Need info on Rossi M92 in both .45 calibers?

[Bill_Rights]

Hi,
I am new but have peeked in and learned some things from you folks in the past.

I see that the Rossi M92 comes in both .45 Colt and .454 Casull. I will probably never need the full power of .454 Casull, but want the option to go to ammo for the .45 Colt (Long Colt) that is "+P" or has higher chamber pressure than the SAMMI rating (what is it 15,000 psi?). I assume as a "modern" .45 Colt, the Rossi would let me go well beyond the "Cowboy" low pressure ratings for chamber pressure, right? But how high?

Another question: What is the rifling twist rate in the the Rossi M92s in .45 cal with 20" barrel length? (And is it the same for the .45LC and the .454 Casull chamberings of the rifle?)

Thanks, and I hope I am not covering old territory so much as to be bothersome. Just refer me to old posts/threads or suggest some search terms, if so.

Best to you all, Bill

[J Miller]

Bill,

Welcome to the forum.

To be honest I know nothing about the Rossi 92 in 454 Casull. But I can tell you that the Rossi 92 chambered for .45 Colt will handle any load you can feed a Ruger Blackhawk. According to Paco Kelly, Nate Kiowa Jones and others they are the strongest lever gun design chambered for the .45 Colt.

I can't help with the rifling twist either. Not much help am I ?

Joe

[Bill_Rights]

J Miller,
Contrariwise, what you said

the Rossi 92 chambered for .45 Colt will handle any load you can feed a Ruger Blackhawk. According to Paco Kelly, Nate Kiowa Jones and others they are the strongest lever gun design chambered for the .45 Colt.

is a great help. I do need to look up specs on the Blackhawk, tho'....

[J Miller]

Almost all the modern loading manuals have a section stating: ".45 Colt For Rugers and T-C only". Or something to that effect. Depending on the company these can be mild to wild and some of the loads can jar the fillings loose in your teeth.

I'm playing with a couple right now, no idea what they'll be like out of my Marlin and Winchester. Will post a range report when I get 'em shot.

Joe

[Sarge]

They are indeed strong. The limiting factor on mine seems to be its cavernous chamber because with really heavy .45 Colts loads, it stretches brass worse than my Vaquero. Still, it handles 300+ grain Keiths at 1350 without complaint and those will shoot through a whole lot of critter.

[Old Savage]

Mine easily handles 360 gr bullet at 1350 fps. Paco has loads in an article on the Leverguns site.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/ ... vergun.htm

Wow just me alone here at 4:58 on 1/31/10

[Pete44ru]

[Another question: What is the rifling twist rate in the the Rossi M92s in .45 cal with 20" barrel length? (And is it the same for the .45LC and the .454 Casull chamberings of the rifle?)]

All the Rossi Model 92's have a 1:30" twist - Welcome to the fire, Bill.

http://www.ampro.co.nz/products/rossi/rossi.htm

.

[JerryB]

I have a couple of Rossi 92 carbines, .357 and .45Colt. my loads for my old Colt .45 shoot fine from the carbine but I have shot some with 9 grains of Unique that is a good load. Read Paco's article on loads for your carbine, it will be a big help. Welcome to the forum too.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Hi,
I am new but have peeked in and learned some things from you folks in the past.

I see that the Rossi M92 comes in both .45 Colt and .454 Casull. I will probably never need the full power of .454 Casull, but want the option to go to ammo for the .45 Colt (Long Colt) that is "+P" or has higher chamber pressure than the SAMMI rating (what is it 15,000 psi?). I assume as a "modern" .45 Colt, the Rossi would let me go well beyond the "Cowboy" low pressure ratings for chamber pressure, right? But how high?

Another question: What is the rifling twist rate in the the Rossi M92s in .45 cal with 20" barrel length? (And is it the same for the .45LC and the .454 Casull chamberings of the rifle?)

Thanks, and I hope I am not covering old territory so much as to be bothersome. Just refer me to old posts/threads or suggest some search terms, if so.

Best to you all, Bill

Hi Bill,
Welcome to the fire. If you decide to go with the 454 version you will be limited to just three configurations. They only come a round barrel carbine 20" in blue or stainless and a 16" ss. The 45lc versions come in those configuration plus stainless, Blue and color-case and all blue octagon barrel 20" and 24" crescent butt-stocked full magazine rifles. Any of which will handle the +P ammo's.
As for the rate of twist, some feel the 1 in 30" is too slow but keep in mind this is a revolutions per minute thing and if you push the bullet faster it doesn't need to spin as fast. From the rifle length barrels you will gain significant velocity increases.

[Old Savage]

I in 30 is not to slow for a 360 gr. Very good accuracy at 1350 fps.

[Bill_Rights]

Thank you! I am duly welcomed.

Thanks for the 1 in 30" twist info. If it's worked all these years its gotta be good enough.

I did try to look up the chamber pressure allowed for the Ruger Blackhawk pistol, which would be similar to the TC Contender, Freedom Arms etc. pistols and modern, strengthened rifles such as newer Winchester Model 94 and the Rossi M92. BOY! did I ever step in it!

