Concealed carry violates company policy

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:14 am

I work for a major pharmaceutical company that shall remain nameless, but rhymes with "shirk."

It is against company policy to carry a firearm in the company vehicle.

I like my job, and the fact that I can pay my mortgage.

While I ride for the brand, I follow the rules.

But I don't like it.

P

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:24 am

Check your state laws. Part of the KS concealed carry law states that it is flat out against the law for a company to ban CCH holders from keeping a gun in their cars on ANY company or public access property. One of the local aircraft companies still keeps their no firearms signs up, but security acknowledges that they can't do anything about it if you have a CCH, and keep the gun in your car on company property. They didn't like it, but the KS legislature ensured that CCH holders were not discriminated against. One of the few things that I applaud KS for.

Ed

cavebear803 · Post by **cavebear803** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:26 am

Yeah the company I work for is a multi million dollar corporation and keep cash in large amounts. We are not allowed to carry even though we have been trained and have carry permits. To make matters worse they post signs stating that guns are forbidden so everyone knows we are unarmed. We also stay open 24/7 365 on a major interstate route. Yes I like being able to pay my bills and have insurance; however I, and quite a few I work with, like our family more. Its alot easier to find another job even in tough times than it is for my family to live on the lousy 30000 dollars insurance we leave them if we get killed. Hollis

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:25 am

pharmseller wrote:I work for a major pharmaceutical company that shall remain nameless, but rhymes with "shirk."

It is against company policy to carry a firearm in the company vehicle.

I like my job, and the fact that I can pay my mortgage.

While I ride for the brand, I follow the rules.

But I don't like it.

P

As much as I don't care for it, this is the catch. They own the vehicle, pay the insurance on it, and they can get away with it. Be like a UPS or Fed-X driver.

Rob

KSFlatheadhunter · Post by **KSFlatheadhunter** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:58 am

Kansas Ed wrote:Check your state laws. Part of the KS concealed carry law states that it is flat out against the law for a company to ban CCH holders from keeping a gun in their cars on ANY company or public access property. One of the local aircraft companies still keeps their no firearms signs up, but security acknowledges that they can't do anything about it if you have a CCH, and keep the gun in your car on company property. They didn't like it, but the KS legislature ensured that CCH holders were not discriminated against. One of the few things that I applaud KS for.

Ed

Hi Ed,

I agree! When I met my wife, I was living in South Dakota and she was living in Wichita. I told her I would never move back to KS since there was no Concealed Carry and KS was not Class 3 friendly. I ate my words, moved here, we got married and with the help of many people we got both sets of laws changed. I found MANY in the House and Senate to be very open to improving the gun related laws. The House and Senate Vote on our Class 3 bill was 104-09 and 25-8 (or something close to that) in favor of the bill. I forget the exact percentages but they were Eighty-some to Ninety-some percent in favor of the change. My neighbor, Phil Journey, had been working on the CCH bill since before I had moved up to South Dakota. I believe took over 12 years to get that passed and then the Class 3 bill took less than 6 months.

I have worked for a Textron division for the last 5 plus years and I fondly remember the jobs I had where we brought guns to work and shot them during lunch out behind the shop.

Darin

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:42 am

Many of the drug reps I know (I'm a family physician) carry concealed, particularly the females who have large territories or ones including bad big-city neighborhoods. They just figure it's a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of thing.

When I was a pharmacist (silly me got that degree, then borrowed/spent $200k or so and seven more years out of the job market, to take a job earning 1/3 the hourly pay, vs. if I'd stayed a retail pharmacist...

), many of the 'chain' stores I worked for had "no guns" policies, but it was a sort of 'wink-wink' look-the-other-way situation, unless of course they had a reason to want to get rid of you anyway and just needed an excuse.

As a physician I worked for a few years for a sort of 'HMO' style group a couple dozen of us formed (grew to over 200 MD's), and it, too had such a policy. As a co-founder, I challenged the policy, and they changed it so physicians were exempted. Then, just on principle, I pushed back, saying that our staff were just as important to their families as we were, and deserved not to have to go out into dark parking lots unarmed. The company dissolved due to bureaucratic inertia before that got resolved.

A nearby university hospital got such push-back from their nursing staff on the CCW thing (Indiana has maybe 1 per every 14 adults with CCW), that they installed lockers the nurses could specifically use for firearms they refused to 'leave home' or in their vehicles, yet the hospital didn't want them falling out of IWB holsters tucked under scrubs (I bumped into a nurse doing CPR on an ICU patient once, and 'discovered' she had a shoulder holster under her scrub-top

).

I'd carry. Screw the 'company'.

If in doubt about any 'metal detector' stuff, just stick a full-size vice-grip in your pants pocket ("had to fix my car today"), and tote it where you want to 'screen' for any metal detectors. If it isn't picked up, I doubt a gun would be (unless you carry a Desert Eagle...

).

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:56 am

I almost always have a gun in the truck/car at work.

I don't know exactly what the policy is where I work, and
I've spent some time (discreetly) trying to find out. 'Course,
I don't really care, either.

If I have to come n at night,
I always carry right to my desk. There's a hotel next door that's
widely know for drug activity, so I take no chances with that
nonsense.

