. Assuming you could make a surgical shot (very interesting about the sight problems). At least you would get passthrough, and possibly the heart on the way. I wouldn't just shoot for the heart lung area, and depend on expansion and shock for effect.
Just curious never used dogs, or hunted hogs.
Part of my interest is because I want to get a Marlin XLR. I like stainless because I do minor gunsmithing and it doesn't need rebluing. And I do a fair bit of canoeing. I was thinking of 30-30 and hand loads for barnes X. I was also thinking of mounting a scope on it at some times.
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
We oftimes learn a lot from costly or expensive errors in judgement.
In this case, the equipment was good, it just wasn't the perfect setup for the hunt you were on.
I've never been a fan of bead sights, for the way I shoot they just don't let a hunter pick his spot as precisely as I prefer. I need to be able to see both the sights AND the "sweet spot" on my target.
My eyes aren't getting any "better" as I age, and when I believe there might be a chance that light levels are going to go to dark, I alter my sight use from iron, to red dot, to a scope, and then to night-vision if I know I'm going to be hunting in the dark.
I always carry more than one rifle to hunt for two reasons, the first is to specifically address the chance event that hunting conditions might change, the second is so that I can continue the hunt in the event that my "primary" firearm malfunctions or is somehow damaged.
At least you tracked the beast down and finished the job. Rough luck for your buddy. There aren't too many things more frustrating than going home empty handed, especially when someone has tasked you with cleaning things up. I think that particular frustration is worse than the ineveitable financial calculation regarding how much you spent to bring home zip.
Thanks for sharing your story. As I said, we learn from these things.
In this case, the equipment was good, it just wasn't the perfect setup for the hunt you were on.
I've never been a fan of bead sights, for the way I shoot they just don't let a hunter pick his spot as precisely as I prefer. I need to be able to see both the sights AND the "sweet spot" on my target.
My eyes aren't getting any "better" as I age, and when I believe there might be a chance that light levels are going to go to dark, I alter my sight use from iron, to red dot, to a scope, and then to night-vision if I know I'm going to be hunting in the dark.
I always carry more than one rifle to hunt for two reasons, the first is to specifically address the chance event that hunting conditions might change, the second is so that I can continue the hunt in the event that my "primary" firearm malfunctions or is somehow damaged.
At least you tracked the beast down and finished the job. Rough luck for your buddy. There aren't too many things more frustrating than going home empty handed, especially when someone has tasked you with cleaning things up. I think that particular frustration is worse than the ineveitable financial calculation regarding how much you spent to bring home zip.
Thanks for sharing your story. As I said, we learn from these things.
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
I have a problem with bead sights also.On my 1894c I filed the bead off and flattened the top
into a post type and shrank my shot groups in half.I like the Hi-Viz type sights but wish the
light pipes were finer as my eyes are good.
into a post type and shrank my shot groups in half.I like the Hi-Viz type sights but wish the
light pipes were finer as my eyes are good.
What in the wild world of sports is going on here
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Wow, scopes coming out of the woodwork, I feel like a chorus of "Who is on the Lord's Side?"
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
I'm wondering if the outcome of 86er's hunt could have possibly been different with a front globe-circle insert instead of a bead. This topic is good for me as I'm seriously evaluating a change to tang/globe on my .444.
rimrock
rimrock
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Amen OSOld Savage wrote:Wow, scopes coming out of the woodwork, I feel like a chorus of "Who is on the Lord's Side?"
- 2ndovc
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
I wouldn't have been able to shoot a group like this with out a scope on my .35 R.
I hunted last year at 86er's place with two open sighted antique Winchesters.
This year will be two low power scoped Marlins. I'm sure the end result will be two dead pigs in the coolers.
I do like a scope when deer hunting in PA. In my county there is an antler restriction. Five points or more.
A scope makes that a lot easier to count with my eyes.
I Ohio, anything goes as the deer pop keeps growing.
They have their place.
As for the .30-30, I've never hunted with one. Hope to change that shortly.
jb
I hunted last year at 86er's place with two open sighted antique Winchesters.
This year will be two low power scoped Marlins. I'm sure the end result will be two dead pigs in the coolers.
I do like a scope when deer hunting in PA. In my county there is an antler restriction. Five points or more.
A scope makes that a lot easier to count with my eyes.
I Ohio, anything goes as the deer pop keeps growing.
They have their place.
As for the .30-30, I've never hunted with one. Hope to change that shortly.
jb
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
2ndovc wrote:I wouldn't have been able to shoot a group like this with out a scope on my .35 R.
