Will a snow bank stop a bullet?

[Bill_Rights]

Here in the Wash., D.C. area we are getting it good, regarding snow. See other thread:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=24808

I wonder if 2-3 feet of snow banked up would stop a bullet, kinda like ballistic gel?

[Terry Murbach]

WHAT ??????????????????????????????? YOU HAVE NEVER RED ELMER KEITH'S USE OF SNOW BANKS FOR BULLET RECOVERY ???
GO GET TO IT !! QUIZ AND REVIEW IN THE MORNING.
DISMISSED.

[L_Kilkenny]

I think Terry was saying yes but in his own unusual way

Yes it will. A friend of mine and myself were plinkin cans a couple of winters ago using a drift as a back stop. Come spring I was able to go out and and pick up most of the .32M and 9mm bullets we had shot. The lead made it 5-10' into the drift.

LK

[Sgt443]

WHAT ??????????????????????????????? YOU HAVE NEVER RED ELMER KEITH'S USE OF SNOW BANKS FOR BULLET RECOVERY ???
GO GET TO IT !! QUIZ AND REVIEW IN THE MORNING.
DISMISSED.

Terry beat me to it.

[pokey]

WHAT ??????????????????????????????? YOU HAVE NEVER RED ELMER KEITH'S USE OF SNOW BANKS FOR BULLET RECOVERY ???
GO GET TO IT !! QUIZ AND REVIEW IN THE MORNING.
DISMISSED.

Terry beat me to it.

he's a quick draw, that terry.

[mohavesam]

Good question. Lets go find a good snowbank, you go over on the other side and I'll just load up this here hogleg...

[Nath]

Here in the Wash., D.C. area we are getting it good, regarding snow. See other thread:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=24808

I wonder if 2-3 feet of snow banked up would stop a bullet, kinda like ballistic gel?

I heard it's the worst snow fall since 1922! So was man causing climate change then?

N

[Buck Elliott]

Pushed-up snow will stop justabout anything, from .45 colt and .44 Mag, through .475 L. on up to .45-70.

Course --- some of 'em stop a little sooner than others.

[rafter-7]

38-55 250 grain @ 1300 fps it will take about 3 maybe 4 feet of hard pushed up snow from last week and there will be your bullet

more bank is needed for more wieght and speed if there is enough snow bank it will stop any bullet

^

[Bill_Rights]

Thanks for the stats on penetration distances.... Even though I can't drive to the range, it may not yet be time to start shooting into snow banks in my suburban neighborhood. It is still snowing, though, and we got one dug pile that's six feet high (at center) x 20' x 15' footprint. It'll double or triple before we get the turn-around area of the driveway dug out....

About Elmer Keith:
Being a total newbie, I had not realized what all he did before passing away. Here's one thing he wrote about shooting into snow, so says the 2nd-hand poster (posted years after Keith died) at http://forums.somethingawful.com/showth ... genumber=5:

Elmer Keith posted:
Short barrels have a tremendous blast and we believe some percentage of bullets leave the muzzle with their base deformed from the muzzle blast when barrels are reduced below 4 inches in length. You can remove a revolver barrel and fire the gun with cylinder only and catch the slugs in soft snow or oiled saw dust or other soft material. You will find the bases are badly mushroomed from the powder gases, after leaving the front of the cylinder. We believe the same thing takes place with high velocity hot loads, such as the .357 Magnum in full loads, with barrels under 4 inches in length... about 30% [of bullets] will keyhole on the target at 20 yards. We can see no reason for this other than too soft a bullet and too short a barrel.

As a total OT/side-light, I don't see why a short barrel would melt the back of a bullet more than a long barrel would, except that the tendency would be to load for that short barrel length with a faster-burning powder. 'Splain it to me if that's not why?

Anyway, I didn't see much of any web search hits to Keith shooting into snow, although I did see one where he made a "miracle shot" from prone, laying in the snow...

