Case hardened receiver no longer pretty.

sdblazer · Post by **sdblazer** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:03 pm

I just picked up my second '94. It's an antique carbine manufactured in 1970. The thing is the receiver no longer has that colorfull luster, it is more gray/brown in color. I'm pretty sure it had the case hardened color because I have not seen any others with the same scrolling. I wouldnt think it would lose it's color over time ,would it? Been trying to upload pics but I guess they are to big........cant figure it out. Rifle still looks good though,especially next to my Trapper!

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:46 pm

Case coloring (at least the bone & charcoal kind) is not a very tough finish. The more its' cleaned, the more the colors fade and dull over time.

But, that isn't to say that they still are pretty, just more subdued. Uhhh, where's your picture?

sdblazer · Post by **sdblazer** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:15 am

Workin on the pics.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:34 am

sdblazer wrote:I just picked up my second '94. It's an antique carbine manufactured in 1970. The thing is the receiver no longer has that colorfull luster, it is more gray/brown in color. I'm pretty sure it had the case hardened color because I have not seen any others with the same scrolling. I wouldnt think it would lose it's color over time ,would it? Been trying to upload pics but I guess they are to big........cant figure it out. Rifle still looks good though,especially next to my Trapper!

It's not really an antique if it was made in 1970. To qualify as an antique it would have to date pre-1898. If it is truly a 1970 it probably have the sintered metal receiver and was probably blued but that sintered metal receiver doesn't retain the blue very well. They tend to go grey prematurely.
Now, if it's a 1907 it and was color-cased it will lose it because as Griff said true color-case is not very durable.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:35 am

BTW, Welcome to the fire.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:05 am

Winchester did make a model 94 carbine it called "Antique" from 67-70. It has some scroll work on the receiver and what I think was a liquid applied type of coloring to replicate case hardening. It is not very durable.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:37 am

I don't know how much my "Antique Model" made in the late 1960s has faded but I guess it has some.
Anyway welcome to the fire.

winchester1886 · Post by **winchester1886** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:17 am

Bought mine in 1965 first real gun I ever owned and still have it, wore it out once had it rebuilt, my mum took me to the big smoke to buy it we caught a Red Rattler, the guy in the gun shop wrapped it in brown paper with two boxes of ammo and back on the Red Rattler and home we went and no one battered an eyelid. Oh for the good old day's.

Aussie Chris · Post by **Aussie Chris** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:52 am

They are great looking rifles the 94 'Antique'.

Some blokes round here should do a little research before giving their 'expert' opinion on 'antiques'

Welcome to the forum

I love my antique, one of the best looking 94's in my book..

Chris

jlchucker · Post by **jlchucker** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:37 am

Most old firearms that had real case-colored receivers, if they were used often, had the colors fade into a brownish-gray. Check out some old Parker shotguns or old Marlins at some gun shows--you'll see that the mottled colors are mostly gone. That finish, color-wise, is not very durable. You find evidence of it on old Marlins, but my 1905 Winchester catalog doesn't even mention it. At least not that I've been able to find in the fine print.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:05 am

My gunsmith told me that exposure to sunlight can cause case-coloring to fade.

Told me that there's some brand of clear-coat varnish that can be used to protect it somewhat, but I can'r remember the brand.

SJPrice · Post by **SJPrice** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:19 am

It is called Case Color Lacquer. It is made by Galazaan and you can order it from Midway USA. It comes in 3 oz bottles and a little goes a long way. Since it is a Lacquer it has good UV inhibitors. It has a slightly amber tint to it and will make the Case Color appear warmer and more antique. I have used it in the past with mixed results. When I brushed it it looked good, but I much prefer the look I got when I thinned it slightly and used an air brush. It has been quite a while and I do not remember how much I thinned the lacquer.

JB · Post by JB » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:43 pm

I have one of the "Antique" 94's as well. The case coloring has faded a bit with time and use. The brass plating is pretty much gone from the loading gate and saddle ring.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:55 pm

Aussie Chris wrote:Some blokes round here should do a little research before giving their 'expert' opinion on 'antiques'

Make no mistake, Nate is an expert and he is in fact, correct in his statements. The OP's statement, "It's an antique carbine manufactured in 1970." more correctly should have been stated as, "It's an antique model carbine manufactured in 1970." I owned a 1962 carbine like his with a brass loading gate and saddle ring and while pretty, it certainly would never be considered an antique Winchester.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:10 pm

COSteve wrote:
Aussie Chris wrote:Some blokes round here should do a little research before giving their 'expert' opinion on 'antiques'
Make no mistake, Nate is an expert and he is in fact, correct in his statements. The OP's statement, "It's an antique carbine manufactured in 1970." more correctly should have been stated as, "It's an antique model carbine manufactured in 1970." I owned a 1962 carbine like his with a brass loading gate and saddle ring and while pretty, it certainly would never be considered an antique Winchester.

