Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
J Miller
Member Emeritus
Posts: 14880
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Not in IL no more ... :)

Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by J Miller »

Many of us have had under the carrier jams with our Winchester 94s. This seems to be much more prevalent with the later Post-64 versions and the .357 Mag versions made towards the end of Winchesters production.
Here is a couple of cut away drawings showing what the insides of a Winchester 94 looks like in both open and closed positions.
Win 94 closed action cutaway illistrated.JPG
In figure A you see the action closed. In the circle is the cartridge stop. When the action is closed the cartridge stop lays flat, out of the way in the notch machined for it. The cartridges in the magazine slide right over the top of it onto the carrier.
Mdl 1894 cartridge lifter 1914.jpg
The forward end of most of the Win 94 cartridge carriers are notched to sit low in the receiver around the cartridge stop.
This notch varies from deep as in the pre-64 carrier shown in the picture above, to shallow in some of the post-64 carriers.
The .357 carriers found in the later USRAC guns are much shorter than the other carriers and have no notch.
Win 94 open action cutaway illistrated.JPG
In Figure: B you see the action open with the cartridge stop in the up position blocking the next cartridge in line. As you can see by this pic, it's not the height of the stop but its length that's critical.

Study the pic and you can easily see what happens to cause an under the carrier jam. When the cartridge stop breaks off, wears down or tolerances stack up wrong, the cartridge will slip over it and end up between the open link and raised carrier. At this point clearing the jam usually requires at least partial disassembly of the rifle.

The problem can be cured in a number of ways:
A: Replace the link
B: Cold swauge the cartridge stop to a longer length and then reshape it with a file. This only works if the problem is minor wear or a tolerance problem.
C: Weld up the stop and reshape it.
D: See Nate Kiowa Jones post down below.

I hope this helps explain the "Under The Carrier Jam" Winchester 94s are occasionally beset with.

Joe
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by J Miller on Thu May 20, 2010 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***
User avatar
Hobie
Moderator
Posts: 13902
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:54 pm
Location: Staunton, VA, USA
Contact:

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by Hobie »

I know we've discussed this several times since 2003 but this is the best explanation I've seen. I wish I'd known this in 1973 with my old M94 .44 Mag...
Sincerely,

Hobie

"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
User avatar
JReed
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 5509
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:17 am
Location: SoCal

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by JReed »

Thanks Joe. Last summer you and I diagnosed my .45 trapper with this problem. Still need to fix it. :oops:
Jeremy
GySgt USMC Ret

To err is human, To forgive is devine, Neither of which is Marine Corps policy
Semper Fidelis
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by Griff »

Good explanation, Joe. Good pics to show the symptom, cause and cure!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
pshort
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:43 am
Location: Central Minnesota

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by pshort »

Thanks Joe......

Paul
"Pain plants the flag of reality in the
fortress of a rebel soul"
Nate Kiowa Jones
Site Sponsor
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:05 pm
Location: Lampasas, Texas
Contact:

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by Nate Kiowa Jones »

Joe,
There is one other fix I've had some success using with the 357's. Part of the problem with the late 94's is Win tried to make the parts, one-size-fits-all. In other words they left things kind of loose to eliminate as much hand fitting as possible. There where the link is pinned into the receiver is a good example. When someone sent a 357 that was feeding under the carrier I would order a new link and the install it using a custom made oversize link pin. Then drill both the receiver and the link for a tight pin fit. By removing the slack there at the pin this made the cart stop come back to the same place each time.
Steve Young aka Nate Kiowa Jones Sass# 6765

Steve's Guns aka "Rossi 92 Specialists"
205 Antler lane
Lampasas, Texas 76550


http://www.stevesgunz.com

Email; steve@stevesgunz.com

Tel: 512-564-1015

Image
User avatar
J Miller
Member Emeritus
Posts: 14880
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Not in IL no more ... :)

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by J Miller »

Steve,

Now that you mention it I do remember you saying that. That's why I mentioned tolerances stacking wrong as one of the causes.
One of the few critical fits of the 94 design and they had to go loosen it up. Bad juju in my opinion.

Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***
C. Cash
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 5384
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:02 pm

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by C. Cash »

Great post Joe...many thanks for the pics and info. Looks like a sticky to me.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
20cows
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2278
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:55 pm
Location: East West Texas

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by 20cows »

BRAVO ,Joe!

2nd the sticky!
User avatar
gamekeeper
Spambot Zapper
Posts: 17321
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:32 pm
Location: Over the pond unfortunately.

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by gamekeeper »

Thanks Joe, you never know when you might need "the fix"
If more men loved and cherished their wives as much as I love bacon the world would be a much better place.
retmech
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 9:31 pm

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by retmech »

My 94 AE started passing shells under the carrier so I ordered a new link because the top edge of the cartridge stop was worn and rounded. The new link lasted about 100 rds and it started screwing up. The part is a soft sintered metal part and it started rounding. I had a friend weld the stop and I reshaped it. Now over a thousand rounds later no problem, with the link. I'm on my third ejector now so it looks like I have to make one of those too! Here is a picture of my link. I made it a little wider than original and it's holding up great, looks just like when I first put it in with no wear on it.
[img]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums ... .jpg[/img]
User avatar
Poohgyrr
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 565
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:05 pm
Location: South Carolina

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by Poohgyrr »

Thanks, I do lots better when I can see it; and this thread does that.