[Adobe Walls]

Howdy

I've seen .30 cal Ballistic tips that were recovered from snow, reloaded and shot AGAIN! I think that was a just because he could deal...AW

[adirondakjack]

Thanks for the stats on penetration distances.... Even though I can't drive to the range, it may not yet be time to start shooting into snow banks in my suburban neighborhood. It is still snowing, though, and we got one dug pile that's six feet high (at center) x 20' x 15' footprint. It'll double or triple before we get the turn-around area of the driveway dug out....

About Elmer Keith:
Being a total newbie, I had not realized what all he did before passing away. Here's one thing he wrote about shooting into snow, so says the 2nd-hand poster (posted years after Keith died) at http://forums.somethingawful.com/showth ... genumber=5:

Elmer Keith posted:
Short barrels have a tremendous blast and we believe some percentage of bullets leave the muzzle with their base deformed from the muzzle blast when barrels are reduced below 4 inches in length. You can remove a revolver barrel and fire the gun with cylinder only and catch the slugs in soft snow or oiled saw dust or other soft material. You will find the bases are badly mushroomed from the powder gases, after leaving the front of the cylinder. We believe the same thing takes place with high velocity hot loads, such as the .357 Magnum in full loads, with barrels under 4 inches in length... about 30% [of bullets] will keyhole on the target at 20 yards. We can see no reason for this other than too soft a bullet and too short a barrel.

As a total OT/side-light, I don't see why a short barrel would melt the back of a bullet more than a long barrel would, except that the tendency would be to load for that short barrel length with a faster-burning powder. 'Splain it to me if that's not why?

Anyway, I didn't see much of any web search hits to Keith shooting into snow, although I did see one where he made a "miracle shot" from prone, laying in the snow...

It goes to the effects of high velocity gasses. If a barrel is of sufficient length, and powder sufficiently fast, the muzzle blast is less a "cutting torch" at the muzzle than it would be if those gasses were allowed to sneak around the edge of the bullet base while at much higher pressures (and velocity achieved when the gasses are allowed to "jet" out of the gun.) Place a towel or similar next to the BC gap when firing a "hot" load. You will have a nicely cut up towel afterward. Place the same towel 2" in front of a 6" barrel firing service loads using fairly fast powder, no such cutting is seen, as the gasses are slowed relative to what they would be when escaping at peak pressure out the BC gap. Ya just get a nasty stain surrounding the bullet hole.

[Bill_Rights]

AJ,

Thanks. So it is not a matter of the burning propellant melting the back of the bullet, but the hot jets of gases, escaping to air at the base of the bullet when it exits the muzzle, act kinda like a cutting torch on the edges of the base of the bullet. OK, got it.

In your example with the towel, what id "BC". I took it to mean the gap between the cylinder and barrel of a revolver.

[adirondakjack]

AJ,

Thanks. So it is not a matter of the burning propellant melting the back of the bullet, but the hot jets of gases, escaping to air at the base of the bullet when it exits the muzzle, act kinda like a cutting torch on the edges of the base of the bullet. OK, got it.

In your example with the towel, what id "BC". I took it to mean the gap between the cylinder and barrel of a revolver.

BC gap = Barrel cylinder gap, yes. Since the BC gap is very close to if not right at the point of highest pressures during the burn (depends on bullet weight, powder burn rate and charge), the gasses that escape there are under the most pressure, and therefore escape at very high velocities once they squirt through the gap. They can even cut steel, as the folks at Ruger found out when they loaded certain loads in the .357 Maximum, ending up with "flame cut" frames at the spot right above the gap. This was the cause of them discontinuing the gun.

