Range Report: Old 3120

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CowboyTutt
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Range Report: Old 3120

Post by CowboyTutt »

Got to shoot "Old 3120" for the first time today. Made the drive out to BLM land an hour from my house. I found a lane that was good to about 250 yards if I needed it. All ranges were verified by a rangefinder I borrowed from a friend. It was a beautiful Ca winter day, with the temp about 65 where I was at. The only slight drawback was the target was not as well illuminated as I would have liked, but it was adequate. It was the best spot I could find today. She sure looked good in the mid-day sun.

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I set up a front bag rest only on a cooler, block of wood, and Hornady's 6th Vol.2. I rested the forearm way out front in the bag, about where you would attach a bipod if you had one. The chrono was about 12 ft in front of the muzzel. I set the target at 100m (109 yrds) knowing she would shoot high. The rear fixed battle sight is regulated to at least 200m, maybe 250m depending on the sources I have read. She makes some unusual sounds as I use her in repeater mode (the magazine can be bypassed with a switch rendering her a single shot). A "clack" as the lifter moves, followed by a "clink" as the new case is lifted just before being push-fed into the chamber. Very distinctive sound. The first time I pulled the trigger made me smile. :) A big push, but not painful. Enough to know you shot a real gun though! I did find the sights difficult to use however. The rear sight is narrow but OK. The front sight is an inverted triangle, and its pointy tip easily became blurry and hard to see. I tried painting the front sight light flourescent green with some water-based gun sight paint (it scrapes off with your finger well enough). This seemed to help some, but I scraped it off later as I realized the rear sight had some glare that was bluring the front sight. A permanent black marker I had handy seemed to help. Perhaps using both together would have been the best way to go.

Prof. Loudenboomer's ammo fed perfectly, and chrono'd very well if I remembered to follow the ritual of tipping the barrel to full vertical before every shot. However, as I looked at the speed of all loads throughout the day, it ranged from 1340 to 1399. Later, as I got into the habit of the ritual, his loads had an extreme spread of ten in a 4 shot group. :shock: :o There is real potential here!

For me, the greatest difficulty was just seeing the sights well. Here is a pic of what the target looked like at 100m, and a pic of about the best group I could come up with at the time.

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I then moved the target out to 200m. You can readily see how much trouble I was having with elevation by this time. My eyes were getting tired I think. You can see the one shot at the bottom of the paper, one in the 10 ring, and one in the head at the hairline.

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I think this gun has real potential, but I will have to work with the sights some more, or maybe have a custom front sight made. Its only a dovetail mount, and it would be easy to put back to stock configuration.

Afterwords, I broke out my CZ 550 in 375 H&H to do some load developement. I needed a powder with greater density and a little faster burning as I was running out of volume before pressure with the Ramshot Magnum and the 300 grain Barnes TSX. I also changed to a Winchester primer, which is hotter than the Fed 215m. I backed off 6 grains from a theoretical max load, and was a little disappointed by the velocity: only 2400 fps or so. Its OK though, I actually have some airspace in this load, and room to grow! Other than that, I just put 20 rounds through her to fire-form more brass. Here's my CZ again. She looks stock, but she has a trigger job and an 8 ounce mercury recoil reducer in the buttstock, which really makes her balance a lot better. Combined with the premium factory recoil pad, she is actually pretty comfortable to shoot. I need to hit 2700-2750 with a load using this bullet, and then I'll be happy. :lol:

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All in all, a very nice day shooting.

-Tutt
Last edited by CowboyTutt on Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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FWiedner
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Post by FWiedner »

Just trying to help...

:)
Last edited by FWiedner on Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by KirkD »

I enjoyed your report and the photos.
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CowboyTutt
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Post by CowboyTutt »

FW, thanks for posting my pics for me!


-Tutt
Last edited by CowboyTutt on Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by CowboyTutt »

I'm thinking of sending the front sight to Dave Clements. He has everything from "gold bar" front sights to "night sights" for revolvers. I suspect he could custom make me something that would work.

-Tutt
Last edited by CowboyTutt on Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ysabel Kid »

Excellent report and pictures!!! :D
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Post by CowboyTutt »

I think Old Savage would really like this rifle. It has recoil, but not enough to hurt you. You could shoot it all day, and not be sore. A very fun gun if the sights and ranges can be worked out!

-Tutt
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Post by PPpastordon »

Great report. Thanks for it, and the pictures. Ain't nothing like a real people - real report reading!
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Post by shawn_c992001 »

Nice rifles and pics!!!
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Post by Old Savage »

That CZ is a beautiful rifle. You may recall (and I have the picture) that you hit a 6 inch bull two out of three times offhand at 100 yds with it the day we were at the range.
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Post by CowboyTutt »

Old Savage, thanks for reminding me. It was a good day all around! The new fiber optic front sight on the CZ seemed to work well yesterday. I'm pleased. :D

Here are pics of the front sight of Old 3120. It sure is a well made unit. I'm not sure what sort of replacement front sight could be made as it would have to be very narrow and I refuse to permently alter the rear sight notch by making it wider.

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Post by CowboyTutt »

Holy smokes. After looking at my own picture, I see that the sight is marked with a line, a cartouche, and the number 20! I just put it under a magnifying glass, and the top of the triangle is in fact flat, but is ever so slightly rounded from wear and a small spot of the bluing worn off. I may have been getting a reflection off the top of the triangle, obscuring where it was at. I think I will try a can of sight black for both the front and rear sights. That might help a lot.