The only place I'm really careful is the Federal Building downtown
in Augusta. The Post Office is also in that building. The parking lot
is out back, and there's one drive in/out with a guard shack. There
are always rent-a-cops around, too. I have seen them stop people
and ask to search them. I have no idea if that's legal or not, so
I don't park in their lot on Post Office business. I'm not even taking a chance
on a Federal gun rap, justified or not. I park on the street and walk back.
If a guard wants to search me, they're gonna have to chase me down the
road. They'll be out of their jurisdiction at that point, and it's not
illegal to have a gun in Augusta, Maine.

It's a hassle, though - especially if it's pouring rain!

-Stretch

Marlin32 · Post by **Marlin32** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:02 am

Just have to ask yourself if your life is worth the risk of losing your job. If you get caught carrying. The company doesn't give one rat's behind about you, they are just covering their own. IF you are carrying properly, no one will ever know until the day you need to use it, in which case if you have to use your gun to protect your life, and they still fire you, well, you knew what kind of people you were working for. I would take the job loss of life loss. Otherwise, how do they know you are carrying??

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:40 am

That is a bad situation to be in. I know more than one person in your situation and they carry small automatics in their pocket with a pocket holster. Guns like Ruger LCPs. They wear dress pants or khakis at work. If they ever had to use a gun at work they would be fired but would be alive. It really comes down to don't ask, don't tell and having a very concealable gun. A little gun doesn't provide much of an offensive capability but at least it gives you a tool to try to get yourself out of a situation.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:07 am

modern society praises victims and defames heroes.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:41 am

Think that is bad? Companies are now doing this!
How bout even entering "any" company property(including the parking lot where you park your car during work)with "any" type Gun/Bow/Arrows/Long Bladed Knife etc. "locked" in your car

Can be/probably will be Immediate Termination ?
But when your car is smashed in their parking lot, by one of their yahoo employees, and left that way,(thats only your problem)?

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:34 am

IMHO it is a matter of personal values and conscience. With regard the law, If ya have enough that think like you, get organized and change the state laws. If not, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 is my thought.

If the JOB is what's most important to ya, write a letter to be read upon the event of your demise, explaining that to your orphaned kids.

One FEDERAL rule that needs fixing IMHO is the one prohibiting carry by long haul truckers. A local man was killed when he parked in a bankrupt truckstop in GA, (not enough spaces, so truckers still use the lot), robbed by punks of $18, and shot. He never had a chance because the law said he couldn't be armed....

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:09 pm

adirondakjack wrote:One FEDERAL rule that needs fixing IMHO is the one prohibiting carry by long haul truckers. A local man was killed when he parked in a bankrupt truckstop in GA, (not enough spaces, so truckers still use the lot), robbed by punks of $18, and shot. He never had a chance because the law said he couldn't be armed....

When I had a summer job dispatching for a nationwide trucking company, I had the northwest five states - often, I'd offer a guy in Portland, Oregon, a full load all the way to New Jersey, and they'd turn down the load, in favor of a half-load to Kansas City, three days wait, and a 3/4 load to Virginia. The REASON was that at that time, our drivers basically refused to go to New Jersey, New York City, and Chicago, due to the insane and strictly-enforced gun laws there.

It really irritates me that LEO's got "national concealed carry" though, and left the ordinary citizens in the dust. One of the few 'motivations' to get the laws changed was the gun-toting LEO's who wanted to go on a family vacation without being disarmed and vulnerable. Kind of a shame the rest of us don't have that luxury.

stretch wrote:The only place I'm really careful is the Federal Building downtown
in Augusta.

adirondakjack wrote:IMHO it is a matter of personal values and conscience. With regard the law, If ya have enough that think like you, get organized and change the state laws. If not, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 is my thought.

A few places have had lawsuits forcing any GOVERNMENT building to protect the rights of the poor who may have to walk or take public transportation to the building, the inner-city residents who are often crime victims, and so on, by having GUN LOCKERS at at least one entrance, available to the public. They should, if they're going to prohibit firearms in the building, and if the 'guard' cops an attitude because you want to check in a gun he thinks is too macho for a mere civilian to have, it can be pretty humorous. The fatman-of-unknown-paternity they had there as a 'guard' had a real snotty attitude, and whenever a mere citizen would approach the metal-detector area with a gun to check in, he'd put his hand ON his forward-raked holster as if he were going to whip out his little .380 Beretta if they made just one wrong move. He seemed to know nothing about the guns he was supposed to 'inspect' and 'guard' - he'd fumble sometimes dangerously, trying to 'check' their guns to make sure they were unloaded, and one time some lawyer going through the 'gate' angered him by asking why he just had a .380 - and he replied that it was all he was allowed to carry, but that it was really a very powerful round, as he used "+P" ammunition in it, which made it "just as powerful as a .40", and he assured everyone standing in line that he was a good enough shot to 'pop' anyone at any time with it. Anyway, he'd always give people grief who had guns, asking why they 'needed' them, and so on, so one time when I had to testify in a child sex abuse case, I intentionally carried my .44 Mag Redhawk in a Bianchi shoulder rig.