I hunted last year at 86er's place with two open sighted antique Winchesters.
This year will be two low power scoped Marlins. I'm sure the end result will be two dead pigs in the coolers.
I do like a scope when deer hunting in PA. In my county there is an antler restriction. Five points or more.
A scope makes that a lot easier to count with my eyes.
I Ohio, anything goes as the deer pop keeps growing.
They have their place.
As for the .30-30, I've never hunted with one. Hope to change that shortly.
jb
So very true.
Awesome shooting jb
I’d bump the puppy one click left and call it perfect
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
I have never been able to shoot accurately with a bead, the sight picture is just too changeable with the degree and direction of the light. Any rifle I shoot with open sights gets the bead replaced by a post. Here in Oz a lot of shooting is done for ferals and foxes at night under spotlights, so we are very used to the need to scope our rifles for hunting.
Bob
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
I tend to shoot too far aft!casastahle wrote:2ndovc wrote:I wouldn't have been able to shoot a group like this with out a scope on my .35 R.
I hunted last year at 86er's place with two open sighted antique Winchesters.
This year will be two low power scoped Marlins. I'm sure the end result will be two dead pigs in the coolers.
I do like a scope when deer hunting in PA. In my county there is an antler restriction. Five points or more.
A scope makes that a lot easier to count with my eyes.
I Ohio, anything goes as the deer pop keeps growing.
They have their place.
As for the .30-30, I've never hunted with one. Hope to change that shortly.
jb
So very true.
Awesome shooting jb
I’d bump the puppy one click left and call it perfect
jb
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Joe, thanks for the good account and analysis! Your experience mirrors mine, and I long ago
concluded that if I was dead serious about taking game in low light, a scope was the best tool.
I use iron sighted rifles to hunt, but only when it's a "fun" trip where I don't mind letting game pass if the shot isn't ethical. Kudos to you for passing on the shots you did!
Others mention the benefits of a post front sight, and I've also found that to be helpful.
Sometimes using a narrower post than standard is a benefit, too. I do use a very fine bead
for squirrels & rabbits, but that is at relatively short, woods range.
Another disadvantage of the bead sight is that your point of impact can shift significantly based on the direction from which the light is coming. Phil Sharpe mentions this and points out the advantages of a flat-faced bead, rather than a convex one. I was on the range doing some shooting w/a round, silver bead front and the sun was coming in from about 7 o'clock, over my left shoulder. I could clearly see that the bright point of light on the sights' face was actually on the lower left part of the bead. As the sun changed directions, the point of light on the sights face followed suit. I was having a very hard time getting good sight picture, and took a file and carefully flattened the face of the bead. (If you do this, go slow because the metal can be VERY soft!) Voila! Problem solved! Had a much better, uniform bright spot and accuracy improved significantly.
From shooting varmints in low light/dark, I can share a technique that will make you able to shoot iron sights as clearly as daylight. Hold a flashlight in your left hand under the barrel of the pistol/rifle, so that the sights are back-lit. The resulting sight picture is superb -- very crisp and sharp, even better than usually obtainable in regular daylight! Using this technique, I have shot small critters w/pistols out to 25 yards very easily on my limited night varmint hunts, and in fact shot one at a paced 60+ yards (my longest to date). Practice a bit on where/how to hold the light, and it will become very easy. Most of my shooting was with pistols, but I believe you can adapt this to rifles as well.
The question was asked, "I'm wondering if the outcome of 86er's hunt could have possibly been different with a front globe-circle insert instead of a bead."
Not in my experience! The globe shades the sight and makes it even harder to pick up in the dark. Also, if the circle isn't a good fit with your target size, it can be a problem. I have not tried this with the flashlight technique, but am not tempted to, based on my previous experience w/globe front sight/circle insert in the field. If I were to use a globe front to hunt with, it would have a post insert, not an aperture.
Hope this helps,
John
concluded that if I was dead serious about taking game in low light, a scope was the best tool.
I use iron sighted rifles to hunt, but only when it's a "fun" trip where I don't mind letting game pass if the shot isn't ethical. Kudos to you for passing on the shots you did!
Others mention the benefits of a post front sight, and I've also found that to be helpful.
Sometimes using a narrower post than standard is a benefit, too. I do use a very fine bead
for squirrels & rabbits, but that is at relatively short, woods range.