I had the esperience with the towel when I used a balled up towel on top of a sandbag to adjust height of the bag when shooting hot .45 Colt loads using H110. The towel ended up like swiss cheese after a while. yet when I experimented, draping a towel only a couple of inches in front of the muzzle of a 7.5" gun, I got nice clean holes from the bullet with a donut of black soot, no gas cutting around the bullet hole. That same gun ended up with the back face of the forcing cone eroded after a lot of those loads. I sent it to Ruger and they recut the forcing cone and set the barrel back a turn to fix it. That's also why ya end up with lead "stars" on the front of the chambers of the cylinder, yet ya don't get the same on the muzzle

Oh, not for nothing, but when doing load development or whatever in winter, over deep snow at the woods range, I counted on the snow as a lead stopper. Not for safety reasons, but knew it would, and went back after the snow had melted and picket up a pail of bullets for the lead pot.

[bigbore442001]

WHAT ??????????????????????????????? YOU HAVE NEVER RED ELMER KEITH'S USE OF SNOW BANKS FOR BULLET RECOVERY ???
GO GET TO IT !! QUIZ AND REVIEW IN THE MORNING.
DISMISSED.

A very therapeutic way of encouraging discovery.

[Old No7]

Not sure about bullets, but I found out this morning that snow will wreak havoc on pellets from your shotgun............................

Old No7

[Griff]

WHAT ??????????????????????????????? YOU HAVE NEVER RED ELMER KEITH'S USE OF SNOW BANKS FOR BULLET RECOVERY ???
GO GET TO IT !! QUIZ AND REVIEW IN THE MORNING.
DISMISSED.

A very therapeutic way of encouraging discovery.

I only have one criticism... it's "read".

[Terry Murbach]

WHAT ??????????????????????????????? YOU HAVE NEVER RED ELMER KEITH'S USE OF SNOW BANKS FOR BULLET RECOVERY ???
GO GET TO IT !! QUIZ AND REVIEW IN THE MORNING.
DISMISSED.

A very therapeutic way of encouraging discovery.

I only have one criticism... it's "read".

YOU ARE RIGHT !!! MY FIRST MISTAKE THIS YEAR. FOR THE WANT OF AN A....

[Seagoing]

Well I don't know about a snowbank, but here's what they said in my favorite movie.
" So a plank wall won't stop a bullet from a buffalo gun, but a dentist will. "

... And that's why Jake was on the run from the law in "Lonesome Dove".

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Anything will eventually stop a bullet given enough of it.
What you will face with snow is it packed.. wet.. or just that nice fluffy stuff laying there ?
This is what Avalanch crews test ( plus much more)for as they rate the stability of snow accumulation on mountain sides.

[Bogie35]

Anything will stop a bullet eventually, even air.

bogie

[Doc Hudson]

Y'all have reminded me of a murder mystery story I read in a Gun Digest or Shooter's Bible many years ago.

A man was killed with a rifle bullet that keyholed in his body and the bullet was traced back to the owner of a custom made rifle. The gunsmith who made the rifle got rather insensed that onw of his rifles keyholed the bullet. he also knew the rifle owner and didn't believe he'd committed the murder.

Turns out the rifle owner had a long time practice of shooting into a snowbank behind his house and harvesting the spent bullets in the spring-time.

The dead man's nephew who stood to inherit a fortune was a near neighbor of the accused. The only gun the nephew owned was a flintlock musket.

The gunsmith figured out that nephew had harvested a fired bullet and whittled a sabot that allowed him to shoot it from his musket. It was enough to kill his uncle but the bullet was not stabilized and keyhole, arousing the gunsmith's suspicions.

I'd not thought of that story in years. Thanks for reminding me.

[SteveR]

I shoot a lot of cast in to a pile from from my driveway, does a great job of stopping pistol and rifle, plus I can pick them up in the spring and recast.

Steve

[Bill_Rights]

'Nother noob question: What does it meanwhen a bullet is "keyholed"?

[adirondakjack]

'Nother noob question: What does it meanwhen a bullet is "keyholed"?

Hit the target sideways, leaving a "keyhole" in the paper. Most often due to undersized bullets or inadequate stabilization due to the wrong barrel twist for the bullet.