To keep him calm, I unloaded the revolver outside in my vehicle, and carried it up to the counter cylinder swung out, and hammer zip-tied through the trigger-guard so he couldn't play with it and dry-fire it while 'guarding' it. He asked "Why do you carry a .44 magnum (emphasizing 'magnum' like it was a distasteful word), and I just smiled, and said (emphasizing the word "I") - "...because . . . I . . . can."

I really dislike POMPOUS public servants who try to lord over the mere citizens like that.

stretch wrote:It's a hassle, though - especially if it's pouring rain!

Yeah, I wish the smug, gated-subdivision 'elite' Liberals around here who are scared of CCW had to obey 'gun' rules for their golf-clubs:

When in this city, that type Putter is a felony to possess.
Your clubs are ok in Columbus, but only if you're traveling through, and not staying overnight.
These clubs here have to always be carried in 'plain sight', but
These other clubs must be stored in a locking case in the trunk,
(and if you don't have a 'trunk', then you will be arrested)
Don't forget, the golf balls have to be locked up and stored separately.
Unless you can prove you're a member of a recognized golf organization, you need a state license.
You may only have golf clubs in your vehicle IF you can prove you are going directly to or from a course.
If you have more than six golf-clubs in your vehicle, you need a special note from the sheriff.
Any club with titanium in it, or with a leather handle more than 8-5/8" long, is illegal in Illinois.
A synthetic handle cover may be up to 10" long, but only if you carry it in a blue leather bag.
If your vehicle breaks down within a 'school zone', and you leave it with golf clubs in the trunk, it is a felony.
If instead, you carry the clubs with you as you walk to the service station down the road, that is also a felonly.
If you call a police officer to ask him which of the above to do, he will confiscate your clubs, and still charge you with a felony.
Violation of any of these laws will be a felony on your record.
Violation of any of these laws will cause lifetime prohibition of owning any golf equipment.

I sure do with some of the non-gun people had to deal with garbage like we do. Maybe they'd get a clue about 'freedom'.

Dave wrote:That is a bad situation to be in. I know more than one person in your situation and they carry small automatics in their pocket with a pocket holster. Guns like Ruger LCPs. They wear dress pants or khakis at work. If they ever had to use a gun at work they would be fired but would be alive. It really comes down to don't ask, don't tell and having a very concealable gun. A little gun doesn't provide much of an offensive capability but at least it gives you a tool to try to get yourself out of a situation.

In case you think anyone pegs you with a 'reputation' as an employee who might carry a gun (i.e. a jealous fellow drug-rep you share a zip-code with, wanting to get rid of you, before the next 'downsizing'), consider carrying a smaller REAL gun, and a larger NON-gun replica, like an AirSoft one. I was in that 'HMO' and at one point they were trying to get rid of doctors who were exposing stuff they'd do that cut corners and led to inferior care, so I carried a 'Beretta 92' replica in an IWB holster under a 'polo' shirt, but a double-stack Para-Ordnance 1911 in condition one, with 14 Golden Sabre HP's in it in a shoulder holster under my left armpit. I figured if some middle-management lackey arrived to get rid of me by 'catching' me with a gun, I'd just hand over the AirSoft and explain that I was really uncomfortable around real firearms, but just wanted to have something in case I needed to 'scare' someone. I think that company, like most, was run by such stupid middle-management lackeys and such detached-from-reality executives at the 'top', that they would have fallen for the ploy.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:36 pm

Florida now has a law on the books that says that an employer cannot prohibit an employee from having a legal weapon in their vehicle on the employers property. Some groups have tried to fight it saying that you are taking away the owner's right to say what can and cannot be brought onto the property they own, but the courts ruled that the property owner's rights cannot over ride the right of the employee to carry.

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:26 pm

Here's an interesting question:
Let's say, hypothetically, that I chose not to carry out of fear of losing my job.
Let's say I was in a situation where I could have prevented a rape or murder if I had been carrying a firearm, but was unable to prevent the crime without being killed due to being unarmed.
Let's say the victim or victim's family found out that I might have been able to prevent the crime but could not due to company policy.
How would that look in the media?

P

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:29 pm

And just for levity, my Walmart story.

Some years ago I bought my son a .22 at walmart. Of course the counter person had to call a supervisor, all of 21.2 yrs old, to carry the boxed rifle out to my car for me after the sale. As we approached my car, I said to the kid, "they make you carry that empty, boxed rifle, while I carry this loaded pistol", at which time I flapped open my jacket enough to expose my 1911. The look on his face was priceless, but as a CCW holder I was fully in compliance with the law and there is no "no carry" policy at walmart in NYS......

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:47 pm

firefuzz wrote:
pharmseller wrote:I work for a major pharmaceutical company that shall remain nameless, but rhymes with "shirk."

It is against company policy to carry a firearm in the company vehicle.

I like my job, and the fact that I can pay my mortgage.

While I ride for the brand, I follow the rules.

But I don't like it.

P
As much as I don't care for it, this is the catch. They own the vehicle, pay the insurance on it, and they can get away with it. Be like a UPS or Fed-X driver.

Rob

That is the key. My company has the same policy. Funny though, as taking customers to a range or hunting are perfectly acceptable. I can understand the policy - the liablity would have to be horrendous in our litigious society. Especially for a large multi-national company. The ambulance-chasers sober over suing them for any reason.