Another disadvantage of the bead sight is that your point of impact can shift significantly based on the direction from which the light is coming. Phil Sharpe mentions this and points out the advantages of a flat-faced bead, rather than a convex one. I was on the range doing some shooting w/a round, silver bead front and the sun was coming in from about 7 o'clock, over my left shoulder. I could clearly see that the bright point of light on the sights' face was actually on the lower left part of the bead. As the sun changed directions, the point of light on the sights face followed suit. I was having a very hard time getting good sight picture, and took a file and carefully flattened the face of the bead. (If you do this, go slow because the metal can be VERY soft!) Voila! Problem solved! Had a much better, uniform bright spot and accuracy improved significantly.
From shooting varmints in low light/dark, I can share a technique that will make you able to shoot iron sights as clearly as daylight. Hold a flashlight in your left hand under the barrel of the pistol/rifle, so that the sights are back-lit. The resulting sight picture is superb -- very crisp and sharp, even better than usually obtainable in regular daylight! Using this technique, I have shot small critters w/pistols out to 25 yards very easily on my limited night varmint hunts, and in fact shot one at a paced 60+ yards (my longest to date). Practice a bit on where/how to hold the light, and it will become very easy. Most of my shooting was with pistols, but I believe you can adapt this to rifles as well.
The question was asked, "I'm wondering if the outcome of 86er's hunt could have possibly been different with a front globe-circle insert instead of a bead."
Not in my experience! The globe shades the sight and makes it even harder to pick up in the dark. Also, if the circle isn't a good fit with your target size, it can be a problem. I have not tried this with the flashlight technique, but am not tempted to, based on my previous experience w/globe front sight/circle insert in the field. If I were to use a globe front to hunt with, it would have a post insert, not an aperture.
Hope this helps,
John
"Pistols do not win wars, but they save the lives of the men who do. The noble 1911 is a mechanical marvel, whose ruggedness, dependability & ferocious power have comforted four issues of GIs and which, unlike any other instrument you can name, is as much superior to its rivals today as it was in 1917."
-Col. Jeff Cooper, 1968
-Col. Jeff Cooper, 1968
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Thanks for the after action report Joe - it's very much appreciated.
I don't know where bias against scopes comes from, or I guess I do but I just don't get it. For plinking, sure I find iron sights (or eyes-open red dot sights) more fun. Who wouldn't? But if I'm looking for the best I can hope to achieve regarding bullet placement give me a scope every time. And in dusk or dawn situations forget it - my eyes went south long ago for that kind of thing without optics.
Sorry you had difficulties.
Best,
Oly
I don't know where bias against scopes comes from, or I guess I do but I just don't get it. For plinking, sure I find iron sights (or eyes-open red dot sights) more fun. Who wouldn't? But if I'm looking for the best I can hope to achieve regarding bullet placement give me a scope every time. And in dusk or dawn situations forget it - my eyes went south long ago for that kind of thing without optics.
Sorry you had difficulties.
Best,
Oly
- horsesoldier03
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
+1 on Old Savages comments. "WHO IS ON THE LORD'S SIDE!" I almost thought we were gonna change the name of the website.
I won't deny that I have not taken a shot opportunity because the game in question was out of reach with the firearm at hand. I will also add, hogs have poor vision and if it had been me I would have been attemtping to stalk within my 100 yrd imposed range for a lever with iron sights.
All that being said, I broke down this year (After DR told me I needed reading glasses) and put a 2-7x32 scope on my M336. I have a Glenfield 30 that has a fine sight post which gives good results with iron sights. +1 on comments about the 6 o'clock hold.
Its hell getting old. I aint as good as I once was!
I won't deny that I have not taken a shot opportunity because the game in question was out of reach with the firearm at hand. I will also add, hogs have poor vision and if it had been me I would have been attemtping to stalk within my 100 yrd imposed range for a lever with iron sights.
All that being said, I broke down this year (After DR told me I needed reading glasses) and put a 2-7x32 scope on my M336. I have a Glenfield 30 that has a fine sight post which gives good results with iron sights. +1 on comments about the 6 o'clock hold.
Its hell getting old. I aint as good as I once was!
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Good morning
The above is the reason I scraped all my cal. .30´s lever rifles and went with 38´s. My last 30-30 got rebarreled to 375 Win. which I shoot as a 38-55. It is just hard to beat a 255 grainer chugging along at 1550 fps. Except for maybe a 280 grainer from a 45 Colt.
Sights.. Well that is why it is paramount to get into the type of conditions you will hunt and find out what will work.
