357 Levergun vs 30 Carbine vs AR15 - Which for HD?

[mister2]

Of the various scenarios I have heard of home invasions, the most troubling are the ones perpetrated by gangs on the wrong house. If I was that "wrong house", I could expect multiple assailants with possible body armor. This, from my CCW instructor gleaning from local PD reports.

Most responses "expect" one or maybe two assailants, at the most, who will run when the shooting starts. That "expectation" might well just be the achilles heel to this discussion.

Therefore the original premise reads very hypothetical (and perhaps unrealistic) to me. I would choose the AR, nevertheless.

[COSteve]

Of the various scenarios I have heard of home invasions, the most troubling are the ones perpetrated by gangs on the wrong house. If I was that "wrong house", I could expect multiple assailants with possible body armor. This, from my CCW instructor gleaning from local PD reports.

Most responses "expect" one or maybe two assailants, at the most, who will run when the shooting starts. That "expectation" might well just be the achilles heel to this discussion.

Therefore the original premise reads very hypothetical (and perhaps unrealistic) to me. I would choose the AR, nevertheless.

The original premise I wrote doesn't mention anything at all about home invasions. To refresh your memory,

"Assume:
A) you reload so you can tailor your ammo to your choice
B) your state has laws that allow for deadly force inside your home so any of the 3 are legal options
C) you have a std style and size home in a normal neighborhood.

Given these three, and only these three, which would you pick for your HD choice and why would you choose that one?"

[alnitak]

Seriously, to stay within the constraints of the thread and original posters comments, I would grab the m1 first of the two types I own. I think with the soft points, it is a force to be reckoned with and I kinda disagree about the reloading. I don't have to reload a mag, just drop the one in it and put in another. I have several on the M1 as dressed. alot quicker to load 10, 15, or even 30 rounds than single loading the lever rifle. no need to shoot a magazine empty either, just reload in any down time that occurrs.

I agree with Griff that perhaps the handgun is the best bet for inside shooting and I don't find fault in a shotgun either. both may be better than a rifle indoors though the M1 is a real good contender.

I have to agree. I also have all three, and the convenience, speed (into action, follow-up shots and reloads), reliability (no worry of short strokes), easy aiming and shooting (in case I'm not the one using it), and capacity all point to the M1 with HP ammo. With kids in the house, I am concerned about over-penetration of the AR.

I love my leverguns, but in a fight, I'll take a semi-auto with 20- or 30-round mags any time.

[gak]

I voted M1 Carbine earlier and am sticking with that as my #1 go-to (amongst "rifles"), but have all formats except the AR. However, +1 to another's suggestion IF you use a .357 lever, stoked with well constructed .38s. At the ranges we're talking about, it's going to provide all the "pow" you need, reduce over-penetration risk, and gains you an extra round. Ditto the .44 Mag/.44 Special relationship--shoot Specials, Make sure yours feed reliably first though. Many .357 (and .44 Mag) levers I've run across need to be worked a bit to feed the shorties reliably.

[mister2]

"357 Levergun vs 30 Carbine vs AR15 - Which for HD?"

If home invasions are not covered in a "HD" discussion, then I apologize for misstating the original premise. The kicker is that "HD" is not the same everywhere. In AZ, perps may be illegals with Kalashnikovs.

[Markbo]

If I had two of each, I'd sell the one I was least fond of and replace it with a Mossberg 12 ga shotgun with a Surefire light forend. In any home defense secenario I can imagine I will never have to shoot 100 yards (I would consider that offensive) so a rifle is a non choice unless speaking about TEOTWAWKI or Zombies and I just don't believe in those scenarios.

If I get attacked by AK toting tribes I am probably screwed already. All my rifles in whatever form probably won't hold off the SWAT Team or throngs of wasteland bad guys.

[Old Ironsights]

"357 Levergun vs 30 Carbine vs AR15 - Which for HD?"

If home invasions are not covered in a "HD" discussion, then I apologize for misstating the original premise. The kicker is that "HD" is not the same everywhere. In AZ, perps may be illegals with Kalashnikovs.

That's what the Claymores are for...

