OT: I just had a strange thought ...

[J Miller]

We've got a thread going about what guns to take to the next revolution, and I just posted about an article in the AR magazine.
Well on page 44/45 of July's AR there's a photo of a painting of the battle of Bunker Hill. In the pic the British soldiers all have their bayonets fitted, while the Colonials don't .......

The strange thought was; I'd rather be shot than stuck by a bayonet. Those things should be banned, they cause damage to my self esteem. Not only that they scare the spit outa me.

Joe

[Cliff]

The british use of the Bayonet was their prime method of demoralizing their enemies. Fire a volley and follow up with the bayonets. It worked well in their day with their training. Created terrible wounds, turned many battles to their favor. IIRC it wasn't until the Colonial army was trained to use their bayonets that face to face battles with the british forces started to turn in the colonial favor. Personaly I don't like bayonets. ATB

[Ben_Rumson]

Yeah.. I remember reading what a Brit General/Lord said in a rather Blasé manor, talking about their success with the bayonet .."They came on in the same old way, and we killed them in the same old way"

[Doc Hudson]

The reason the Patriots did not have fixed bayonets is the simple fact that they didn't have any.

As long as they could keep the British held at bay with gunfire, they fared quite well and inflicted severe casualties among the advancing British troops.

When their powder and ball started running low, and the rate fo fire faltered, the British regulars pressed home the atttack and routed the patriots with great slaughteer. i don't know the exact figures, but I believe that a great majority of Patriot deqthw and casualties at Breed's Hill were inflicted by British bayonets, not gunfire.

I know it is popular to disparage the bayonet in modern times, but don't call it useless yet!

About two years ago in Iraq, elements of a company of the Blackwatch Regiment were caught in an ambush. After an hour or two, the Lieutenant in command got tired of waiting for relief. Since they'd been unable to dislodge the terrorists with gunfire or grenades, he ordered his men to fix bayonets and lead a charge against the main terrorist position.

The sight of 20 enraged Scotsmen charging with cold steel into the teeth of nearly 200 entrenched terrorists unnerved them. They broke and ran like frightened sheep. The Scots killed more than twice their number of terrorists, and took more than twice their own number prisoner, most of them wounded I believe.

No, the bayonet might not be as necessary in the day of full-automatic assault rifles as it was in the day of Brown Bess, but never discount the shock effect of cold steel. Especially do not discount the effectiveness of cold steel borne by men ready to drive home a charge in the face of overwhelming odds.

i won't give up my guns, nor will I surrender my sword, or knives. They compliment each other all too well.

[Doc Hudson]

The british use of the Bayonet was their prime method of demoralizing their enemies. Fire a volley and follow up with the bayonets. It worked well in their day with their training. Created terrible wounds, turned many battles to their favor. IIRC it wasn't until the Colonial army was trained to use their bayonets that face to face battles with the british forces started to turn in the colonial favor. Personaly I don't like bayonets. ATB

Right Cliff!

We did not win a single pitched battle until Von Stueben trained the Continental Army in European drill and tactics.

Until after our troops learned to fight in European style, we won skirmishes, but lost the battles.

I'm also reasonably certain that without Von Stueben, or someone like him, we'd not have won our independence, even with French, Spanish, and Dutch assistance.

[Blaine]

Didn't we use the indian tomahawks and war clubs to good effect?

[Sixgun]

Thats what a good 1911 is for--230 gr. "bayonets" going 830 FPS

[2ndovc]

Thats what a good 1911 is for--230 gr. "bayonets" going 830 FPS

I read somewhere that niether were(usually) a surviable wound. Either a shot to the chest from a 1911 or thrust to the same area from a bayonet were usually fatal. High impact, close range. DOA.

Bayonets have a place in an armend society just as much as sidearms.
Usually an intimadation weapon. Either your looking down a large hole at the end of the barrel of a handgun
or the fixed blade mounted on a military arm. If you have any smarts you'll be heading in another
direction.


jb

[Chas.]

I've often thought, when sharpening my machete, what a fearsome weapon it is. Just the thought of someone whacking away at me with one sends chills down my spine. Shoot me, please.

[JReed]

T
About two years ago in Iraq, elements of a company of the Blackwatch Regiment were caught in an ambush. After an hour or two, the Lieutenant in command got tired of waiting for relief. Since they'd been unable to dislodge the terrorists with gunfire or grenades, he ordered his men to fix bayonets and lead a charge against the main terrorist position.

The sight of 20 enraged Scotsmen charging with cold steel into the teeth of nearly 200 entrenched terrorists unnerved them. They broke and ran like frightened sheep. The Scots killed more than twice their number of terrorists, and took more than twice their own number prisoner, most of them wounded I believe.

Which is why bayonet techniques are still a big part of our (USMC) close combat training. Eventually you run out of bullets and nothing makes people change their way of thinking like some thing pointy on the end of a rifle.

[Doc Hudson]

I've often thought, when sharpening my machete, what a fearsome weapon it is. Just the thought of someone whacking away at me with one sends chills down my spine. Shoot me, please.

A jerk with a broken beer bottle must have had the same sort of thoughts when I pulled a machete out of my car.

Anyway he remembered an urgent appointment on the other side of the railroad tracks. Too bad a fast freight wasn't coming.

[LeverBob]

Jose....if'n a bayo scares you, just keep your pistolas real handy! And, make double sure your ammo supply is good to go.