I used a 336 32 Win Special with those tip off mounts back in the 60´s to pop fox.. that rig really work well out to 150 yards and up close it was a breeze to swing the scope off the side.
The above is the reason I scraped all my cal. .30´s lever rifles and went with 38´s. My last 30-30 got rebarreled to 375 Win. which I shoot as a 38-55. It is just hard to beat a 255 grainer chugging along at 1550 fps. Except for maybe a 280 grainer from a 45 Colt.
Sights.. Well that is why it is paramount to get into the type of conditions you will hunt and find out what will work.
I used a 336 32 Win Special with those tip off mounts back in the 60´s to pop fox.. that rig really work well out to 150 yards and up close it was a breeze to swing the scope off the side.
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Tanker 71-74 NRA Life Ready to Defend the Constitution from enemies within and without.
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
The only good thing about the round bead front sight is it's great for fast snap action sights ( sorta like the 19th centuries answer to the Red DOT sights of today) but suck for precision shooting.
Now I know Marbles stopped making their "Sourdough", sight so who makes a similar product these days?
Rifleman 336
Now I know Marbles stopped making their "Sourdough", sight so who makes a similar product these days?
Rifleman 336
Never bite off more than you can chew.
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Pull the bead out of a bead front and you've got a sourdough....
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
I really like XS Sights front sight. I have put one on almost all of my rifles. It is a large black post with a fine white stripe down the center. They may make one with a tritium insert, but I do not know. As far as scopes go, I have a 4x40 Nikon that can not be beat with little light.
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
That's a "No Go" for the front sight on my Marlin 336 is rounded to to the profile of the round bead, so I would have a rounded black sight. Nothing like going in circles is there?Don McDowell wrote:Pull the bead out of a bead front and you've got a sourdough....
As for DR. Walkers suggestion of the XS Front sight it's waaay too wide for my rear sight and or my tastes.
Any other thoughts like a customizer or I wonder....................? How does one "Pull" the bead on a factory front sight? How's it secured in place. Maybe I could put a piece of square stock in it to give square front profile. Just a thought.
Rifleman 336
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- vancelw
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
I'm pretty sure that's what I'm going to end up putting on my 1886 rifle and Model 71-a globe front sight and use a crosshair insert. That way I can see the whole target, not just the top half with the vitals obscured by the bead.rimrock wrote:I'm wondering if the outcome of 86er's hunt could have possibly been different with a front globe-circle insert instead of a bead. This topic is good for me as I'm seriously evaluating a change to tang/globe on my .444.
rimrock
My model 92s will be okay with the bead since I usually shoot at much closer ranges with them.
I'm a firm believer in scopes:I just don't want one on my leverguns.
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
,I've found that XS front sight
Makes all the difference in the world to me, up to about 150 yards the XS Ghost Ring and front sight is better for me than having one of those fancy optical enhancers. Beyond that, the optical enhancer starts getting better.I really like XS Sights front sight
The ugliest gun I have (after the Lee-Enfields of course), is my old Glenfield Model 30a with a True-Glow red dot on it, but you can take that out to a couple of hundred yards in a New York second and be accurate with it..
It is my daughter's gun now.
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
The one shot i've made on game was in the dark with a flashlight using an XS front sight. It's not a 300m accuracy piece, it's made for medium/short range work and can do good out to about 100 i guess.
They do make a smaller aperature rear.
They do make a smaller aperature rear.
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
I've missed my share this year with my open sighted 35. I'm good out to about 150, and on a good day can keep it on the killzone of a deer sized target at 200...but not always. I just can't seem to get comfortable out past that 150yard mark with open sights.
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Most "bead" front sights are rounded to the shape of the bead But just the difference of not having the bead in is often quite enough to make the sight a bit more user friendly. If the rounded steel of the bead front is still a problem I would assume anyone with the tools and coordination to pull the bead would also be able to use a couple of soft strokes of a file and loose the "rounded to the bead profile"Rifleman336 wrote:That's a "No Go" for the front sight on my Marlin 336 is rounded to to the profile of the round bead, so I would have a rounded black sight. Nothing like going in circles is there?Don McDowell wrote:Pull the bead out of a bead front and you've got a sourdough....
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
I use the stock, flat-top Winchester rear sight and the finest white bead I can get. The sight picture I use is the same as a with a pistol; all level across the top and centered in the notch. I zero so that the bullet drops just behind or on the top center edge of that bead at 200 yards.
You have to see your target to hit it and there's no question that a scope helps you see your target better. I'll pass some shots with irons, that a scope would let me make.