[Machado]

I feel that rifles are too big to manoeuver in the confines of a home. I heard that two or three torso shots with the lowly .22 LR HP hi-speed can perform wonders... but my trigger-happy wife keeps a .45 ACP M-1950 S&W at hand, stoked with very soft swaged lead bullets at ~750 fps.
Antonio

[rodeo kid]

Well, of those three I would use the ar. I don't get all this perception stuff favoring the lever. If someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night I assume they will harm my wife and I. My job is to prevent that. If I have to I will use my firarms to end the threat. It matters not if I use a kitchen knife, baseball bat or firearm, my family and I have survived! Either you acted legally or you did't! What you use to defend your life should be beside the point. My wife has a Ruger LCR with Crimson trace Laser grips in her nightstand. She does well with it. I have my Colt Python in my nightstand. In each front corner of my closet I have a 12Ga coachgun(Pioneer arms) and a .223 folding stock AK-47(folded very compact and handy). Depending on available time frame(if intruder is already in my bedroom, Python. If I have warning(dog-I have a good dog, he sleeps next to my bed, or noise of house entry I grab the coach gun fire both barrels, then grab AK for any further threat. I have practiced(neighbor banging on door and yelling) with and without the dog. Using empty weapons(I knew he would come that night but not what time) I can get the python and fire in 2-4 seconds from waking, and get the shotgun in 4-6 seconds. I know this is not perfect training but does simlulate what might happen. God Bless.

[firefuzz]

For those of you that are operating under the precept that .223/5.56, especially in a HP/SP bullet, is an over-penetrator in walls, one of the reasons that a lot of PD's are changing from a 9mm sub-gun to a .223/5.56 platform for their TAC team guns is that the .223/5.56 penetrates walls LESS than the 9mm. The light, high-velocity bullets are more likely to fragment and even in a FMJ configuration shed their energy faster than the 9mm and certainly more than a .357 mag.

Rob

[MistWolf]

My first pick is the AR. It's LESS likely to over penetrate than the others, is light, handy, simple to use and hits hard at the distances found inside my house. I can reliably mount a flashlight on it. Ammo is easy to find and available in wide variety. It's recoil is light and controllable. Built right, they are very reliable. Best of all, I know I can hit with it.

The M1 Carbine is reliable, light, and accurate enough. I don't have much confidence in it's terminal performance but don't expect me to stand down range and bare my chest to it! Ammo in my neck of the woods is hard to find and it's a toss up as to what it'll be when it can be had. Still, if mine were loaded with soft points, I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

One thing I like about semi autos is that they are easier to use one handed than any of the manually operated actions, if the need arises.

I can't say much for Rossi lever action rifles but experiences with other Rossi firearms has taught to not trust them. At the very least, I'd have to put a pile of rounds through it and fix any problems that cropped up. It would have to prove itself 100% before I'd use it to protect me & mine. The 357 Magnum is an excellent choice of calibers. If 38 Specials will feed without a bobble, they will also work

[willygene]

wolf that's why i don't own anymore ar's they are less reliable than a good levergun it may shoot faster than my lever but i ain't got to clear jams either and i can work my 16 inch trapper with one hand just fine. and in the home if you didn't get it done in 8 or 10 rounds a 30 round mag ain't gona help.

[firefuzz]

[quote="willygene"]that's why i don't own anymore ar's they are less reliable than a good levergun
quote]

My opinion differs from yours. I recently helped teach and participated in a LEO rifle school and fired one of my AR's over 1000 rds in 3 days with nothing but a little lube applied to the bolt every so often, no jams. But everyone has a right to what they believe.

Rob

[BobM]

Right now I'd choose the AR as I've got a lot more time on it than the levergun. However, after I retire I'll strongly consider using my .357 Winchester Trapper assuming I can afford to shoot it enough to get proficient enough.

[1894cfan]

While the .223/5.56x45 may be good for some purposes, I'd rather stake my life on a .30 Carbine with Soft/hollow points in a semi-auto (ie. M1 30 Carbine) or a .357 lever/revolver! YMMV

[Ben_Rumson]

Here's a link to the 223 & 30 Car. topic
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... ntent;col1

SHOOTERS SEEKING A HIGH-PERFORMANCE SPG2453 TACTICAL CARBINE WITHOUT A HIGH-TECH PRICE TAG ARE REDISCOVERING THIS VERSATILE, VINTAGE FIREARM.

