Range report-1886 .45-90 WCF

[Mike D.]

Today is day three of the annual pear harvest, so thing are on the fly down at the ranch. We started the BPMs(Butirra Precoce Morittini), an early variety of sweet and tart pears the originated in Italy, on Friday and the bins are coming and going like gangbusters. Another 48 left on a truck this afternoon.

I took my recently purchased 1886 ELWTD .45-90 WCF rifle along this morning to do a bit of load testing. At noon, when the temp was approaching the high 90s in the shade, I set my table, chrono, and target up in the only place that is out of the way. No shade and hot as Hades. I took a bunch of pics, but my photo program won't load for some reason. Probably too many photos on it. If it ever decides to work I'll toss several hundred old pictures.

The first load consisted of 40 grs IMR 3031 and 300 grain Laser Cast bullets loaded in Starline brass and sparked by Winchester LR primers.
The five shots had MVs of 1580, 1582, 1583, 1583, and 1580 FPS. Recoil was negligible and the gun ran very smoothly. All cases ejected easily and were nice and clean.

The next load was a real hum dinger. Crikey! It was not near a heavy load but turned out to be quite a steamer. 300 grain Barnes Original jacketed FPs in front of 52.5 grains IMR 4198. Same Starline brass and Winchester primers. Again, 5 shots were fired. MVs were 2454, 2447, 2441, 2443, and 2451 FPS. No problem, the cases ejected easily and presented no issues. The primers were perfect and showed zero signs of pressure. Recoil, on the other hand was severe. The steel butt plate carved up my shoulder, despite the PAST recoil shield that I was wearing. There are bloody spots on my T-shirt. This is probably due to my card table being a bit low and me having to bend forward on the rest. All shots turned out high and to the right of the bull, with only two in each group within the outer ring. The gun has a Lyman No 21 rear sight that was lowered all the way, but probably needs to be drifted to the left some. Later, I will try some other loads, especially those with Barnes 250 grain TSX bullets

I have a box of those TSXs loaded with 64 grains IMR 3031, but those will be torn down and reloaded with 60 grains. At the rate things are goin', those all copper bullets would be going nearly 2600 FPS if left as-is. Nope, that ain't gonna happen. I know that the short 250s will be mule deer killers for sure and will be good out to at least 200 yds. When I get then reloaded I'll do a chrono test on them and report.

I'm very happy with this light little gun. It did very well, considering it's 104 yr age and my sweat filled eyes. I forgot my cover and the sun baked my head a bit too much. Dang the CA summer heat.

[KirkD]

Wow!! 300 grain bullets out the barrel of an original '86 45-90 at 2,445 fps!!!! And I thought Snooky Williamson's loads were steamy.

[Mike D.]

Kirk, according to my No 43 Lyman load book that is still 4 grains below the top load for the .45-90 and still within the limitations of the pre-nickel steel barrels, and mine has a NS barrel. Maybe the newer versions of IMR powders are hotter than the older ones, but I'm not sure. Aside from the heat and the barrel being hot, the rifle exhibited absolutely no signs of pressure. I have had extraction difficulties with some .33 WCF loads, but certainly not these. It's nice to load five rounds in an old '86 and have them cycle perfectly in and out of the action. One of these days I'll see exactly how many .45-90 cartridges the gun will hold in the full length magazine. It's 22", so at least seven will fit.

[Mike D.]

After the high velocity experienced with IMR 4198 in the 45-90 I removed the bullets and powder from the 20 rds I had loaded with 64 grs IMR 3031 and 250 gr Barnes TSX bullets. It's time to think long and hard on what weight of either 4198 or 3031 to load to insure the velocity not be too extreme. Knowing that copper bullets exit the bore at higher speeds than jacketed lead tells me that a reduced powder charge is necessary. Also, what other powders will give good results in this caliber? Would 4895 or Reloader 7 be a better choice?

[KirkD]

Mike, what velocity would you like to aim for? I used to have an original 45-90 and played around with various powders and loads.

By the way, in that Lyman reloading data, what velocity did they say you should expect?

[Mike D.]

Kirk, I would like to be able to push the 250 Barnes TSX at around 2200 FPS, an easily obtained velocity with not too much pressure.

The Lyman 43rd Edition shows 53 grs 4198 giving a velocity of 2020 FPS. My load of the same powder and bullet was over 400 FPS faster. The Maximum load shown is 57 grs( Nickel Steel barrels only), which it claims to provide 2215 FPS. Holy Smokes! If I had loaded my Starline cases to that data, the MV might possibly have exceeded 2600 FPS!! This speaks volumes concerning the increased potency of the more recent versions of 4198.

The lowest load shown for 3031 is 60 grs, with an expected MV of 1835. This load was recommended for older, ordnance steel barreled, rifles. The Max load is 64 grs(NS only), and it's printed velocity is 2040 FPS.