That being said, there have been times I may have not completely followed the policy. Figure I'd rather be looking for a new job than my wife having to look for a new husband and father to our kids.

Of course, for me now it is mostly a moot point. I have to fly to most of my customers, and don't bother with the hassle of checking a firearm with the airlines...

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:51 pm

pharmseller wrote:Here's an interesting question:
Let's say, hypothetically, that I chose not to carry out of fear of losing my job.
Let's say I was in a situation where I could have prevented a rape or murder if I had been carrying a firearm, but was unable to prevent the crime without being killed due to being unarmed.
Let's say the victim or victim's family found out that I might have been able to prevent the crime but could not due to company policy.
How would that look in the media?

P

Leftist media wouldn't find it "news-worthy", as citizen carry doesn't fit their world-view. Only way you'd hear about is if the company was one of the "evil corporations" they love to hate.

Now, as noted before, some scum-sucking John Edwards wannabe would have a field-day with it. Not that he or she would agree with citizen carry; they'd just see the opportunity to attack a big business and get a big pay-off.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:59 pm

adirondakjack wrote: One FEDERAL rule that needs fixing IMHO is the one prohibiting carry by long haul truckers.

That's myth. They teach it in trucking schools and companies say it too, but there is no federal law that bans CDL truckers or any legal firearm holder from transporting personal firearms. Check DOT rules and Federal Criminal Code. Nothing there banning guns.

Truckers just have to know the state and local laws where they travel and keep up as those laws change. Not an easy task.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:20 pm

pharmseller wrote:Here's an interesting question:
Let's say, hypothetically, that I chose not to carry out of fear of losing my job.
Let's say I was in a situation where I could have prevented a rape or murder if I had been carrying a firearm, but was unable to prevent the crime without being killed due to being unarmed.
Let's say the victim or victim's family found out that I might have been able to prevent the crime but could not due to company policy.
How would that look in the media?

Well, the news media wouldn't care, but what I'd like to see is a LAWSUIT from a victim or next of kin against some scum-bag company with a 'gun-free-zone' policy.

Ysabel Kid wrote:I can understand the policy - the liablity would have to be horrendous in our litigious society. Especially for a large multi-national company. The ambulance-chasers sober over suing them for any reason.

They shiver in fear that they'll be sued if they 'allow' an employee - or even customer, in some cases - to CCW, on the grounds that it 'endangered' others. However, I understand that CCW licensees on average are less likely to be found guilty of accidentally shooting someone, or of murder, than are police officers, who those same companies seem to love having a 'presence' on the premises. (...and yes, I realize some of that is due to being held to 'different standards', and exposed to different risks and stresses, but it does illustrate a good argument to throw back against those companies who prohibit CCW.) Besides, they'll get sued, regardless, these days, so they may as well accept that fact, and have the fortitude to just do what's SAFEST for the customers and employees, which is obviously to allow CCW.

The companies should be made to FEAR lawsuits for prohibiting CCW.

Ohioans for Concealed Carry puts little "Rapist Free Zone" stickers or something like that on the doors of businesses with 'no guns allowed' signs.

A local bank had a 'no guns' policy, so when we were going to open a rather large account and start up a line of credit, I intentionally started through the process at that bank, made myself known there to be a nice, friendly, professional, and potentially profitable, customer, then at the last minute, made a show of 'noticing' their signage, and acted surprised that any business would have such a dangerous and discriminatory (i.e. my wife, or my female office manager couldn't possibly be expected to go there and do business on my behalf, as women, with the bank expecting them to be disarmed).

If people would do that more often, to ALL sorts of anti-gun businesses - embarrass them, take your business elsewhere, and confront their 'attitude' as NON-employees, that could help people like pharmseller. Maybe I'll have to cozy up to that particular company and then make a show of discovering they expect their reps to be disarmed, and that I just can't support such a rapist-favoring corporation.

Here's the legal analogy I'd use - suppose some 'risk management' consultant decided that due to a couple high-profile incidents where individuals used Epi-pens to assault others, that Epi-pens were simply 'too dangerous' to allow on company property. You can be sure that the next asthmatic who died there for lack of his/her Epi-pen, would sue, and SHOULD sue, and hopefully, would take them to the cleaners. Same if any potentially lifesaving equipment, like fire extinguishers, or tourniquets, or whatever, would be prohibited on company property.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:21 am

My Seacamp .380 has become a constant fixture on my person. If my work or my state did not allow CCW, then I would find new work, or loose my job if ever discovered, or move out of state. I am not out looking for trouble. I do not want to ever use my ccw to hurt someone else. I am merely protecting myself. I do not brandish the weapon, I do not tell people I work with that I carry. I do not offer that info to anyone that knows me. I perhaps rudely do not ask others when invited into their home. they do not know its there. I don't ask in my church nor do i tell. so I guess for me is, despite areas that I travel through, I follow the don't ask, don't tell policy. Each person has to make his own choices.

2571 · Post by **2571** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:10 pm

I'm an employer. We prohibited firearms on my pemises after finding an employee's 12 year old kid holding a pistol in my partner's office. Neither partner was on premises when employee decided not pay a baby sitter that day and brought her juvenile deliquent son to work (he was suspended from school). Partner & I are retired LEO's. Pistol had been left in desk while partner went to court. Wandering, bored, unsupervised little jd just happened to find the 1911 as I came in from the street.