No problemo Jose...

Senor LB

[FWiedner]

The strange thought was; I'd rather be shot than stuck by a bayonet. Those things should be banned, they cause damage to my self esteem. Not only that they scare the spit outa me.

Joe

Didn't General George S. Patton once say something to the effect that:

"There are few things that terrify a man more than the thought of having his guts probed with a piece of cold steel."



I think this conversation goes a long way towards confirming that thought.

[Doc Hudson]

just before the opening of the Battle of Fredricksburg, in December, 1862, Stonewall jackosn was inspecting the the positions on the Confederate left flank. It was quite clear that the Federals intended to make a major attack in that sector.

As Jackson rode past, a frightened young Confederate yelled out: :What we gonna do iffen th' Yankees come Gen'l?"

Stonewall reined up turned and replied: "We will give the the bayonet son. The cold hard bayonet." Then he rode on.

Not artillery fire, or musket fire, but the bayonet.

Joe is not alone. i know lots of folks, including myself who fear cold steel more than they do hot lead. Weird, but there it is.

[stanforth]

About two years ago in Iraq, elements of a company of the Blackwatch Regiment were caught in an ambush. After an hour or two, the Lieutenant in command got tired of waiting for relief. Since they'd been unable to dislodge the terrorists with gunfire or grenades, he ordered his men to fix bayonets and lead a charge against the main terrorist position.

The sight of 20 enraged Scotsmen charging with cold steel into the teeth of nearly 200 entrenched terrorists unnerved them. They broke and ran like frightened sheep. The Scots killed more than twice their number of terrorists, and took more than twice their own number prisoner, most of them wounded I believe.


.

'They don't like it up 'em Captain Mainwaring'
Brits on here will understand that.

[20cows]

'They don't like it up 'em Captain Mainwaring'
Brits on here will understand that.

My imagination is providing a possible understanding and I'm not British.

[Doc Hudson]

'They don't like it up 'em Captain Mainwaring'
Brits on here will understand that.

Right you are indeed!

But I thought Stanforth was you handle Lance Corporal Jones.

[stanforth]

'They don't like it up 'em Captain Mainwaring'
Brits on here will understand that.

Right you are indeed!

But I thought Stanforth was you handle Lance Corporal Jones.

'Don't tell them Pike'.

[Idahoser]

another thing that stirs the blood, in fiction anyway, is the cavalry charge.

[Doc Hudson]

another thing that stirs the blood, in fiction anyway, is the cavalry charge.

A derned sight more stirring than effective against infantry armed with firearms.

i don't think a British Infantry Square was ever broken by a cavalry chare, or at the very worst it was a rare occurance.

Remember 'The Tin Red Line?"

At Balaclava, Sir Colin Campbell's 92nd highland Regiment smashed an attacking Russian Light Cavalry Brigade with three will timed volleys of rifle-musket fire. And those Russian hussars were some of the world's best light cavalry.

To my knowledge, the only truly effective cavalry charges made in the last two centuries have been made against "savages:, i.e. Indians, dervishes, etc.

IMO, Wade Hampton and Bedford Forrest had the right idea. Horses are for transporting men to where they can most effectively fight on foot.

[Cliff]

I seem to remember something about when the British were fighting the Scottish Highlanders who were rather mad as the british wanted to take over their country, the method of battle for the Highlanders was a wild screaming mad attack straight at the british battle lines. They could over come the british lines by brute force, using their swords and shields. The british commander finally realized he needed new tactics. He drilled and trained his units to use their bayonets by thrusting not at the attackers coming at them face on rather stab with the bayonet into the attacker coming next to or beside the man attacking the british soldier head on, going around the shield, each soldier would do it this way. It overcame the Scottish method of smashing their opponents with the shields and then following up with a sword thrust. No matter it took some brass to stand there and face such an attack. FWIW

[stanforth]

Obviously the lesson was not lost on the Scots.

[Doc Hudson]

The Highland Charge was supposedly the most effective infantry attack of it's day. But when they finally faced Stinkin' Billie's well trained, bayonet equipped infantry at Culloden, their pistols, shields and broadswords just couldn't carry the day.

(BTW, in it's classic form, the Highland Charge opened with a bagpipe "serenade" intended to shake the enemy' nerve and stir the hearts of the Scots.
Then with pipes skirling and war cries ringing, the Scots would advance at a trot. At about 20 yards, they'd pause and give one or two volleys with pistol, immediately followed by a flat out charge of screaming Highlanders with a spiked targe (small round leather covered shields) on one arm and a great basket-hilted double-edged broadsword in the other. The Highland Chare broke more infantry squares than cavalry. It was not uncommon for poorly trained enemies to flee the field without returning fire or exchanging a blow/)

Culloden was a slaughter for the Highlanders, one of my own ancestors fell there. But what followed was nothing short of genocide. Wounded Scots were shot, bayoneted or hanged. Then came the burnings of farms, the murder of women, children and other non-combatants, hangings or shootings without trial or at the order of a drumhead court martial wer the order of the day and the wholesale deportation of the population of vast regions of the Highlands (by courtesy of which some of my surviving ancestors arrived in North America).

It has always puzzled me. I've never understood why the English behaved so brutally in Scotland and Ireland when in the rest of their Empire they ruled compassionately and gently. Even in conquest or reconquest they didn't slaughter Indians or Africans with half the zeal they demonstrated in Scotland and Ireland.