Lever Gun Recoil

[DLMcDorman]

Any one know actual measured recoil of win 94 timber carbines with muzzle porting in 444 and 450 calibers?

[Hobie]

By far most, if not all, figures given are computed from the weight of the gun, charge and velocity of the charge.

For those lurking who might be wondering, recoil is really often a subjective thing as every gun stock fits every shooter a bit differently, every shooter has different physical and psychological limitations, etc.

[Chas.]

That's such a general question, nobody will have an accurate number, i.e. what bullet, what powder charge, what primer, ad infinitum. To calculate recoil for yourself, here's a recoil calculator - http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

[DLMcDorman]

First, sorry for being so slow with my replies. I don't know where the first one went so I am trying again.
Thanks for the link to the recoil calculator. That works pretty neat. Being an engineer I can calculate the impulse/recoil from a certain load. Recoil speed, fps will be dependant on the pressure curve of that particular powder and the barrel length of the gun and will be a little harder to calculate accurately.
I was wondering if anyone had actually measured the recoil reduction effect of porting for those particular gun/calibers. Win and Marlin have made the guns (at least 444) in ported/unported models with almost the same weight so the measurement would be valid.
Being an engineer I get a little OC about actual numbers.

[Lawyer Daggit]

What do you call recoil?

Just the back push of the gun, or the whole sha-BANG, including noise and blast.

I remember fiddling at the range once with 2 Brownings- one with BOSS and one without.

I soon realised I was more susceptible to blast and noise than kick.

It can pay you to analyse what elements of the gun firing effect you rather than just concentrating on 'recoil' alone.

[Malamute]

I worked up some loads for a 300 win mag with a Boss brake on it. It was horrible!!!!!! The blast was far worse than the recoil could have ever been. I enjoyed shooting my old 338 much more than the 300, mainly because of the muzzle blast being directed backwards with the Boss.

The timber carbines with porting may end up with the same issue, or, you may not be as susepctible to muzzle blast as I am. I wouldn't willingly buy a ported gun if I had a choice. The felt recoil may be less with the ports, but the tradeoff may not be worthwhile. Worth considering if you were thinking of buying one.

[MrMurphy]

Also, benched, prone, standing, sitting.....all affect how it feels to you.

[tman]

Shooting an unported .444 winchester Bigbore 94 from the bench gets my attention. About 10 rounds is enough . Fortunately, in the field shooting game, you don't notice the recoil

[COSteve]

What do you call recoil?

I soon realized I was more susceptible to blast and noise than kick.

Actually, most new shooters I've worked with comment on the noise and blast more than the push. "It's really loud!" "I could feel the blast." Are common statements from new shooters and from my experience it's the noise and blast that contributes the most to flinching.

I did my own little test a number of years back with a few Scouts in our local troop to see if my theory was correct. They were shooting one of our club's M1As and it was their first experience with anything larger than a 22lr. First we gave all of the new shooters foam plugs and heavy muffs before and had them all wear them before anyone fired and had told them to keep them on during everyone's first round of shooting. In addition we ensured that they all stood well back from the firing line until it was their turn.

At the line, we had them shoot with the muzzle of the rifle sticking through a slit in a wood wall to disperse the blast. Outfitted this way, the Scouts all commented that the recoil wasn't as bad as they'd imagined and they wanted to shoot it again.

Next, we had them try a few more shots with just the foam plugs and standing out in the open. Most of them flinched on the second and succeeding shots. At the end of the shooting they all commented that the recoil their second cycle was much more pronounced and one of them asked what new round I'd given them to use because the recoil was significantly harsher. Same gun, same ammo, same recoil and blast. Only difference was their perception of the noise and blast.

[Old Savage]

This is talking about two different things. There is no way around recoil but the noise and blast can be removed with ear protection. It seems there should be some device that measures actual recoil I think PAST had something. I saw the actual recoil listed for a 30-06 as 210 lbs. I took that to mean if you put the rifle against a scale and fired it you would get a peak of 210 lbs. I have seen all the comparison formulas that come up with ft lbs but that isn't the figure I think you are hit with in the same way we understand the force of recoil. You might put it this way, if you fired a rifle downward with the butt under something - how much could it lift.

Steve, you put a 458 through that slit in the wall and I guarantee there will be some complaining.

So how can the actual force be measured?

