Wonderin' if I'm Too Harsh a Critic

[Griff]

Some of you fellars are also Cowboy Action Shooters... and I have a question.

Over on the SASS Wire a shooter (who BTW is a multi-time Champion shooter, tho' still a college student -er hope for the younger generation) asks a question regarding enforcement on the normal Cold Range of someone wandering away from the loading table wearing his loaded, holstered revolvers.

You Make The Call

As of this time, I've made the last comment. The subject has gone 5, FIVE pages... Somewhere around the 4th page it veered off target and became a diatribe against cold ranges by a coupla fellars. Now... I've shot on both Cold and Hot ranges, and really have no problems with either... But, most competitive shoots are only held on Cold Ranges. From my very first introduction to them in the Navy, I've never even given the slightest thought as to the comments made on pages 4 & 5 of this topic.

Was my last post TOO abusive? I haven't received any "hate" messages, and the post is still there so apparently the moderators didn't think I went over the top, but... my friends, did I?

[kimwcook]

I think you're good, Griff. I agree. If you want to come to my yard and play ball, you play by my rules or you can leave.

[Modoc ED]

Well Griff, I read that thread and your last post did not seem out of line to me. Actually, it was right on.

In that thread on the last page, G.P.Cobb said:

So yall R sayin, the second amendment applies on the street, car and home, but not on the range? WHAT BS!!!!!!!!!

If ya really think about it, Cobb should be made by SASS to re-read the rules and write a composition on safe gun handling vs. rights. His way of thinking has no place in a public organized shoot.

[AJMD429]

Griff, I agree with your response, and there was nothing too 'harsh' about it.

I'm not familiar with the SASS rules, but the thread was interesting to read.

If I were at a 'new' (to me) type of match, or at a 'new' (to me) range facility, I think I would read and obey their safety rules, though, regardless! Unless something in the range rules struck me as totally unsafe (in which case I would likely just leave) I would abide by their rules, since it is their range, and they are paying the liability insurance, not me. You can't have 100 people at a shoot, all using their own 'personal' set of rules; it could lead to incorrect assumptions, and accidents.

HOWEVER, as one poster said, there are 'safety' rules, and there are 'safety' rules, and this would be the first kind (as opposed to, say, horseplay, or shooting from other than a designated shooting position, or when someone is downrange). My general habit in public (range, restaurant, or friend's home, wherever) is to NEVER leave a loaded gun anywhere that is not under my immediate supervision - which would mean that unless specifically over-riding that instinctive safety rule of my own, I'd rather the guns be in my holsters than on a table. Having said that, if the 'table' in question were in a well-supervised setting, where an unknowledgeable, or unsafe, individual would not be able to pick them up, I'd over-ride that internal rule and leave them set there, if that's what the range rule says (if I didn't 'trust' the other shooters or range officers at the range enough to do that, I'd not be shooting there).

You run into the same "Second Amendment" issue in other places, too. What if a restaurant says 'no guns' on their sign? Is that null-and-void since it is a violation of Second Amendment rights? I say NO, because it is THEIR property; they can have rules that say 'no guns', 'no shirt no shoes no service', or for that matter, say I have to wear a pink tutu, and pray to a Koran, if they want. Those aren't violations of my rights unless or until a) the government is involved (so it becomes not a matter of being yelled at or thrown out, but a matter of arrest for 'law' violation), b) force is used (i.e. I don't have the option of leaving), or c) (and here it gets 'fuzzy') if the place is a 'quasi-public' place like the only hospital in town, so I would be denied an urgent and vital service unless forced to abide by rights-violating rules. (Here 'rights' is real rights, like in the Bill of Rights, not foo-foo rights like 'to not be offended' or to marry a sheep). So, if a place of business says 'no guns', I have no problem with that if I can have the option of a) disobeying the rule, and the only consequence is getting thrown out if caught, or losing my membership, or whatever, or b) educating the owner about why they will lose my business to their competition. PUBLIC property, like ordinary streets, parks, and 'government' buildings, are another matter entirely, and without a clear and specific need, should NOT be allowed to restrict gun possession beyond enforcing 'reckless endangerment' type laws if some yahoo is waving a gun around. In some environments, like a courtroom, or an air traffic control facility, I can see a rationale for not having too many loaded guns around, but a non-hostile 'check station' should be there to accomodate CCW individuals who come and go.