Rather than use either of my older NS barreled .45-90 Winchesters as a test platform, that duty will fall to the Browning Carbine. I will probably start at 50 grs 3031 with the 250 Barnes TSX and go from there. I really hate to waste the expensive bullets on tests, but must if reliable data can be expected. I am going to remove the sling ring from the carbine and install an original, new condition, Lyman 21 sight on it. I will have a reliable local smith do the drilling and tapping of the receiver, using the template that is included in the box with the sight. A taller front sight blade will also be required. That should most definitely be an improvement over the stock carbine sight. Another, and probably much more expensive, option would be to have the bolt milled to accept a Winchester 98A bolt peep sight. I have no idea of anyone who does this work, so any suggestions are quite welcome.

[Malamute]

Mike, I havent used 4198 much, but my impression is that it's fairly fast, and may peak in pressure long before 3031 will. It takes more 3031 to make comparable velocity, but the pressure should peak much slower. From my recall of Paul Mathews book about the 45-70, he was getting better velocity from 400 gr bullets than 300 with similar charges of 3031. It just burned more eficiently with the heavier bullet. I'd still stick with it in the '90 over 4198 tho if it was me.

Are you getting any unburned powder left in the bore with the 3031?

I re-read all this. Did you shoot any of the 3031 loads? The 60 or 64 grs may be OK. another angle to approach this from is, start lower with the 4198 loads, and load until you reach your target velocity, regardless of the books data. 4198 may be better with the light bullets, you'll just have to see how consistant the loads are.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

At an average 2447fps, those 300 grain FNSP loads are doing right about 4000 ft-lbs. Using 52.5 grains of IMR4198 (1.76 million Joules / lb.), that would make that load 40.8% efficient. That's unusually high efficiency ... especially from a 22" barrel. I show that they should be making more like 3100 ft-lbs. which would make them 31.6% efficient.

I would borrow another chronograph and check to make sure yours and the loaner are in close agreement. I think your chrono may be reading somewhere between 270 to 320 fps high at these velocities.

Still, from the bench with a traditional Winchester rifle buttplate those are going to sting real good. What's your case length and overall length for those loads with the 300 grain Barnes Originals?

[Malamute]

Good point, about the chrongraph. I was wondering if it was reading high from muzzle blast. I think some loads are more problematic than others in that regard.

[Mike D.]

The chrono was set up at about 12' from the muzzle, so it is entirely possible that MB could have effected the outcome. I have had problems with the sky screens flying off during testing before, even with the machine 15' out.

The COL of the .45-90 loaded with 300 Barnes Original is 2.815".

I will probably invest in a better powder scale, too. I am a bit concerned about the old RCBS mechanical one that I have used for years. It is level and balanced, but could be giving false readings. I weighed some charges more than once to insure correct readings, but something might be amiss with the old scale. I do know that none of the loads were compressed.

I did not fire any of the 64 grain 3031 loads. They were emptied and the powder returned to the can. The cases are prepped for loading again, but I have been too busy to mess with them.

[KirkD]

I have found that for older published data, the results can be wildly off. The only reason I can think of is changes in the burn rates of some powders over the last 30 years or so. This may or may not be part of the problem.

I checked my copy of Ken Waters' Pet Loads. The stiffest load he published was 55 grains of IMR 4895 under a 300 Hornady JHP for 1,903 fps. He notes that case expansion with this load was 'maximum'.

43 grains of IMR 4198 under a 300 grain Sierra FNHP gave 1,803 fps. He also notes that case expansion was 'maximum' that he feels is safe.

Another maximum load he published was 56 grains of IMR 3031 under a 300 grain Hornady JHP for 1,810 fps.

For comparison, here are some of Snooky's loads:

65 grains of IMR 3031 under a 300 grain Hornady bullet for 2,026 fps

65 grains of IMR 3031 under a 300 grain Barnes bullet for 2,038 fps

Does anyone recall the '86 that Sixgun blew up and what cartridge and load he was using? 45-90 seems to stick in my mind, but I'm not sure, and I can't remember the load. If I recall correctly, he used the load a lot with never any pressure signs until one day the chamber let go.

[J Miller]

Here is JimT's article about blow ups. The 1886 you are thinking of in here there:
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowups.htm

Joe

[Rimfire McNutjob]

The picture indicates that Sixgun's 1886 blew at the bottom of the chamber ... where the cutout is for the magazine tube and where the receiver is thinnest between the barrel and mag tube. This is in line with the recent article in Rifle magazine by Dave Scoville about that being the most prominent place for blowouts in leveraction rifles.

Sixgun was apparently using 5744 in a rather mild load ... 1700fps using a 330 grain bullet. Certainly mild compared to where Mike D.'s loads were moving.