Can't trust employees to act reasonably so we all suffer the consequences.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:28 pm

2571 wrote:Can't trust employees to act reasonably so we all suffer the consequences.

Even though the lawyers sue everyone in sight, that wasn't the fault of allowing CCW on company property, but rather was the fault of an INDIVIDUAL who acted irresponsibly (actually two, in that anyone with a kid should have taught the kid enough gun safety to have avoided a problem, any more than you'd expect a 12 year old kid to stick a paperclip in an electric outlet and chew on it).

I can somewhat understand a court of law as a 'gun-free' zone, but the partner did have an alternative - his vehicle, or a lock-box, or even the good old fashioned 'fix' of slipping a padlock around the topstrap of a revolver (renders it completely un-fireable, and obviously so even if a kid is waving it around), or removing the barrel or slide from a semiautomatic and keeping it on one's person or at least elsewhere.

30-some years ago in Ohio, I saw a pharmacist hand over a sealed and full stock bottle of Dilaudid (perhaps the most potent narcotic ever) to a police officer after a holdup. The bottle had been in the safe the whole time of the robbery, yet the pharmacist opened the safe and got it out as soon as the cop came to take the report. The officer nodded at the full bottle on the countertop while taking report, and said "I assume this is something I should take as 'evidence'?" to which the pharmacist mumbled "yes". The pharmacist told me later it was because Ohio had prohibited CCW, and (at the time) it was interpreted even that a 'shopkeeper' couldn't have a handgun in the store. This pharmacist had been observed in the past as having a handgun (kept on the shelf under the prescription counter) by a cop, and still was doing so at the time, as it was a really ghetto neighborhood, and many times after robberies, the crooks would take any young female employee they saw with them as hostage, and she'd be raped, mutilated, and her body found later. This pharmacist was determined NOT to ever let that happen to one of his employees (several were family, even). Anyway, he was at the mercy of crooked cops who would arrest him for 'CCW' or whatever it would be called if in a store, vs. on your person. All I remember was how stupid it seemed that Ohio disallowed concealed carry, and how having the gun stuck on a shelf vs. concealed and controlled on an individual's person, seemed unsafe. I thought about the "what if an employee's kid is with them when they stop by on their day off to pick up their paycheck or whatever" scenario even then.

Catshooter · Post by **Catshooter** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:52 pm

2571 wrote:I'm an employer. We prohibited firearms on my pemises after finding an employee's 12 year old kid holding a pistol in my partner's office. Neither partner was on premises when employee decided not pay a baby sitter that day and brought her juvenile deliquent son to work (he was suspended from school). Partner & I are retired LEO's. Pistol had been left in desk while partner went to court. Wandering, bored, unsupervised little jd just happened to find the 1911 as I came in from the street.

Can't trust employees to act reasonably so we all suffer the consequences.

With no intention to flame, in my view, it was the partner, not an employee who was irresponsible in the above situation. Partner assumed no one would get to his unsecured 1911.

So in reality, the partners couldn't be trusted to act responibly and subsequently punished the employees for their failures.

Happens all too frequently in our society, to bad too.

Cat

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:19 pm

What kills me is say if you live right on the Pa/NY border, most of the travels you cannot carry(where all the stores etc. are) because of if you get caught in NYS even with your CCW from Pa"you are a felon" and your screwed.
If you happen to have had 3 of your legal Pa handguns in your vehicle,your looking at 10 years in prison for being an illegal arms dealer?
Working at a Company, but if you are a noted hunter/shooting sportsman dont be surprised to maybe be a object of a random search being either of yourself or your vehicle. Give em a hard time and your gone right then or if not right then maybe a week later for somthing that all of a sudden might just come up out of the blue to get you on

(this is even with your Bow locked in the trunk)
So when packing you always have to be sure (ok,I am still only in Pa)

Otherwise say wanna go to like Sam's Club or the Mall, better dump the gun at home in Pa)
There are even parts being on I86 that your in Pa/mile later nope your in NY/mile later nope in Pa??????????
Better not get caught in NY

But when the family is murdered by some punk, cops can say----geez thats too bad? Shame? Wonder why the punk did it?---- must have had a bad childhood! What a bloody mess! Wanna grab a doughnut? "sigh"
What in God's name have we become?

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:23 pm

madman4570 wrote:What in God's name have we become?

Largely, a nation of materialistic and shallow wimps, unfortunately...

Between the leeches, lawyers, and socialists, we 'normal' folks haven't a chance...

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:34 pm

Catshooter wrote:
With no intention to flame, in my view, it was the partner, not an employee who was irresponsible in the above situation. Partner assumed no one would get to his unsecured 1911.

So in reality, the partners couldn't be trusted to act responibly and subsequently punished the employees for their failures.

Happens all too frequently in our society, to bad too.