-Tutt
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Post by Old Savage »

Or cold blue.
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Post by JReed »

Sight black the mil surplus shooters best friend. I learned that leason the painfull way. I am not familiar with the 3120 what is it and what does it shoot?

Are you bringing it down in March? :D
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Post by CowboyTutt »

I think your familiar with it, JR. Its my 71/84 Mauser in 11mm I've been talking about so much of lately. I'm planning on bringing it down in March. Hopefully, by then I will be able to shoot it well. I did talk to Prof. Loundenboomer today, and he indicated that the rifles are probably not very accurate to begin with. But we both want to see just what this model's true accuracy potential is (he has one even nicer than mine!).

-Tutt
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Post by Ben_Rumson »

C T..You might get lucky and that sight dovetail may be standard Mauser width..In which case taller after market replacements are available.. Don't currently have one to measure though...
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Post by Andrew »

Tutt those are a couple nice looking rifles you have there. I really like that CZ, it has great lines to it. Very nice. :)
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Post by JReed »

I think your familiar with it, JR. Its my 71/84 Mauser in 11mm
Ah ok I know them only by what I have read of them. I look forward to seeing it in action. What is your load?
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Post by 45-70- »

Nice gun Tutt.
Try here for possible sights that arent permanent http://www.mojosights.com/

Also try these forums for all things milsurp-
[urlhttp://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums [/url]
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Post by CowboyTutt »

JR, the load is 28 grains of IMR 4198 using an RCBS bullet that casts at 398 grains. Actually, these cartridges were given to me by Prof. Loudenboomer since we weren't able to go shoot it when I visited him over the holidays. He sure is a nice guy. If you missed the thread, here it was:

viewtopic.php?t=2249&highlight=

45-70-and Ben, thanks a lot for the pointers. I wouldn't have known where to start. I'm going to try the original sights one more time after blacking them out. I'm saving this thread and your recommendations so I can use them later.

Thanks a lot guys!

-Tutt
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Post by JReed »

Duh no kidding I did read that when you posted it the first time. Dont you hate brain fanny burbs :oops: .
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Post by KirkD »

Any idea what the ballistics are on the original factory cartridge? I bought an 11 mm Mauser off a farmer neighbour when I was a teen for $1. The local shooting supplies store still sold ammo for it made by Dominion or CIL if I recall correctly. I seem to remember the factory load was a 385 grain lead bullet with a muzzle velocity around 1,300 fps (or was it 1,150 fps?). The only thing I ever shot with it was a Snowshoe Hare. Definitely too much gun for rabbits. Your velocity and bullet weight sounds like it is in the same ballpark.
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Post by CowboyTutt »

Kirk, thanks for asking. Original velocities were 1425 in the 71/84, slightly higher in the original Model 71, based upon the articles I have. Being smokeless, these loads have the same velocity as the original PP BP loads, but with a gentler, much slower pressure curve than Black. I've read some pretty favorable stuff about the Dominion ammo. Here is a pic of some original ammo I have that came with the rifle.

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Kirk, you would LOVE this stuff! I just realized after looking at more than one cartridge, that the ammo is stamped with the month and date of manufacture!!! :o

Here are pics as seen through my reloading bench magnifying glass:

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Man, it just amazes me the detail built into these rifles and ammo. I just hope I can make her shoot better for me!

-Tutt
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Post by 45-70- »

Tutt, you might check on that milsurp forum I gave you but I think that original box and ammo may be worth a pretty penny.
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Post by CowboyTutt »

45-70-, don't worry. I won't be shooting it. Ever. I got it for 50 bucks which is what the seller paid for it. But I'm sure it will go up in value.

-Tutt
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Post by KirkD »

That's amazing! The month and year! I think I shot off a total of 3 or 4 boxes of Dominion ammo back around 1971. I kept all the brass and sold it in the mid-80's for $30. Back then, I didn't know that all that brass as worth more than what the fellow offered me. Oh well, he went away happy and I was happy until I found out what one-fired 11 mm Dominion brass was worth (60 or 80 cases).
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Post by TedH »

Wow, those old cartridges are pretty neat.
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Post by CowboyTutt »

Hey guys, sorry to drag up an old thread, but I spoke to Mic McPherson tonight, and his insights were interesting enough to post.

First off, the Model 71/84 has a very long lock time. The striker is HUGE and moves slowly. I've seen cutaway pics, and would have to agree.

Secondly, just like Scott T. reported once about shooting Big Nose Kate in 45-70, the heavy slow moving bullet has a LOT of barrel time, so shot follow-through becomes critical.

The sights aren't great, and are difficult to see for vertical placement, but windage works well. This was appropriate for a military gun shooting at vertical man sized targets.

My bag placement probably wasn't the best for this gun. It seems to shoot very well off shoulder, so a bag posistion similar would probably work better than at the end of the barrel. As I saw during disassembly, there is no stock bedding technique of any sort, except for some clever barrel band tricks.

The gun most likely is capable of 2 1/2 inches at 100 meters, maybe 2 inches with a scope. So, I was in the ball park.

It apparently was customary for military rounds of the black powder era to be stamped with a month and year because BP absorbs so much moisture, it does tend to go bad quickly.

So, I will blackent the sights, and shoot her some more just as soon as I'm able!

-Tutt
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