Police agencies and armed citizens need a good long arm to supplement their handgun for defensive purposes. There are very few situations where a person is better off defending himself with a handgun than a good long gun, if the latter is available.
Here the definition of long gun is a shoulder-fired weapon like a rifle, carbine, submachine gun, assault rifle or shotgun. There is a readily available, often overlooked long gun that is superb for this purpose that can out-perform most of its high-tech, expensive competition -- the M1 carbine.
In recent years the traditional shotgun has been losing favor with both police and civilians for defensive use. The reasons for this include excessive recoil, a high degree of proficiency in operation, potential collateral damage from the buckshot pattern, and the limited effective range with buckshot.
In answer, many departments, individual officers and armed civilians have turned to semi-automatic rifles or carbines in either pistol calibers or .223 for use as tactical long guns. Some law enforcement agencies have turned to submachine guns.
All of these guns offer improved ballistic performance and practical accuracy over a handgun. However, none of the pistol-caliber carbines or submachine guns are nearly as effective as the old and often unfairly maligned .30 Ml carbine.
With proper ammunition, the M1 carbine can easily compete in effectiveness with .223-chambered weapons out to at least 150 yards, and few police or civilians have any business shooting at anybody farther away than that.
In addition, the M1 carbine weighs only 5 1/2 lbs., making it a pound or more lighter than most of its competition, including even the pistol-caliber carbines, and considerably lighter than many like the UZI submachine gun at 8.8 lbs. or the M16A2 at 7.9 lbs.
Born Far Combat
The M1 carbine has many other assets as well. It has superb reliability under the worst field conditions. Its accuracy exceeds that of virtually all the pistol-caliber carbines and submachine guns on the market and is comparable with that of many of the semi-automatic .223 rifles.
Another huge advantage for the M1 carbine is that, unlike most modern firearms, it has pre-ban high capacity 15- and 30-round magazines readily available in quantity at very modest prices. The same holds true for spare parts and accessories.
Ballistically, the M1 carbine's little .30 Carbine cartridge packs about 2.5 times the kinetic energy of a standard .45 ACP or 9mm load fired from a pistol. This is solidly in the energy territory of the .44 Mag. revolver. Indeed it has only 90 ft./lbs. less energy at the muzzle than the Russian 5.45x39mm cartridge and is only a little farther behind the .223 when fired from 14.5" or 16" barreled carbines.
Options And Tactics
Although a cartridge's muzzle energy is not the sole criterion for measuring its effectiveness, it is a good indication of the cartridge's potential if it is loaded with properly designed expanding bullets. With military-type FMJ bullets, the .30 Carbine will drill right through car bodies and such.
This capability is highly desirable to police officers in many situations. When the .30 Carbine cartridge is loaded with expanding bullets, its effectiveness as a manstopper increases exponentially. One police unit used M1 carbines loaded with JSPs in several shootings. They found the carbines to be extremely effective. Quoting one of their more experienced officers about the results from shootings with a .30 Carbine using expanding bullet ammunition, "We never had to shoot anyone twice."
Out to at least 150 yards, the .30 Carbine cartridge usually makes a more serious wound than does the .223, .308 or .30-'06, when the latter are used with FMJ bullets. It is also greatly superior to any of the common defensive pistol rounds fired from a handgun or carbine, even when the latter uses hollow point ammunition.
Even the FMJ .30 Carbine load is far more effective than is commonly thought. After interviewing many veteran M1 carbine users from World War II, Korea and Vietnam, we found that the vast majority of these soldiers found the M1 carbine to be quite effective even with GI ball ammunition.
One former Marine who saw extensive combat with the MI carbine in the Pacific in World War II was quite emphatic that the little gun and its cartridge were effective in the close-range combat that he experienced. He also stated that he greatly preferred the M1 carbine to the Garand for that type of fighting because of its much lighter weight, shorter length and higher magazine capacity.
First-Hand Experience