You have to see your target to hit it and there's no question that a scope helps you see your target better. I'll pass some shots with irons, that a scope would let me make.
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
I am not anti-scope in any way shape or form. I have them on all my bolt guns. But on a lever action, they just seem wrong to me, like adding a scope to an original flintlock.
There are lots of whiz bang cartridge bolt guns, with scopes the size of sewer pipes, to buy and choose from. That and all the black rifles seem to be the only guns for sale in most places.
I guess I don't understand why someone would choose a light, quick handling lever action and then add the weight and awkwardness of a scope, when bolts and scopes are perfect together.
There are lots of whiz bang cartridge bolt guns, with scopes the size of sewer pipes, to buy and choose from. That and all the black rifles seem to be the only guns for sale in most places.
I guess I don't understand why someone would choose a light, quick handling lever action and then add the weight and awkwardness of a scope, when bolts and scopes are perfect together.
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
All the better to see them with.
I don't understand why anyone cares what anyone else does with THEIR rifle.
I don't understand why anyone cares what anyone else does with THEIR rifle.
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Who did the work? are you shooting both .38-55 and .375 out of it?missionary5155 wrote:Good morning
The above is the reason I scraped all my cal. .30´s lever rifles and went with 38´s. My last 30-30 got rebarreled to 375 Win. which I shoot as a 38-55. It is just hard to beat a 255 grainer chugging along at 1550 fps. Except for maybe a 280 grainer from a 45 Colt.
Sights.. Well that is why it is paramount to get into the type of conditions you will hunt and find out what will work.
I used a 336 32 Win Special with those tip off mounts back in the 60´s to pop fox.. that rig really work well out to 150 yards and up close it was a breeze to swing the scope off the side.
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Bolt actions didn't start with scopes either........and some muzzle loaders DID (Whitworth).
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Old Savage wrote:All the better to see them with.
I don't understand why anyone cares what anyone else does with THEIR rifle.
Well said Fred. On both points.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Because if we don't speak up, things like this happen...Old Savage wrote:All the better to see them with.
I don't understand why anyone cares what anyone else does with THEIR rifle.
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.
History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Yeah I know - a brown sling on a black rifle - what was he thinking.
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Whoa!!!
That sling just doesn't work on that rifle. Wonder if he's color blind?
That sling just doesn't work on that rifle. Wonder if he's color blind?
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
I have the XS ghost ring set up on my hog gun, a 45/70 Marlin. I like it so much I put an XS front sight on my 1895 Win 30-40. That one has an old Redfield peep on the rear. Works well. I always thought scopes on lever guns were like tits on a bull.
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Most of the discussion has been about irons or scopes. But the suggestion that the 30/30 wasnt enough because it didnt poke a hole through the other side is significant also. Hogs are tough and often dont leave great blood trails like a deer would. Would a 444 have exited? How about a 200 grain from a 375 win? We dont know. The issue was a poorly hit animal. If you hit that hog with a 45/70 poorly you may have ended up with the same result. Then we would be asking, "Is a 45/70 up to the task of hunting hogs?"
As to the iron sights. It amazes me how I seem to be able to shoot Marlin open sights but my Winchester's flip up open sight is nearly impossible for me.
Like many of you, when everything is on the line, as much as I want to use my open sights I usually end up in the woods with a scope. It is just a 2.5x simmods shotgun scope that I have adjusted the parallex on. But I know i can shoot it sub moa and that confindence allows me to never 2nd guess in a split second. Oh, it rides on an old 336 in 30/30.
As to the iron sights. It amazes me how I seem to be able to shoot Marlin open sights but my Winchester's flip up open sight is nearly impossible for me.
Like many of you, when everything is on the line, as much as I want to use my open sights I usually end up in the woods with a scope. It is just a 2.5x simmods shotgun scope that I have adjusted the parallex on. But I know i can shoot it sub moa and that confindence allows me to never 2nd guess in a split second. Oh, it rides on an old 336 in 30/30.
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Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Viewing a single plane is much easier and makes it easier to be more precise. I guess people also see differently - the flip up sight on my Win BB is very good for me in the bright light I have used it in. Interesting that many people seem to assume that others see the way they do.
Re: Woes of the hunt - Win 94 30-30 was wrong equipment
Bingo Kapncrunch Gut shot is gut shot and the size of the bullet doesn't usually make any difference.
Better use of the sights or different sight may have made the difference in putting the bullet where it needed to go tho...
Better use of the sights or different sight may have made the difference in putting the bullet where it needed to go tho...