OT - Question for Military folk..!

[deerwhacker444]

I saw this story about a Sikh who has enlisted and has been allowed to serve with his beard and long hair under a turban in order to keep from violating his religion.

Sikh Soldier

I can see at least two sides to this story.

1.) Great, let him serve. Uncle Sam needs all the help it can get no matter what his color or creed. He's truly an American and wants to thank his adoptive country.

2.) He's in the U.S. military now, he should act and look the part like everyone else. No special entitlements are given to North Americans or Jews because of their religion.

Since I haven't served in the military, I don't feel that I have any opinion to give.

But, I was curious as to what you current and retired Military folk think on the subject..?

[Blaine]

They now try very hard to let all religions have their sacred "whatevers" whenever possible. Even in 1972, in basic training, the DIs tried to take a Jewish Kid's Yamaka(sp?) and the Chaplin decended like the hammers of hell to get it back to him. Muslims have to be allowed to pray their required times a day and so on and so forth, as long as it does not interfere with operations, or if they can be accomodated.

[J Miller]

From a civilians point of view: I'm conflicted with this allowing all the different religions to worship as they see fit. In my opinion it may cause trouble in the long run. An army can't function if each religious segment is different. All soldiers should be treated the same and required to act and function the same in order to form a cohesive unit.

That is my opinion. It's worth what you paid for it.

Joe

[tman]

i would think that if you are willing to enlist in the military to fight for and possibly die for your country, that your religious considerations could be honored. after all, isn't that what's America's about ,anyway?

[Pete44ru]

Don't ask / Don't tell.......................

.

[awp101]

Not long before I got out, they came out with the vegetarian MRE's if that means anything...

The only issue I see with the Sikh is how his promask will work with the beard?

[KSRtrd]

Exactly right beards and battle gear do not mix. That bunch is ok with me, just that the beard and headgear isn't GI and that puts himself and his buddies at risk.

[Grizzly Adams]

"During training, Rattan wore a helmet over the small turban, which he doesn't remove, and was able to successfully create a seal with his gas mask despite the beard, resolving the Army's safety concerns, said Harsimran Kaur, the Sikh Coalition's legal director."

The Sikhs have a long and honorable history as warriors, and as noted in the article, still make up 30% of the officers in the Indian Military. I say good on him!

.....and the guys a dentist, so I doubt he's going to be leading the charge of the light brigade!

[Blaine]

Ok....Hands up....who didn't read the article? He's a dentist. BTW, Special Forces wears facial hair when necessary to blend in.....I sure wouldn't tell them to their face that they are not combat ready They used to tell us long hair would interfere with stuff, but women have long hair...strike two, gents.....The Black guys with shaving profiles didn't have any problems with gas masks...strike three......what's the problem???

[awp101]

Ok....Hands up....who didn't read the article?

Oh! Oh! Me! Me!

The beard was just the first thing that popped into me head. I'm aware the Saudi's use a different kind of mask that takes a full beard into account and the guys with shaving profiles in my unit never seemed to have enough facial hair for it to make a difference.

I wouldn't compare the SF longhair's in this situation though. Those guys don't generally carry a promask around with their blending in civvies AFAIK.

I think the Brits ranked the Sikhs right behind the Gurkhas AFA solid troopers.

[jnyork]

Sikhs have a long and honored tradition of military service dating back hundreds of years. They were the bane of the German army in WWII fighting with the Brits, as was the case in WWI for that matter. You could do a lot worse in battle than for the Sikhs to have your back.

This guy is a valuable member of our Armed Forces, both an engineer and a dentist. Wouldn't bother me a bit to serve with him.

[Rusty]

Would you rather have a French unit backing you up?

[Ysabel Kid]

No one has a right to serve in the US Military. As long as something doesn't interfere with unit cohesion and military effectiveness, if the military doesn't mind it, I'm okay with it. If it runs afoul either, the military should not be a social experiment for the left.

[Blaine]

No one has a right to serve in the US Military

If one has something that precludes legal service, no they don't...But.... qualified personnel are not turned down for race, color, or creed Rather un-American, is it not? Not only that, citizenship is fast tracked for those serving a hitch....those guys and gals are some of the very best warriors....