Cat

+1

And being a retired LEO (leaving the gun unsecured

)
Could have been same thing at his house? (maybe no more invited guests)

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:31 am

Tycer wrote:
adirondakjack wrote:One FEDERAL rule that needs fixing IMHO is the one prohibiting carry by long haul truckers.
That's myth. They teach it in trucking schools and companies say it too, but there is no federal law that bans CDL truckers or any legal firearm holder from transporting personal firearms. Check DOT rules and Federal Criminal Code. Nothing there banning guns.

Aye, it's a myth.

Truckers just have to know the state and local laws where they travel and keep up as those laws change. Not an easy task.

Ditto.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:02 am

Griff wrote:
Tycer wrote:
adirondakjack wrote:One FEDERAL rule that needs fixing IMHO is the one prohibiting carry by long haul truckers.
That's myth. They teach it in trucking schools and companies say it too, but there is no federal law that bans CDL truckers or any legal firearm holder from transporting personal firearms. Check DOT rules and Federal Criminal Code. Nothing there banning guns.
Aye, it's a myth.
Truckers just have to know the state and local laws where they travel and keep up as those laws change. Not an easy task.
Ditto.

Griff,
Heres only my take on it.
If a person is a Long Haul(over the road)driver doing the state to state type deal,heck with a handgun even if you have a CCW from your state.

The Federal law protects you only if your on DIRECT route to a offical reconized shooting event(like NRA event)etc. and you must have the documentation showing this.Whats more you can if traveling through a state that dont allow/honor your permit you must have the gun seperately locked in two seperate containers and it cant be easily accessed by you.(like locked in a trunk)not a glove compartment.(what good is it that way)
Only other way is if you are going from a state that honors your permit DIRECTLY to another state that honors your permit.And I mean other than veering off the interstate for gas and go and a quick pee better not get caught hanging out at a coffee shop.(was told this by some LEO's)
Sooner or later it will get you.then your a felon/no guns ever,no ammo ever etc. Its a huge risk.(lose job??)

My way of thinking is to have a 26.5" OAL 20ga or 12ga with a 18.5" barrel with some manstoppers.
Right up in the cab with quick easy access. Heck even if you ever did forget and it was loaded (which I know you wouldnt do) what would be the fine compared to being a felon???
I would have it affixed somewhere right next to the right side of the drivers seat.
Because I am telling you right now,say you are on route to Vermont if you are in NY and have on your person a handgun,dont matter where you are headed or its in a accessable place to get it with ammo(your a felon)
Also Just telling them,ya I am going to---------(some state that honors your permit)dont work either,you must show documented proof of the destination/time/date etc where you are directly going to???(same LEO's told me that also)

yep, a 26.5" OAL 18.5" barreled single shotgun to go! Only other way ?? become a cop so you can carry all over.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:17 am

If something should happen on company time, in their car or
on their property and you were denied the right of self defense...
and they did not provide securtiy .....at all levels...
they are liable...period.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:36 am

I hear ya, but good luck with that one!
I thought this link below was a cool quick access aid.(make sure just one state box checked at a time)
Note: This may not be accurate and laws always change so verify valid before just going by this!
Also check mark the box of vermont hit build CCW map, see what states you can go into? (talk about being boxed in)

http://www.handgunlaw.us/LicMaps/ccwmap.php

Catshooter · Post by **Catshooter** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:00 pm

RIHMFIRE wrote:If something should happen on company time, in their car or
on their property and you were denied the right of self defense...
and they did not provide securtiy .....at all levels...
they are liable...period.

That is quite true rimfire. However, being crippled/blinded for life or dead I doubt I would take much solice from their liability.

Also, their liability does not automatically translate into money/benefits for you. It sounds good, and you see it all the time in the news, but it doesn't always work out that way.

Cat

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:11 pm

Carry a good, quick opening folder, practice taking it out/opening it. Mentally develop the resolve to use it. Visualize yourself retriving, opening and running at the danger all in a half second or less. You will win most of the time if you are within 10 feet...that's just a fact. Knives scare cops more than guns, almost. A good Cold Steel walking stick/cane (without the sword) is pretty handy, as well.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:24 pm

madman4570 wrote:Griff,
The Federal law protects you only if your on DIRECT route to a offical reconized shooting event(like NRA event)etc. and you must have the documentation showing this. Whats more you can if traveling through a state that dont allow/honor your permit you must have the gun seperately locked in two seperate containers and it cant be easily accessed by you. (like locked in a trunk) not a glove compartment. (what good is it that way)
Only other way is if you are going from a state that honors your permit DIRECTLY to another state that honors your permit.And I mean other than veering off the interstate for gas and go and a quick pee better not get caught hanging out at a coffee shop.(was told this by some LEO's)
Sooner or later it will get you.then your a felon/no guns ever,no ammo ever etc. Its a huge risk.(lose job??)
.........................
Because I am telling you right now,say you are on route to Vermont if you are in NY and have on your person a handgun,dont matter where you are headed or its in a accessable place to get it with ammo(your a felon)
Also Just telling them, "ya I am going to---------(some state that honors your permit)" don't work either, you must show documented proof of the destination/time/date etc where you are directly going to??? (same LEO's told me that also)

I guess I'll never understand what kind of IMMORAL SCUM of a LEO would enforce such ridiculous, blatantly unconstitutional, and civilian-endangering laws, in the first place...! Saying "It's just my job", or "just following orders" reminds me of what the Gestapo would say in the WW-II movies as they shot women and children in the back. Stripping innocent and otherwise law-abidiing citizens of their ability to protect themselves is simply NOT what I think of when I hear the phrase "to protect and serve".