[C. Cash]

That Mod. 94 Win. stock profile will NAIL you with the heavy hitters, IF your laying your body down on the shooting bench that is. Even my 356 Win. will give you a case of flinch off the bench in this manner, but coming off there will ease things up a great deal. Just sitting up at the bench, with your back straight, rested on something large and stable, will make shooting these heavy kicking 94's much more enjoyable. Shooting undercover can really start to play on your mind as well as the blast is so much increased. Wish I could give you better numbers and some experience with the 450 Marlin in that little package. I'm betting either of those guns would become unfun after 20 or so rounds, but loaded down with cast bullets and off the bench, probably wouldn't be too bad for extended shooting, with a pad and sitting up straight.

[Mescalero]

For 5 years I did all the test firing at W.R. Weaver Co.
It was done in a 100 yard concrete tunnel underneath the factory.
98% of it was done with .458 Winchester Magnum, from a bench.
I wore plugs and muffs and a shooting jacket.
.458 from the bench is brutal, especially shooting groups.
But it was the muzzle blast that was most disturbing.
I agree with C. Cash, a model 94 thumps me harder than any .458 I ever shot.

[Old Savage]

Mescy,

Come to your senses.

[Mescalero]

OS,
How do you do it?
Seriously, the stock profile of a model 94 " digs " into me; where a .458 is more evenly distributed.

[COSteve]

This is talking about two different things. There is no way around recoil but the noise and blast can be removed with ear protection. It seems there should be some device that measures actual recoil I think PAST had something. I saw the actual recoil listed for a 30-06 as 210 lbs. I took that to mean if you put the rifle against a scale and fired it you would get a peak of 210 lbs. I have seen all the comparison formulas that come up with ft lbs but that isn't the figure I think you are hit with in the same way we understand the force of recoil. You might put it this way, if you fired a rifle downward with the butt under something - how much could it lift.

Steve, you put a 458 through that slit in the wall and I guarantee there will be some complaining.

So how can the actual force be measured?

I didn't say that they didn't feel recoil, I said that their perception of it was significantly more when both the sound and blast weren't attenuated. As to your 210lbs recoil for a 30-06; that number isn't even the same order of magnitude as reality. 210 lbs of force would knock all but the hugest people down every shot and that doesn't happen. To see recoil energy and velocity displayed for many different calibers, bullet weights, and rifle weights try Chuck Hawks Rifle Recoil Table. He's also got one for Pistols Too. To calculate your own, try THIS ONE.

BTW, an 8lb 30-06 rifle shooting 180grn bullets at 2700fps generates 20.3lb of free recoil energy at a velocity of 12.8fps.

[pwl44m]

DL, first welcome to the forum,
second, do U have Your answer yet ?
Most new shooters don't know what recoil is ,all They want to know is "does it Kick"
Have U fired that 444 yet ? does it kick or is it just Loud ?

[Old Savage]

Steve, I am well aware of the calculations and the idea say 18 lbs for a 30-06. But, I guarantee you if you put a 30-06 against a scale and fire it the number will go far beyond 18 lbs and I know we are talking ft lbs but the 210 isn't.

Blast may be a sensory factor but it isn't recoil and this fellow is asking about recoil. And he is asking about measured recoil not computed recoil so ---- how would we measure recoil?

[DLMcDorman]

Thanks for all the comments. I just got back home so I apologize for responding so late. The Chuck Hawks info is kinda like I am talking about but I was hoping someone might have actually tested some type of muzzle brake for real world results.

I have shot 444's and 300mags and both get your attention. The advice about shooting from the bench is spot on. I have seen a lot of scope brands from people hunkering down on big magnums. Back to the question, I had some vertabrae removed from my neck and the bones fused. This makes recoil a little more of an issue for me. I can stand the blast issue but any kind of a hard recoiling gun gives me a severe headache and my doctor even more of one when I tell him, ha.ha.

So, I thought I would ask before I bought a ported gun to hear from people who might have compared them.

[damienph]

Mescy,

Come to your senses.

For a second there, I thought that I had accidentally clicked on the "computer screen background" thread.

[mod71alaska]

I had my .338 WM that I hunted for years with in Alaska Mag-na-ported and can't say enough about the form and function of those OS women. Whoa, I must have gotten a little confused there! Well, ya gotta love 'em...Mag-na-porting and beach beauties!

http://www.magnaport.com/company.html