[gamekeeper]

Sikh warriors have fought side by side with British troops through two World Wars and I would be happy to have a Sikh on my side.
I think over here they are exempt from wearing crash helmets on motorcycles, I remember one old Sikh saying, if he didn't have to wear a tin helmet in the war he sure didn't see why he should be made to wear a crash helmet now.

[mklwhite]

2.) He's in the U.S. military now, he should act and look the part like everyone else. No special entitlements are given to North Americans or Jews because of their religion.[/b]

I know you asked for military folks, but here I am anyway.
What entitlements (physical) do North Americans or Jews have? Well maybe Hasidic, but the others?
Amritdhari Sikhs (they are members of the Khalsa - a religious order) are required to have Kesh (unshorn hair) and they keep it in a Dastaar (turban) per the orders of Guru Gobind Singh. (along with the other 4 "K's" the most often heard about is the Kirpan (knife))
Not all Sikhs have long hair. They are often called Sahajdhari, though that is not a favored term by all. That group could be in the military without special requirements made.
Would anyone know if any Hasidic Jews are in the US military?

[Hobie]

I saw this story about a Sikh who has enlisted and has been allowed to serve with his beard and long hair under a turban in order to keep from violating his religion.

Sikh Soldier

I can see at least two sides to this story.

1.) Great, let him serve. Uncle Sam needs all the help it can get no matter what his color or creed. He's truly an American and wants to thank his adoptive country.

2.) He's in the U.S. military now, he should act and look the part like everyone else. No special entitlements are given to North Americans or Jews because of their religion.

Since I haven't served in the military, I don't feel that I have any opinion to give.

But, I was curious as to what you current and retired Military folk think on the subject..?

This was permitted back in 1977 or so. I see absolutely no problem with it. "They" then stopped that reportedly because the beards didn't permit correct use of the protective mask. I really don't give a hoot. IIRC Jews can wear their yamaka as well. Lots of North Americans serve! Native Americans i.e. "Indians" did/do get some accommodations, mostly at the discretion of the commander. I had a chaplain.

[Lawyer Daggit]

Short hair in the military is largely a discipline issue and goes back to Cromwell's round heads. Militaries without the British tradition or model do not adhere to this requirement, and I understand the Dutch military and also Israeli's permit long hair without it adversely effecting discipline.

British special forces regularly have beards, as do British sailors. In terms of the latter discipline is maintained by having a regulation standard of beard. When not on operations British SF are I understand clean shaven.

As others have pointed out the Sikh's have a fine military and warrior tradition, and I would be happy to fight beside one any day. They would I am sure be an asset to the US military.

Another issue though is 'when in Rome do as the Roman's do'. Does allowing a Sikh with long hair and turban in open the flood gates and mean that a muslim female recruit who wishes to wear a Burka should be allowed to do so?. I think not, as the Burka impedes movement, visibility and personal recognition.

I think each of these matters need considering on merit. A person's religion should be accommodated by the military as long as it does not give rise to operational difficulties.

[JReed]

I can't speak for the Army but good luck getting that to pass in the Marine Corps. You can wear articles of faith only if they aren't visible in uniform or on your free time.
Hair cuts and shaves are as much about uniformity, discipline, and professionalism as they are for hygiene or anything doing with gas masks. We (the Marine Corps) have people from every nationality and religion in our ranks (even Amish and Mennonites) they all conform to the regulations it is part of earning the title.

[SFRanger7GP]

I never had any patience for the "individual identity, hyphenated-American" people. If you can't put America and your ODA/Team/Squad/Squadron/Platoon/Unit/etc. first, you shouldn't be in the US military. Its a volunteer force. I am not saying you shouldn't be proud of your heritage/religion/etc. I do question the priorities of anyone who is a (fill in the blank)-American. I never saw anyone who defined himself as a (fill in the blank)-American make it on a Team.

[BigSky56]

Iam with Jeremy,Wolf and 7 everybody got beards and long hair or nobody has them That might be how it done in india or GB but not the US I knew. The reason the SOG boys are wearing beards in afganland is the jerks cant ID them from a distance helps them in their job. danny

[ByronG]

If they can produce men of this stamp, who would not want them?



As a havildar ( sergeant ) Umrao Singh was the only non-comissioned officer of either the Royal Artillery or the Indian Artillery to be awarded the Victoria Cross in the Second World War. Umrao Singh won his award for valour in what all gunners regard as their near-sacred duty - defence of their guns.