Anyway, Griff's response is in line with our rules at the farm range; if you want the privelege of shooting with us, you will have to obey the rules we've made which we feel make it the safest possible experience. When my son was 12 years old, he 'reminded' several experienced shooters, military veterans even, of OUR range rules when they'd violate them (i.e. handling a firearm if they aren't at the shooting station), and they'd quietly obey, a bit chagrined that some kid of some non-veteran, non-cop, long-haired dude was telling THEM what to do, no doubt, but they understood the concept of 'range rules'.

[Old Savage]

Griff - reading your stuff is almost always an exercise in seeing what I should think if I had thought about it. I am with you Pard.

[Old Savage]

Always good to have a guy that sounds crusty wise and holding back on what he could have said.

[piller]

If you can't abide by the safety rules which are in place to protect you from other folks unthinking acts, then maybe you don't need to shoot there. Griff, you are not too harsh. I was on a gun range, down range pasting dots over my holes, when someone came to the range, set up and started shooting while I was still down there. The Range Officer got him shut down, and he had the gall to gripe about not being allowed his Second Amendment Rights. I then asked the Range Officer if I could use my Second Amendment Rights and shoot back at the jerk. The Range Officer looked like he really wanted to say yes, but he said "Sorry, but you can't do that because of the safety rules." The jerk started packing up and left with many threats to sue. No, you were not too harsh.

[bdhold]

Well Griff, I read that thread and your last post did not seem out of line to me. Actually, it was right on.

In that thread on the last page, G.P.Cobb said:

So yall R sayin, the second amendment applies on the street, car and home, but not on the range? WHAT BS!!!!!!!!!

His way of thinking has no place in a public organized shoot.

Griff, your point was lucid, polite and and correct.
I would be packing up and heading home if a guy at a range was wearing a loaded weapon along with the attitude that goes with that statement about the 2nd amendment. At the range where I shoot, it would be his last visit. 1st amendment doesn't even apply there - and it's their property, so they can enforce it as they choose - their complete intolerance for unsafe attitudes is why I go there, and feel good about taking my daughter there.

[buckeyeshooter]

Some of you fellars are also Cowboy Action Shooters... and I have a question.

Over on the SASS Wire a shooter (who BTW is a multi-time Champion shooter, tho' still a college student -er hope for the younger generation) asks a question regarding enforcement on the normal Cold Range of someone wandering away from the loading table wearing his loaded, holstered revolvers.

You Make The Call

As of this time, I've made the last comment. The subject has gone 5, FIVE pages... Somewhere around the 4th page it veered off target and became a diatribe against cold ranges by a coupla fellars. Now... I've shot on both Cold and Hot ranges, and really have no problems with either... But, most competitive shoots are only held on Cold Ranges. From my very first introduction to them in the Navy, I've never even given the slightest thought as to the comments made on pages 4 & 5 of this topic.

Was my last post TOO abusive? I haven't received any "hate" messages, and the post is still there so apparently the moderators didn't think I went over the top, but... my friends, did I?

Griff,
I just shot my second match last weekend. I did walk to the loading table with no shotshells. As I had loaded handguns and rifle --- I asked the officer what to do next, before leaving the table or holstering up. I was told leave the guns lay--- go to the cart and get the shotshells. My 'newbie' thoughts are these, I have about 100 folks at the range, 98 I do not know and they do not know me. ANY safety rules that are prescribed are just fine by me. I want to be safe and want everyone else to be safe also. I have solved my problem by getting a 25 round shotshell belt that I put on when I get 'dressed' upon arrival. I fill it and my stage bags before leaving the house. My gunbelt holds 25 handgun rounds too-- I fill it before I leave the house too. By backup on my body, even if I forget a stage bag-- I now do not have to make the trip back. A bit of thought and preparation to make me a safer contestant.

[gamekeeper]

I think you're good, Griff. I agree. If you want to come to my yard and play ball, you play by my rules or you can leave.

+ 1

[Nath]

Straight talk, it's going out of fashion. Pity.


N.

[madman4570]

Calling it the way you see it, without becoming abusive! I think your good to go!

[Rusty]

You got it right Griff. It all depends on the attitude of the offender.

Like my Sgt. told me once when I was a rookie, if you're gonna be in charge. THEN BE IN CHARGE! But you don't have to prove it to those that know it.

[Griff]

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the words of support. I thought I'd said what I felt, without all the normal "salty" language I tend to spout... and without going overboard. Seems as though it was a thread killer tho'. Which was a secondary intent.

OS, yes, I tend to think, "... what would OS say here?"

Again, thanks to you all.

[KSRtrd]

"If the blind lead the blind both shall fall in the ditch." Jesus

Its respect not friends that matters when dealing with acts that will cause great harm. I would have a black mark on my soul were someone harmed due to my lax behavior.