Another veteran M1 carbine user interviewed was a U.S. Army Special Forces adviser in the early days of the Vietnam War. He had advised indigenous units armed almost exclusively with M1 carbines, and used the gun extensively himself in combat. He stated that the M1 carbine was very effective in the jungle combat that they typically experienced. Interestingly, he said that when M16s eventually replaced the M1 carbines, he found that the new gun offered little if any significant advantage in effectiveness over the older M1 carbines.
Probably the most authoritative account of the effectiveness of the M1 carbine in real combat comes from the superb book Shots Fired In Anger by John George. George served as a company grade officer in World War II in the famous Merrill's Marauders, operating behind Japanese lines. George was a highly experienced and successful service rifle competitor, shooter and hunter before the war, so all of his writing is from the perspective of someone highly knowledgeable about guns.
The M1 carbine was his primary weapon in the Marauders. The light weight of the carbine and its ammunition made it ideal for troops like the Marauders that carried all their supplies and equipment with them and were re-supplied by airdrops. His book covers several instances where he personally used or observed M1 carbines employed with great effect.
George reports, "The M1 carbine turned out to be the ace weapon of the war, as far as I am concerned. It was light and handy, powerful, and reasonably accurate ... The cartridge was powerful enough to penetrate several thicknesses of helmet, and to perforate the plates of the Japanese bulletproof vest, which would only be dented by .45 auto slugs. It was flat shooting enough to have practical accuracy at more than 200 yards ... For many types of offensive fighting, such as sneak raids and infiltration tactics, it was often superior even to the M1 (Garand), penetration being the only point of difference."
Full-Auto Follies
Late in World War II a selective-fire version of the M1 carbine was introduced as the M2 carbine. These saw little use in World War II, but were extensively used in Korea. Many of the accounts about the ineffectiveness of the .30 Carbine round come from improper and ineffective use of the M2 carbine on full auto.
Typically, the soldier or Marine dumped an entire magazine on full auto at a charging enemy with little or no effect. The probable truth is that in most instances it was ineffective because he simply missed. When firing the M2, if the first shot does not hit, none of the following shots will hit either, because the weapon will quickly climb off target, particularly with a long burst. The idea that anyone could absorb a magazine full of .30 Carbine bullets through the chest and keep coming is a myth born of bad shooting.
One must remember that these accounts are all about the M1 or M2 carbine using standard GI hardball ammunition. When this weapon is used with modern expanding bullets, its effectiveness against soft targets is increased considerably. One of the best .30 Carbine loads is the Winchester HSP. It is very accurate, feeding and expanding superbly and reliably.
A Cost Effective Warrior
An important asset of the Ml carbine is that two or three M1 carbines can be purchased for the price of one AR-15 or MP5 submachine gun. An affordable M1 carbine is worth more than all the expensive state-of-the-art rifles that you do not have when you need them, because you cannot afford them.
Something else in the Ml carbine's favor compared to all the submachine guns and rifles based on military assault rifles, is that it is relatively innocuous looking. Police do not like to be perceived as storm troopers, and the M1 carbine is much less likely to cause that impression than an AR-15 or an MP5,
The Ml carbine is too good a gun to be overlooked. Several hundred thousand of them are in circulation in the U.S., and many can be purchased at very reasonable prices. Israeli Arms International (IAI) and Springfield Inc. are currently offering excellent M1 carbines made to GI specifications using surplus military M1 carbine parts. Many more surplus Ml carbines are standing offshore, waiting to be imported into the U.S. under a favorable political climate.
For defensive fighting purposes typically encountered by police and armed civilians, an AR-15 or one of its better clones is perhaps preferable to the Ml carbine, if both are used with expanding bulleted ammunition. However, the Ml carbine with expanding bullet ammunition is more effective than any .223 rifle loaded with GI handball or any submachine gun or semiautomatic pistol-caliber carbine on the market. The Ml carbine is that good!