Nice that the ones on duty have guns, even perhaps full-auto ones, Kevlar body armor, and layers of human and radio backup, and the ones on vacation have nationwide concealed carry for themselves. [/rant off]

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:08 pm

The crazy guy taking hostages at the Discovery Channel HQ in Maryland is a good example of this kind of thing. I understand Maryland has strict gun laws. I would guess the Discovery Channel prohibits employees from carrying weapons at work. Events like this are rare no doubt, but the answer to the question "How often does someone get killed around here?" is always the same............... "Just once".

While a gun like a Glock 19 would provide you with the capability to act offensively to neutralize the threat, a little gun like a Smith 642 or Ruger LCP would not. However, if you are forced to hide in a locked office while the police try to handle it, it would sure be a good feeling to know you can at least put some fire on the doorway if crazy guy comes through it.

It is not always possible to survive every encounter and no one is getting out of this world alive anyway. But it is always preferable to go down shooting than just be killed any time.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:30 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
madman4570 wrote:Griff,
The Federal law protects you only if your on DIRECT route to a offical reconized shooting event(like NRA event)etc. and you must have the documentation showing this. Whats more you can if traveling through a state that dont allow/honor your permit you must have the gun seperately locked in two seperate containers and it cant be easily accessed by you. (like locked in a trunk) not a glove compartment. (what good is it that way)
Only other way is if you are going from a state that honors your permit DIRECTLY to another state that honors your permit.And I mean other than veering off the interstate for gas and go and a quick pee better not get caught hanging out at a coffee shop.(was told this by some LEO's)
Sooner or later it will get you.then your a felon/no guns ever,no ammo ever etc. Its a huge risk.(lose job??)
.........................
Because I am telling you right now,say you are on route to Vermont if you are in NY and have on your person a handgun,dont matter where you are headed or its in a accessable place to get it with ammo(your a felon)
Also Just telling them, "ya I am going to---------(some state that honors your permit)" don't work either, you must show documented proof of the destination/time/date etc where you are directly going to??? (same LEO's told me that also)
I guess I'll never understand what kind of IMMORAL SCUM of a LEO would enforce such ridiculous, blatantly unconstitutional, and civilian-endangering laws, in the first place...! Saying "It's just my job", or "just following orders" reminds me of what the Gestapo would say in the WW-II movies as they shot women and children in the back. Stripping innocent and otherwise law-abidiing citizens of their ability to protect themselves is simply NOT what I think of when I hear the phrase "to protect and serve". Nice that the ones on duty have guns, even perhaps full-auto ones, Kevlar body armor, and layers of human and radio backup, and the ones on vacation have nationwide concealed carry for themselves. [/rant off]

FWIW, a Woman (Nurse) was flying from X to Y and had an intermediate stop in NYC. She had her legally packed and stowed handgun in her checked luggage. Unfortunately for her, her flight got stopped for some typical reason and she was forced to deplane and transload luggage.

She was arrested for possession of a Handgun in NYC without an appropriate Mob/Government permit - even though it never left her luggage. "Ignorance is no excuse" etc, etc. I think she is/was fighting it, but IIRC she was getting no help from any of RKBA's "big guns"...

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:35 pm

Dave wrote:The crazy guy taking hostages at the Discovery Channel HQ in Maryland is a good example of this kind of thing. I understand Maryland has strict gun laws. I would guess the Discovery Channel prohibits employees from carrying weapons at work. Events like this are rare no doubt, but the answer to the question "How often does someone get killed around here?" is always the same............... "Just once".

While a gun like a Glock 19 would provide you with the capability to act offensively to neutralize the threat, a little gun like a Smith 642 or Ruger LCP would not. However, if you are forced to hide in a locked office while the police try to handle it, it would sure be a good feeling to know you can at least put some fire on the doorway if crazy guy comes through it.

It is not always possible to survive every encounter and no one is getting out of this world alive anyway. But it is always preferable to go down shooting than just be killed any time.

Have not heard much about this story, but how wouldnt a S&W 642 or the Ruger neutralize the threat but a glock 19 would ?
Most of these idiots doing this stuff are cowards and the first bullet striking them their true colors show.
Thats why they tend to kill themselves because they headshoot themselves to avoid any pain.
One or Two 38+p rounds (say one in the center chest and one in the adams apple or head should do?
Or---3 or 4 .380 Extremes in the bread basket?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:40 pm

madman4570 wrote:Have not heard much about this story, but how wouldnt a S&W 642 or the Ruger neutralize the threat but a glock 19 would ?

Defensively, both would work well.

But the Glock could be used a bit more... agressively... in stopping the attack on others.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:07 pm

madman4570 wrote:
Dave wrote:The crazy guy taking hostages at the Discovery Channel HQ in Maryland is a good example of this kind of thing. I understand Maryland has strict gun laws. I would guess the Discovery Channel prohibits employees from carrying weapons at work. Events like this are rare no doubt, but the answer to the question "How often does someone get killed around here?" is always the same............... "Just once".