By the end of 1944, General Sir William Slim's 14th Army was poised for a right-flank offensive against Lieutenant-General Sakurai Seizo's 28th Japanese Army in the coastal strip between the Irrawaddy and the Bay of Bengal. General Sir Philip Christison's XV Corps of four divisions was given the job. The offensive was launched on 12th December 1944 but fierce resistance was met by the 81st West African Division advancing down the Kaladan valley, every move forward being challenged by japanese counter-attack. The 33 Mountain Battery, Indian Artillery, in which Havildar Umrao Singh was a field gun detachment commander, was subjected to a sustained bombardment from Japanese guns. Singh's VC citation sums up perfectly his heroic action in defending his guns against overwhelming odds.



[ London Gazette, 31 May 1945 ], Kaladan Valley, Burma, 15 - 16 December 1944, Havildar Umrao Singh, Royal Indian Artillery, Indian Army


In the Kaladan Valley, Burma on 15 / 16 December 1944, Havildar Umrao Singh was in charge of one gun in an advanced section of his battery when it was subjected to heavy fire from 75 mm guns and mortars for one and a half hours prior to being attacked by two Companies of Japanese. When the attack came he so inspired his gun detachment by his personal example and encouragement to fight and defend their gun that they were able to beat off the attack with losses to the enemy.
Though twice wounded by grenades in the first attack, he again held off the second enemy attack by skilful control of his detachment's small arms fire, and by manning a Bren gun himself which he fired over the shield of his gun at the Japanese who had got to within five yards range. Again the enemy were beaten off with heavy losses. Third and fourth attacks were also beaten off in the same manner by the resolute action and great courage of Havildar Umrao Singh. By this time all his gun detachment had been killed or wounded with the exception of himself and two others.

When the final attack came, the other gun having been over-run and all his ammunition expended, he seized a gun bearer (a steel lifting bar) and calling once again on all who remained, he closed with the enemy in furious hand-to-hand fighting and was seen to strike down three Japanese in a desperate effort to save his gun, until he was overwhelmed and knocked senseless. Six hours later, when a counter-attack restored the position, he was found in an exhausted state beside his gun and almost unrecognisable with seven severe wounds, and ten dead Japanese round him.

By his personal example and magnificent bravery Havildar Umrao Sing set a supreme example of gallantry and devotion to duty. When recovered, his gun was fit to fire and was in fact in action again and firing later that same day.

Umrao Singh was invested with his Victoria Cross by King George VI at Buckingham Palace on the 16th October 1945.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I was a Tank Crewman 71-74. We had our own STANDARD on our vehicle. If you could not or would not meet our standard there was a long walk back somewhere. Never had to " Drop anyone off" as the undesirables were weeded out right fast.
About the time the head lice and other creapy infestations set in.. most troopers learn to keep it cut short. Then there was the knowlege that heat plus fuel = fire. Hair burns easily !

[the telegraphist]

I go with jnyork, gamekeeper and ByronG. They are fine soldiers and second to none, not even the Ghurka troops.
Treat them with respect and dignity and as we all do, will perform to their best.

[SFRanger7GP]

A Sikh armored unit had an opportunity to prove itself during the Battle of Mogadishu but decided not to leave the base to provide requested assistance until the night was over.

[MrMurphy]

Tanks+cities=dead tanks.

You can be brave and not be stupid. I was not there, though i know several of the US troops (special ops types) who were. I do not lay blame one way or the other.


Muslim women could not argue for burkas in uniform, because that is not a religious requirement (it's not in the Koran) but a cultural one. You don't see burka-wearing females (very often at least, there's probably a few) in Indonesia (largest Muslim pop in the world) or Turkey. It's strictly an Arab/Bedouin thing, though with the rise of Saudi-funded Wahabism it's spreading.

I think if he kept the beard short, it should be allowed. I was USAF, and before that, i went to NMMI (New Mexico Military Institute) which had half a dozen uniformed Sikhs (including one squadron commander) who had uniform-colored turbans and had to keep their beards trimmed, but it was allowed. Obviously not the US Military, but it can be done.

I've served with yarmulke-wearing Jews, Mormons wearing that special underwear thing they do, and others. Didn't have any trouble. In the case of the Sikhs, where if i remember correctly you have to be born one, it's not like every other guy out there would suddenly be bearded on duty.