[KirkD]

No excessive pressure signs were detected. I'll bet that reduced velocity reading for the shot just before the blow-up was slight plastic deformation of the chamber area, increasing the volume and reducing the pressure. Sixgun's experience underscores an important point ..... failure due to fatique can occur with loads that are steamy, but still not excessive. I would imagine that MikeD's nickel steel barrels would be able to handle a higher fatique stress than Sixgun's standard barrel, though we do not know how much. Sixgun's experience was a major factor in me restraining my loads to original factory ballistics ... just in case.

[jorgy]

Does anybody load a 45-90 to 405 grain bullet? That is what I use in a
old 1895 Marlin. I use 48 grains of IMR 4895 to back it up. I tried
300 grain(cast) at first with no accuracy. The 405 I use is cast with a gas check. I get a sore shoulder every time I shoot that gun & it is a
pistol grip. I just shudder to think what would happen with a straight
stock & a crescent buttplate. Yeks!!

[KirkD]

Does anybody load a 45-90 to 405 grain bullet?

I did try one load in my original 45-90 made in 1888. It was 32.2 grains of 5744 under a 405 cast bullet for 1,503 fps. The twist in that particular rifle was 1:32 if I recall, and more intended for the lighter 300 grain bullet. I never went further with the 405 bullet, prefering to stick with the original 300 grain bullet it was designed for. Later, however, Winchester produced their 45-90's with a faster twist for the 405 bullet. Mine was not one of those.

[Mike D.]

Kirk, Jack's barrel was ordnance steel, or possibly Bessemer Soft, and eventually let go under fatigue. My .45-90s have NS barrels and that problem should not occur. Winchester rated their NS barrels at 100,000 PSI, so they are very stout, but I would like to keep the pressure down to under 40K. That should be easily doable and still provide enough velocity to push the light 250 Barnes TSX at 2000+ FPS. I want to carry that rifle this fall on my trophy mule deer hunt in the wilds of Northern California.

[KirkD]

I can see why you like the nickel steel barrels, Mike.

[Mike D.]

I FINALLY bought a new iMac G5 yesterday and had all the old files transferred to it. It turns out that my photo files in the old Mac had become corrupted by my own fault. Not all photos were salvageable, but most recent ones were. Below are some pics from the 5 July shoot.

This is my little setup. Only a card table and folding chair, which really does not make a very good shooting platform. That's probably why the little rifle kicked my butt. I still have two scars on my shoulder from that day.



My shots were high and to the right of center. like I said previously, the Lyman 21 sight needs some adjusting, but I won't touch it until I test the loads using Barnes TSX bullets.


The orange target was the result of the 40/3031 300 Laser Cast lead bullet load. The white one is from the 2400+FPS HV loading, the one that had the severe recoil.



One of these days, I'll get around to getting a REAL shooting bench, but don't want to leave it at the ranch because of all the vehicle activities around the area. Pear harvest is in full swing, so there are trucks, forklifts, and jeeps pulling full bin trailers going like mad. In the pics below, we are setting up to pick the Haley Reds, and the early pears were shipping out that day nearly a month ago.

[brno602]

I FINALLY bought a new iMac G5 yesterday and had all the old files transferred to it. It turns out that my photo files in the old Mac had become corrupted by my own fault. Not all photos were salvageable, but most recent ones were. Below are some pics from the 5 July shoot.

This is my little setup. Only a card table and folding chair, which really does not make a very good shooting platform. That's probably why the little rifle kicked my butt. I still have two scars on my shoulder from that day.



My shots were high and to the right of center. like I said previously, the Lyman 21 sight needs some adjusting, but I won't touch it until I test the loads using Barnes TSX bullets.


The orange target was the result of the 40/3031 300 Laser Cast lead bullet load. The white one is from the 2400+FPS HV loading, the one that had the severe recoil.



One of these days, I'll get around to getting a REAL shooting bench, but don't want to leave it at the ranch because of all the vehicle activities around the area. Pear harvest is in full swing, so there are trucks, forklifts, and jeeps pulling full bin trailers going like mad. In the pics below, we are setting up to pick the Haley Reds, and the early pears were shipping out that day nearly a month ago.

That is much the same setup I use, folding tables are the best thing since sliced bread! I have a home made tripod for my 20 year old chrony, my best bud has gone through one a center heart shot, my Brother in law has killed 3! chrony's:lol:
I like to be able to move my bench as I never know where the cattle will be.
That brings up this.
There is one old crazy cow on the ranch I shoot on that comes and hangs out with us and the dog she likes to watch us shoots then will walk down range to check out the targets She is a pet not livestock and will die of old age, I need to get her and the hound on video they step back let you shoot then walk down to the target with you.

[Mike D.]

I sweat shooting my Chrony every time, but it hasn't happened in the 4 yrs since I bought it. Occasionally, the sky screens go flying from the shock wave of the bullet passing through, but that's no problem.

Speaking of cows, the darned critters tear up our little cowboy action range all the time. They constantly mow down the tip up deck of cards and push over the steel deer and pig targets. No tame ones out there.