I remember those late model color-case 94's I just don't recall them being named the Antique model.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:31 pm

COSteve wrote:
Aussie Chris wrote:Some blokes round here should do a little research before giving their 'expert' opinion on 'antiques'
Make no mistake, Nate is an expert and he is in fact, correct in his statements. The OP's statement, "It's an antique carbine manufactured in 1970." more correctly should have been stated as, "It's an antique model carbine manufactured in 1970." I owned a 1962 carbine like his with a brass loading gate and saddle ring and while pretty, it certainly would never be considered an antique Winchester.

I think our friends from "down under" may not realize that there's a legal definition for an antique firearm here in the states as Nate was pointing out. Though I've seen them before, I also didn't realize they were called "Antique" models by Winchester.

Aussie Chris · Post by **Aussie Chris** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:37 pm

Fellas, just taking what we call 'the pi$$'. Hence:

I know Nate knows what he is talking about, that can clearly be seen by his posts and website.

No offence intended guys and sorry if anyone was offended.

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:51 pm

I always knew the case-colored carbine depicted in the photos as the "94 Antique" and said term, when typed in the search box of GunsAmerica or GunBroker, will in fact find them.

'Antiques' in the classic sense they are not; but I've always had an affinity for the things, all the same.

sdblazer · Post by **sdblazer** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:16 pm

Ok,Antique model. thats what it's referred to in my Blue book of Gun Values. BTW thank you all for your input. I'd post pics if I could figure out how to make them smaller. I also should add the rifle is still pretty. sdblazer

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:27 pm

I wonder if that wasn't one of the first attempts at a factory artificial case coloring. Possibly a cyanide process? The coloring in the pictures from game keeper and aussie chris both seem to be holding up pretty wells for 40 year old guns. I'm not enough of a '94 person to know whether the receivers were sintered during those years.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:39 pm

sdblazer wrote:Ok,Antique model. thats what it's referred to in my Blue book of Gun Values. BTW thank you all for your input. I'd post pics if I could figure out how to make them smaller. I also should add the rifle is still pretty. sdblazer

open your pics in "paint" hit image, then resize, make them 20 to 50% smaller, go to file, hit save.

no excuses now,

Arminius · Post by **Arminius** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:42 pm

FWiedner wrote:My gunsmith told me that exposure to sunlight can cause case-coloring to fade.

Told me that there's some brand of clear-coat varnish that can be used to protect it somewhat, but I can'r remember the brand.

Sonnencreme.

Sun Tan Creme

))

Nivea?

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:13 pm

[I owned a 1962 carbine like his with a brass loading gate and saddle ring and while pretty, it certainly would never be considered an antique Winchester.]

Then your "1962 Winchester Model 94 Antique Carbine" ought to be worth a HUGE pile of money.

That is, considering it's the ONLY pre-64 Model Antique Carbine ever made - the rest being prodiced from 1964-1983.

A pretty good trick.

.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:17 pm

Pete44ru wrote:[I owned a 1962 carbine like his with a brass loading gate and saddle ring and while pretty, it certainly would never be considered an antique Winchester.]
Then your "1962 Winchester Model 94 Antique Carbine" ought to be worth a HUGE pile of money.
That is, considering it's the ONLY pre-64 Model Antique Carbine ever made - the rest being prodiced from 1964-1983.
A pretty good trick.

<deleted>

Your 'quote' above is a misrepresentation of what I said. I never said I had a 1962 Winchester Model 94 Antique Carbine as you indicated you 'quoted' me as saying. You made that up, that's dishonest, and I expect an apology.

What I did say is shown on the first line, "I owned a 1962 carbine like his with a brass loading gate and saddle ring...". No where does it say that its a Antique model. In fact, to the best of my recollection, it wasn't identified as an 'Antique model', it simply had a case hardened looking receiver, brass loading gate, and saddle ring without any scrollwork. And yes, it was purchased new in the fall of 1962 by my father for my 15th birthday.

I guess the last laugh is on you now isn't it?

sdblazer · Post by **sdblazer** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:24 pm

Simmer class...Simmer...

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:42 pm

The cyanide process is a real hard case finish. the colors won't be quite the same as brought out in the bone charcoal method, but it is still real case hardening -- not "artificial" in any sense.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:53 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:The cyanide process is a real hard case finish. the colors won't be quite the same as brought out in the bone charcoal method, but it is still real case hardening -- not "artificial" in any sense.

All I've ever heard is derisive comments about the cyanide process as a "wannabe" CCH finish.

I'm not a metallurgist. I'm not an expert on firearms finishes.

Just saying that I've not heard anyone say that before.

Maybe I've been misinterpreting previous comments that were meant to convey that it's just not "traditional?"

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:34 pm

Up until just a few years ago, there was a local 'smith who was doing CCH on contract for Marlin, using the cyanide process. His colors ranged from gaudy bright to almost gray, with every combination in between...

But the surface is definitely "cased" in the Cyanide method...It is widely used in commercial jeat treatment, where just a case hard treatment is desired. One of the manufacturing shops I worked in, years ago, was making small parts under military contract, and many were subjected to the cyanide-bath process, to impart a durable outer hardness; leaving the underlying material softer and more ductile...