[Rexster]

.357 lever rifle is my choice, of the three listed choices. The M1 Carbine is not a good lefty rifle, and the AR15 is just too vertical, with a non-intuitive (for me) safety lever. OTOH, a lever rifle works very well for me, and its slimness is a desirable trait.

This does not mean I am stuck on lever rifles for HD/SD purposes. I favor the Mini-14 Ranch Rifle for such tasks.

[gak]

Rexster said:
"...The M1 Carbine is not a good lefty rifle..."

---
I am a lefty also and have enjoyed my Inland for 40+ years without issue.

[kimwcook]

I'll take the AR as my first choice of the choices given. Carried it in the Corps and as an LEO (still do). Reliability is a non issue and I can put mucho rounds on target about as fast as I can pull the trigger. Using Hornady TAP over penetration is another non issue. I love my leverguns, but for an unknown firefight I'll take my AR.

[MrMurphy]

I would take "any of the above" but the AR, M1 and then levergun in descending order by choice.


I've got years of training on the AR. I used to carry one for a living and have several thousand room/building/aircraft/other small enclosed area entries with an M4 carbine or other automatic weapon issued at the time (typically either M4, M4 with M203 or M249).

Having worked on the manufacturer end, and having worked with and served with everyone ranging from Joe the E-3 to the very highest tier or special operations troops, all of whom in their time killed (recently) lots of bad guys with 5.56, I have no problems with terminal performance. Never ended up pulling the trigger myself though a few times it got umm "real interesting". Especially with softpoint loads the 5.56 will outperform both the .30 carbine and .357 and not overpenetrate.


It's more configurable and ergonomic, and it was my service rifle. I don't have to think about it.


The .30 carbine, having spoken extensively to a retired command sergeant major with an aggregate of 9 years in 3 war zones carrying the M1 carbine for 7 of those (Europe, Korea, part of 1st Vietnam tour) and various other unofficial places visiting during the interwar years (served on a general's staff and visited Vietnam during the French phase, as well as Israel in the early 50s etc) where he more than likely had the m1 handy......terminal performance except through thick winter clothes was apparently fine. He was not a frontline infantryman but in his day he swapped rounds with his fair share of bad guys and had no problems with it (or the M16 for that matter).

Jim Cirillo, who's killed more bad guys than probably half of us put together, was also a fan of the M1 carbine.


The levergun is quick to use, handy, but has limited capacity, is not particularly quick to reload, especially when you're on an adrenalin dump and hands are shaking. Having seen guys try to slam a big 30 round mag into a big mag well and take repeated tries under stress, loading one little slippery .357 at a time into a spring loaded gate is not the easiest thing to do.

All of them are extremely reliable when properly maintained. The AR platform, if reasonably lubed, will run many thousands of rounds without trouble. I have personally participated in a test fire where an AR fired (continously, as fast as mags could be loaded) over 2,000 rounds without failure before it got funky (surplus ammo, quite dirty). Considering it was a prototype, not bad.

Others have run 12-15,000 rounds without cleaning at all, just lube, through various modern production ARs without problems. And that is under field conditions, not a dry, indoor range. Logged, tested and under observation.

I've personally taken a rack-safed, totally dry, no lube in the least M16A2E3 and put 14 mags of blanks, which are notorious for making ARs jam due to low gas pressure and extra fouling, and it didn't hiccup once. I was running around playing OPFOR for a deploying unit, and did multiple 20 or 30 round mag dumps on full auto (it was a full auto E3 variant, not burst) as well as a lot on semi, while running around in the brush in the Italian countryside playing "insurgent". I fully expected it to be jamming a lot on blanks, but not once in a double full ammo load.

Except in conditions which would make any other weapon (even an AK) jam, the M1 carbine will also hold up well.




The AR, if at all possible, would have an Aimpoint on it. I shot irons for 20 years. The Aimpoint runs for 50,000 hours and is faster, and it's always on. My issued Aimpoint M2 came NIB, with my new issued rifle, and aside from armorers occasionally turning it off for whatever reason in their tiny minds, ran on the same battery continously on, from December 2005 to December 2008. Especially for indoor/night work, not much beats an Aimpoint for speed of acquisition.

[gak]

My goodness, in the media lately there's been a lot of shells flying with the AR platform (M4s etc) in Afghanistan. Realizing this is just 'cause more front line/in combat media coverage lately and this stuff goes on otherwise 24/7, it's still impressive to see footage of. (A lot of 50 cal action as well). The admittedly brief glimpses though they are, it appears they've gotten sustained, full auto fire down to a reliable science now re AR reliability? (I realize this is OT to the civilian SD/HD scenario). I'm not saying this occurs w/o tear down and cleaning post encounter, but actual heat-of-battle use is something to see. Wouldn't want to touch one of those barrels inadvertantly!