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I am new in this forum that I enjoy a lot as I am the happy owner of a 1903 win'92 rifle and a levergun addict.
I am in search of a win'94 30-30 and I noticed a rather unusual model :
Year 1970 (# 3330888)
scroll engraved as the antique model
black (blued ?) receiver
silver or white metal saddle ring.
gold lateral loading gate
photos can be found on http://www.nantesarmes.fr/nouvelles_pag ... 330888.htm
more pictures on this site http://www.armoccase.com/armoccase_rech ... _fiche.php
It is on sale "like new" at a reputable gunsmith who assured me it had not been re-blued. I am tempted put it is rather pricey, even for our european standards.
Do you have an idea which model it could be ? genuine winchester model or a clever refurbish ?
Welcome aboard!
It was made in Winchester's "lesser" period--early Post 64, including the scintered metal receiver, which is what looks a bit different under the scrolling, versus Pre 64 "real blue'ing" and later Post 64 (mid 70s+) guns. As the one gentleman said, generally no premium (should be asked, but sometimes is) for the "antique" features. although someone not in-the-know (or just happens to like the combination) might pay extra. This model is not that uncommon a find.
I seem to remember that when new they did not sell for much more than the standard model, and they were just an attempt by Winchester to encourage sales in the Post 64 period where there was resistance from buyers at the fall in quality of the 94.
They are I think like the '1894-1994' models that are standard production items from the Centennial year that have the roll engraved date, just an interesting variation of standard.
It is the kind of gun that I would not mind a nice example of on my gun rack, but which I would not be prepared to pay a premium for at the present time.
I think as '94's become collectors items now that they are no longer produced, production variations that were produced in low numbers even on fairly late model examples, as this is, will attract a premium, however, how much of a premium the Antique model which was produced in the 94's least desirable period, will attract, is unclear.
Thank you all for this information. I did mot know that this model was produced, sort of intermediary between base and antique.
Anybody recall what was this model name and the production numbers ?
Regarding prices, independently of the euro/dollar balance which evolves up and down between years or decades, here the prices of American (and other) guns are a lot higher, principally to the benefit of the importers, the administrative costs (customs, mandatory individual re-proofing), and finally on top of that the sales tax (VAT) which is close to 20%.
Cowboy shooting is getting cranked up, and as a side effect, even if this model is mot used in CAS competition, the 94 prices are high.
Pre-64 ones are scarce, they are mainly WWI relics (some were ordered in 1913 for the air corps and for balloon observers) and thus very expensive!
A good plain jane post 64 is at least 500€ and those at 400 that I saw were mostly fireplace top queens, hanged after a few shots, never cleaned and ending up with a heavily pitted barrel. In those cases the owner claims are always the same : it is brand new, I seldom shot it!
You will find also at 400€ some wrecks that are presented as "collectors". For me it is only premature aging!
I understand that this year of production is not the most likable due to the black chrome plating of the receiver.
Right now it seems to be holding up good after 40 years, but is it a matter of time for it do flake-off, or can it stay good provided proper care ?
The model you show is really beautiful, I used to say that the "antique" was not that desirable until I really looked at one with its nice engraved case-hardened receiver ang golden ring.
The model in my first post is slightly different, it has an engraved black receiver and silver ring, which I had never heard of.
The case hardening looks is nice, I may pass on this one and wait for a pristine real "antique" of the late seventies.
Unless it was produced specifically for the European market, that style of engraving was used on two Winchester variants in the pre-72 era; The "Antique" and the "Classic". The Antique and Classic both had color cased receivers, gold plated saddle rings and loading gates; their differences were the Antique was a 20" carbine and the Classic was of a 26" rifle configuration.
I think that receiver has been re-finished. There is a process to "blue" the scintered steel receivers of the '65-'82 period. But, I've been wrong before...
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
You mentioned '94s that were used by balloon observers... have you ever seen one of these first hand? I was just wondering if there was anything special that makes them stand out?
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9
It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
[The model in my first post is slightly different, it has an engraved black receiver and silver ring, which I had never heard of.]
Just because a rifle's in an unfamiliar configuration, don't presume it has to be a different model - It could simply be an assembly of parts from different models.
The real question is - assembled by WHO ? Winchester ?..................
The "silver" ring could simply be a gold ring that the plating's worn off - as on the one I sold for $300.
Whenever I come across a late-60's "black" receiver, the very first thing that comes to my mind is a finish that Winchester used on both octagon-barreled (20" & 24") 94 Classic's (which have the same engraving pattern as the Antique Carbine), and the 1971 NRA Rifle & NRA Musket - black chrome.
IMHO, if a black late-60's Win m94 receiver isn't black chrome, then it's been coated with any one of several coating products, some of which are "bake-on".
Rusty,
What I have read is that 2400 carbines were ordered in 1913 by the army airmen (the armée de l'air did not exist at this time) for defensive purposes, and was used by balloon observers and by 1915 attributed to automobile supply units (truck drivers, as opposed to hippomobile units, horse driven).
It was said also that these were originally made for Belgian Congo colonials then diverted to France with WWI being imminent. However so far as I know there is no record in Winchester archives.
We can see them sometimes at specialized antique gun shops or in classifieds http://www.naturabuy.fr/-WINCHESTER-189 ... 45484.html, or if you are lucky in the countryside some have slept for ages in old barns.
you can see one here http://tirmilitaria.heberg-forum.net/ft ... asc-0.html
The specifics are :
- belt swivels for a strap mounted on the left side but with saddlering not removed
- rear sight graduated in meters
You may ask on french forums like tirmailly http://www.tirmaillyforum.com there you have people there who know much more than I do.
and Welcome to THE Forum!