I printed this out, but this problem seems to be a real pain and ticked me off to no end with my .357 Trapper - or maybe I'm just being anal... Is there someway we can make this a sticky, or at least part of a sticky (we already have a few)??
John
Family, blue steel & wood, hot biscuits, and fresh coffee.
Luke 22:36 Romans 12:17-21 Ephesians 4:26-32
"Life brings sorrow and joy alike. It is what a man does with them - not what they do to him - that is the true test of his mettle." T. Roosevelt
User avatar
J Miller
Member Emeritus
Posts: 14880
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Not in IL no more ... :)

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by J Miller »

Poohgyrr wrote:Thanks, I do lots better when I can see it; and this thread does that.

I printed this out, but this problem seems to be a real pain and ticked me off to no end with my .357 Trapper - or maybe I'm just being anal... Is there someway we can make this a sticky, or at least part of a sticky (we already have a few)??
Poohgyrr,
It is a sticky. Has been for a while now.
The .357 Win 94s in .357 are either saints or demons. Some of them work perfectly and others do not. Yours might take a combination of fixes. Cartridge stop, as well as the over sized screw or pin to tighten up the link to receiver fit.

Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***
Pipeliner
Levergunner
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:19 pm
Location: Meeker, Colorado

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by Pipeliner »

Howdy from a returning member. I sometimes stop in but haven't posted in a long time. I am looking for a loading gate for my Canadian Centennial (1967) rifle, or a good picture of the back side of same. I recently aquired this rifle and am having some problems. My Big Bore has a slight notch that the cartridge rim catches on but the Canadian doesn't, and the durn thing sometimes lets the last one loaded slip past and rattle around on the carrier. Any help is greatly appreciated.
What does not kill me, makes me stronger.
donw
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 605
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:37 am
Location: high desert of southern caliphornia

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by donw »

i had that problem with my 94 and sent it back to the factory. they corrected and sent it back to me without explanation.
if you think you're influencial, try telling someone else's dog what to do---will rogers
JohndeFresno
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:52 pm

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by JohndeFresno »

EXCELLENT!
OD*
Member Emeritus
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:57 am
Location: Vatican City

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by OD* »

Nicely done, Joe. Image
Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow.
End the cycle of hatred, don't give them a tomorrow.
wiskeyVI
Levergunner
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:05 am

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by wiskeyVI »

Hmmmm, This sounds like the current problem I'm having with my Rossi 92.
bobinwa
Levergunner
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:37 pm

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by bobinwa »

donw wrote:i had that problem with my 94 and sent it back to the factory. they corrected and sent it back to me without explanation.
Do you know how long the warranty is? I bought the one I'm having trouble with in 2006 and I wonder if Winchester would fix this?

-bob
donw
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 605
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:37 am
Location: high desert of southern caliphornia

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by donw »

no---i don't know how long the warranty is---sorry.

a call to the Winchester factory might net you some desirable results though.
if you think you're influencial, try telling someone else's dog what to do---will rogers
randal
Levergunner
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:37 am

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by randal »

Hey gang, I'm newly registered but not new to the site...I've visited often as a guest in order to help me diagnose problems with my 1967 Model 94 30-30.

I'm having lever link/cartridge stop issues (again) and I was wondering just how much material is supposed to be on the cartridge stop...does anyone know if there are dimensions somewhere that I can refer to?

Also, what's the best material to use to build up the stop? I've read silver solder...and if I'm not mistaken, the smith that previously repaired this for me used silver solder and here I am again...should I try something harder?

I'm sorry if this has been answered over and over, I used the search function repeatedly and didn't see anything...

Thanks,
Randal
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: Win 94 Under the carrier jams - pictorial

Post by Griff »

randal wrote:Hey gang, I'm newly registered but not new to the site...I've visited often as a guest in order to help me diagnose problems with my 1967 Model 94 30-30.

I'm having lever link/cartridge stop issues (again) and I was wondering just how much material is supposed to be on the cartridge stop...does anyone know if there are dimensions somewhere that I can refer to?

Also, what's the best material to use to build up the stop? I've read silver solder...and if I'm not mistaken, the smith that previously repaired this for me used silver solder and here I am again...should I try something harder?

I'm sorry if this has been answered over and over, I used the search function repeatedly and didn't see anything...

Thanks,
Randal
Hard-facing. Silver-solder is too soft to stand up to the repeated hammering the brass rim of the cartridge will subject the stop to. I don't know of any dimensional data for the stop... it's just a weld up till it's too big, then file it down til it works... Sorry.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Post Reply