While a gun like a Glock 19 would provide you with the capability to act offensively to neutralize the threat, a little gun like a Smith 642 or Ruger LCP would not. However, if you are forced to hide in a locked office while the police try to handle it, it would sure be a good feeling to know you can at least put some fire on the doorway if crazy guy comes through it.

It is not always possible to survive every encounter and no one is getting out of this world alive anyway. But it is always preferable to go down shooting than just be killed any time.
Have not heard much about this story, but how wouldnt a S&W 642 or the Ruger neutralize

If you have a pocket rocket and no reloads your odds of neutralizing a long gun armed man are not that great. I would hate to be manhunting with 5 rounds of 38 in a J frame. It is always possible to get lucky but the odds are not in your favor. If the threat appeared very close you would be forced to fire, but moving toward gunfire armed with a pop gun is a sinking feeling. Even with a powerful gun, moving toward gunfire makes me feel funny

However, if you have a service automatic with 15 rounds in it you have a lot better chance of getting your hits and handling the situation. I usually have a G19 and one extra mag for a total of 30 rounds. That is a lot of rounds. If you start shooting up the place I am coming for you.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:56 pm

Dave wrote: If you have a pocket rocket and no reloads your odds of neutralizing a long gun armed man are not that great. I would hate to be manhunting with 5 rounds of 38 in a J frame. It is always possible to get lucky but the odds are not in your favor. If the threat appeared very close you would be forced to fire, but moving toward gunfire armed with a pop gun is a sinking feeling. Even with a powerful gun, moving toward gunfire makes me feel funny

A friend of mine was in church one Sunday, packing a Rossi 38 snubnose with 5 rounds of ammo. Two guys with AK47's and grenades came in, shooting up the place and blowing things up - the grenades had nails wired to them to increase damage. He engaged them at 50 meters, approximately, two shots. Realized his odds were pretty short - took the exit, came around the building, found third guy in a get away car. Stepped back, took a breath, came back around and the other two guys were getting in the car and they took off. He fired the last three rounds at them as they left. Turns out that of the first two rounds, one took effect. That was all it took.

No, a snub nose 38 is not the best option against two guys wielding full auto rifles and grenades - but it sure beats the heck out of the full sized service weapon you left at home because it was "inconvenient" or too bulky to easily conceal.

From his experience I learned to always carry at least one reload - usually two. You can read about his experience and about the Christian right and duty of self defense in the book "Shooting Back" - available through World Net Daily.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:08 pm

AmBraCol wrote:[

A friend of mine was in church one Sunday, packing a Rossi 38 snubnose with 5 rounds of ammo. Two guys with AK47's and grenades came in, shooting up the place and blowing things up - the grenades had nails wired to them to increase damage. He engaged them at 50 meters, approximately, two shots. Realized his odds were pretty short - took the exit, came around the building, found third guy in a get away car. Stepped back, took a breath, came back around and the other two guys were getting in the car and they took off. He fired the last three rounds at them as they left. Turns out that of the first two rounds, one took effect. That was all it took.

No, a snub nose 38 is not the best option against two guys wielding full auto rifles and grenades - but it sure beats the heck out of the full sized service weapon you left at home because it was "inconvenient" or too bulky to easily conceal.

From his experience I learned to always carry at least one reload - usually two. You can read about his experience and about the Christian right and duty of self defense in the book "Shooting Back" - available through World Net Daily.

Your friend is a brave man and a fine shot.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:36 pm

AmBraCol wrote:
Dave wrote:...No, a snub nose 38 is not the best option against two guys wielding full auto rifles and grenades - but it sure beats the heck out of the full sized service weapon you left at home because it was "inconvenient" or too bulky to easily conceal....

's why I like "compromise" weapons... My SP101 or a G26/G27/29 for example. A tad bigger than a true "pocket" gun but easy enough to conceal.

Even the G19/23 isn't too hard to hide.

BUT when it comes down to it, some gun is better than no gun, and for that I have the NAA .32 and Grizzly ammo...

Post by **AmBraCol** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:23 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:
AmBraCol wrote:
Dave wrote:...No, a snub nose 38 is not the best option against two guys wielding full auto rifles and grenades - but it sure beats the heck out of the full sized service weapon you left at home because it was "inconvenient" or too bulky to easily conceal....
BUT when it comes down to it, some gun is better than no gun, and for that I have the NAA .32 and Grizzly ammo...

And I forgot to mention - if I knew I was going to have to face two guys with full auto rifles and grenades I wouldn't pack a snubnose as my main weapon - shucks, I'd do my best to not show up at all!

Still, if I can't take care of it with my sixgun and two reloads - I'm outta luck anyway. You can't miss fast enough to win gun fights or shooting "games". The last time I shot against the high cap guys with fancy sites I took top score - using my "out dated" 38 sixshooter. Take your time, quickly, and make each shot count. Noise doesn't count, only hits.

Oh - and although I don't anticipate shooting at 50 meters, one never knows. So occasionally the old sixgun gets used at that distance on poppers. It's not that hard of a shot to make if you shoot a hand gun often enough. I believe Charl shoots at longer ranges now too. I'll have to ask him one of these days.