[Leverdude]

Here in the Wash., D.C. area we are getting it good, regarding snow. See other thread:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=24808

I wonder if 2-3 feet of snow banked up would stop a bullet, kinda like ballistic gel?

You'll need more than 2 or 3 feet but it'll stop them.

Not really the same thing but we had a brush pile ahead of a hillside we were shooting into at my place in NH awhile back. Had alot of snow that year, about 4' on the ground, so we werent doing much walking. Just shooting the cans & other things tossed into the pile. Everything from 22RF to 45/70 got shot into it. Was about 50 feet between the brush & hill and in the spring it was littered with bullets. Many near perfect.

[jlchucker]

Will snow stop a bullet? Yes, eventually. My area (Northern VT) gets snowstorms like that DC area got, on occasion. And lots more than that if you count the weekly 3 or 4 inch droppings. Along about mid-to-late March/early April, when things start to thaw, a trip to my gun range is usually a good source for cast bullets laying all over the ground between the 25 and 50 yard berms. I gather up what I find and recast the lead, mixing it with wheelweight and pure lead. These bullets (mostly hard-cast commercial ones) are found usually between 10 yd and 25. I doubt if they were fired at the backstops, but looking at them, they aren't deformed except for rifling marks. I think it's something that goes into the snow and stops before hitting frozen ground. If you've got a safe place to do it, you may try an experiment. Make a snowman and shoot him. See if you get penetration all the way through.

[KCSO]

Medium hard pack snow taked 8-12 feet depending on caliber and velocity. Light fluffy snow takes 20 feet or more. If the bullets hit ice chunks they can come out anywhere.

[getitdone1]

An easier way is to save plastic gallon milk jugs, fill them with water, tighten cap on and line them up in a row.

Shoot through them and you'll find the bullet--pieces, maybe--in one of those jugs.

How many jugs? After doing this with several guns from 22 LR to 45-70, 7mm Rem mag etc. expect 6-7 will stop about all with soft points. Full metal jacketed or hard cast may go through 10 or more.

20-30 feet from jugs when shooting to avoid getting soaked with water. Quite an explosion of jug and water--especially when shooting the faster cartridges--like 7mm Remington mag. Cake coloring or some kind of dye in the water would make it even more visible and spectacular.

I like to test cartridge and bullet performance this way.

Don

[win7094M1]

Reference the story Doc is referring to, it is in one of the Gun Digests from the early 1980's. I have it here somewhere.

[jlchucker]

An easier way is to save plastic gallon milk jugs, fill them with water, tighten cap on and line them up in a row.

Shoot through them and you'll find the bullet--pieces, maybe--in one of those jugs.

How many jugs? After doing this with several guns from 22 LR to 45-70, 7mm Rem mag etc. expect 6-7 will stop about all with soft points. Full metal jacketed or hard cast may go through 10 or more.

20-30 feet from jugs when shooting to avoid getting soaked with water. Quite an explosion of jug and water--especially when shooting the faster cartridges--like 7mm Remington mag. Cake coloring or some kind of dye in the water would make it even more visible and spectacular.

I like to test cartridge and bullet performance this way.

Don

Never underestimate the penetrating power of a cast bullet--hard or soft. They'll go through a lot more at sub-2000 fps velocities than one would ever think possible, and generally holding together a lot better than many jacketed projectiles.

[Doc Hudson]

Never underestimate the penetrating power of a cast bullet--hard or soft. They'll go through a lot more at sub-2000 fps velocities than one would ever think possible, and generally holding together a lot better than many jacketed projectiles.

I have not checked to see if the article is still up, but Garrett Cartridge Company's website used to have an article addressing a similar issue.

Garrett was looking at penetration vs. velocity. i don't remember the exact figures but IIRC, they found that .45 caliber ullets penetrated deeper with a velocity between 1500-1800 fps than they did with velocities of 2000 + fps. i guesss I'll have to re-read it.