Most of those parts were made of SAE 1018, or 11L17 steel, which do not contain enough carbon for heat/quench hardening, but will pick up surface carburization from the cyanide bath, and that carburized surface is hardenable... a la Colt, Winchester &c... Although they used the bone meal/charred leather pack method...

airedaleman · Post by **airedaleman** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:24 pm

COSteve wrote:
Pete44ru wrote:[I owned a 1962 carbine like his with a brass loading gate and saddle ring and while pretty, it certainly would never be considered an antique Winchester.]
Then your "1962 Winchester Model 94 Antique Carbine" ought to be worth a HUGE pile of money.
That is, considering it's the ONLY pre-64 Model Antique Carbine ever made - the rest being prodiced from 1964-1983.
A pretty good trick.
<deleted>

Your 'quote' above is a misrepresentation of what I said. I never said I had a 1962 Winchester Model 94 Antique Carbine as you indicated you 'quoted' me as saying. You made that up, that's dishonest, and I expect an apology.

What I did say is shown on the first line, "I owned a 1962 carbine like his with a brass loading gate and saddle ring...". No where does it say that its a Antique model. In fact, to the best of my recollection, it wasn't identified as an 'Antique model', it simply had a case hardened looking receiver, brass loading gate, and saddle ring without any scrollwork. And yes, it was purchased new in the fall of 1962 by my father for my 15th birthday.

I guess the last laugh is on you now isn't it?

I hope you still have that 1962 pre-Antique. It must have been a one-off for sure...

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:04 pm

Aw come on guys! Let it go! No point in having yet another locked thread!

-Tutt

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:34 am

airedaleman wrote:I hope you still have that 1962 pre-Antique.

Nope, sold it after I got out of the Army because of it's poor action and trigger. Haven't been much of a Winchester 94 levergun type since then. I like the looks of em, but haven't found a single one that's had a decent action or trigger. The Winchester 92 versions are a whole different story though which is why I like a Browning or my Rossis so much.

sdblazer · Post by **sdblazer** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:27 pm

Ok,It's the top one........

sdblazer · Post by **sdblazer** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:38 pm

Here's a close up. Dont get me wrong, I still like the rifle!

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:56 am

I like your rifle too, wouldn't worry me if mine faded like that, I reckon it looks cool.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:48 pm

Well Blazer, I wouldn't say it's ugly. You've got nothing to hang your head about. what really maters is what happens when the rounds come out of the tube.

sdblazer · Post by **sdblazer** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:23 pm

Well, I appreciate that. It's a great rifle. I only started this thread because of the the color of the receiver.Just curious. I have always wanted a Winchester lever action and I scored two. I got the trapper from my inlaws,(for free) and bought the (antique model) from a co-worker for $150. Got them both in the last 2 months. I am not complaining a bit. Actually I'm proud..... they may not be pre '64, but I am cool with that, at least they both have saddle rings and no ugly safetys.

gak · Post by **gak** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:19 am

One thought is an "antiquing" of the entire gun--essentially gray out of the whole rifle, and get rid of the CCH look altogether.
Although it is a nice gun, it is Post 64 as you say and of an era that a) are not particularly hard to come by and b) have generally less $ value than earlier (and some later) models...Have fun with it! Someone, NKG or other, will chime in here as to what technique--vinegar, etc, etc., stripping/formula/process works best. Some have posted here or elsewhere some nice results on Post 64s such as yours. can't mess it up too badly; if so, redo. Ultimately, when desired results are achieved! If done right, I certainly wouldn't worry about de-valuing like *might* happen with a nice Pre 64, and most certainly would most Pre Wars, etc. I'd love to have a 94 to play with. Problem is, all of mine are earlier or otherwise too nice. But I do have a late Post 64/pre USRAC saddle ring Trapper with a few minor "issues" that's tempting me--complete "cowboy" treatment, I.e., new walnut Pre War carbine butt/stock, maybe ladder sight, etc.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:49 am

sdblazer wrote:I... bought the (antique model) from a co-worker for $150.

Bought it???? You stole that sucker!

That's a great find for $150!!!!!! I think its fine just like it is. Just shoot and enjoy it.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:15 pm

I'll give you $200

IMHO, that finish is the result of light oxidation - which is no biggy as it seems to have ocurred rather evenly over the surface.

Still a nice looking winny no doubt

Lawyer Daggit · Post by **Lawyer Daggit** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:50 am

An item should generally b e a hundred years old to be an antique, however the Antique winchester 94 was so named because of its so called 'antique' finish- a little bit of scroll work and case colouring.

From memory it sold for only a few dollars more than the basic model 94 and was no better made than the more plebian model- both 'featured' a lot of play in the lever.

sdblazer · Post by **sdblazer** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:38 am

Thanks Guys, I have had a few offers on it allready,like a new 10/22. No thanks I told the guy,I could always go down to Wallly World and pick up a 10/22. Not that simple with a Winchester anymore. I also have Winchester 67 .22 single shot that was my dads when he was about 12.He gave it to me when I turned 12,I'm 42 now and he has the gun back in his safe,I gotta get him to ship it to me, still looks new,accurate too.