One problem is the chamber pressure units of measure: PSI (C.U.P.) and the newer piezo PSI. Both are (or have been) used by SAAMI and both legitimately have the "psi" units. It seems like, to this day, it is not settled in the gun world how to convert from one to the other for all cases: rifles cartridges vs. pistol cartiridges, short vs. long barrels, slow vs. fast burning powders and on and on. Since this is a forum on lever-action rifles and since you all have probably talked this out before, I decided to dodge the details of the issue and just quote psi ranges that should encompass both new SAAMI piezo PSI and PSI (CUP). I just kinda garnered and averaged from the references given below + a few Wikipedia articles. What I came up with was:

Max Chamber Pressures - hopefully encompassing both SAAMI PSI (piezo) and PSI CUP values (CUP = copper units of pressure)
.45 Colt (LC)....................................14,000 - 16,000 psi
.45 Colt (LC) Blackhawk/TC "+P"............23,000 - 29,000 psi
.44 Rem Magnum..............................36,000 - 44,000 psi
.454 Casull......................................50,000 - 60,000 psi

From what you all say, I can use .45 Colt "+P" loads up in the "Blackhawk" range in the Rossi M92 without hurting the gun at all, and I'll get really hard-hitting performance (partly, like Nate Kiowa Jones said, because of the long barrel). At least two of the authors below (Forker and Hawks) warn strongly against trying to make .45 Colt loads having pressure up in the .44 Mag range. The cartridge case walls on the .45 Colt are thin and not meant for it. If I want higher pressure, I must go to either the .44 Mag or the .454 Casull.

One more question: I hadn't really considered the .44 Mag. I want a rifle I can get "cream-puff" loads for, preferrably factory loads, for plinking, practice and new shooters AND get high-power hunting loads for, also factory loads. The .45 Colt comes in some really light, weak factory loads (cowboy action) AND can go up into the +P power range. All are available from the factory. The .454 Casull is overkill but can shoot all .45 Colt cartridges, weak through powerful. Of course, I know there are high-power loads for the .44 Mag, but are weak, light factory loads readily available for the .44 Mag as well? I know the .44 Special will chamber in a .44 Mag rifle, but is there good selection of .44 Special factory loads, for "cream puff" shooting? I never heard of the .44 Special till it was mentioned in one of the articles below.

References:
Bob Forker: http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satell ... Colt+Loads
Chuck Hawks: http://www.chuckhawks.com/high-pressure45.htm
SAAMI (probably old): http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm
Denton Bramwell: http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf
Terry Hart: http://www.chuckhawks.com/pressure_measurement.htm

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

It sounds like you don't plan to reload so finding down loaded 44spec factory may be a problem. Plus, some of the 44mag leverguns don't work that well with the shorter 44 spec. That's because all leverguns are length and bullet shape sensitive to some degree. Like semi-auto handguns, they can be picky about what they will run. What Rossi, Marlin and Winchester have done with these 38/357 and the 44spec/44mag guns is compromise the timing to handle both lengths. What that means is they may have problems with really short specials and really long mags. This shows up more with the 38/357 guns mainly because of the diverse ammos available compared to the 44/44mag ammo.

Also, I think the cautions about not pushing 45lc brass to higher pressures may be valid only because there are still some of the old balloon cases floating around. Modern 45lc brass will handle higher pressures than the 29,000.

[Sarge]

Here's Linebaugh's essay on the heavy .45 Colt, if you haven't read it:

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/d ... e_myth.htm

If you scroll to the bottom of the page to his personal loads section you will see a "HS6/260 cast" load which I have used with satisfaction. That load generates under 24,000 CUP and runs 1232 fps from my 16" Rossi 92. It is also plenty accurate and should prove a sure killer on medium game... doesn't beat the gun or shooter to death when you light one off.

[mikld]

I have a M92 in .44 magnum (complete with the Rossi oversized bore). When i first get a gun I like to run some factory rounds through it and for my 92 I bought some Magtech 44 Special Cowboy ammo, among a couple boxes of other factory stuff. Very light recoil, muzzle blast and fairly accurate. But I reload so I have found a load with cast .432" boolits that shoots good groups and isn't murder on my sholder...

[Bill_Rights]

All good points.

I searched Midway and Natchez for factory .44 Special ammo, and all they have is snake shot and heavy (expensive!) hunting loads. Cupboard is bare, otherwise.

No, I do want to reload at some point. But I do not reload now. I don't want to wait till I start reloading to enjoy a decent range of loads. Mainly, I conceive of reloading as a means to save money on plinking/fun ammo. (Gasp, HERESY!!) I know it can be much more than that (for ex., tuning loads to get the same bullet arc for a variety of different bullet weights and types). Eventually I will get that bug, again. I reloaded for shotgun extensively in my youth, mainly for skeet mass consumption, though.

Yeh, I also hadn't really considered the .357 Mag/.38 Special choice that much, either. I'll look into that choice. At least my impression is that .38 Special ammo is abundant, for the "cream puff" applications.

About .45LC brass, one of the writers I mentioned said that Federal brass seemed to be a lot tougher than the others - would stand more reloads before developing cracks around the crimp/rim area.

About Linebaugh, one of the writers (Hawks, I believe) cautioned against copying some of Linebaugh's heavier loads (for use in a pistol). He believes these loads were specific for a line of Italian-made pistols that Linebaugh helped design and Linebaugh sells in the US. I don't know....

Great, great info, folks. Indeed it is rather comfortable around the fire. -Bill

[Old Savage]

I think you will be able to get all the power you want on the upper end from the 45 Colt loads in the 30,000 range. Read Paco's article.

[Bill_Rights]

Savage, Yes, and the .45LC seems to have no shortage of my factory "cream puff" loads, either.

[Old Savage]

Sarge - thanks for the Linebaugh article - very interesting - and congrats on the 100 post mark.

[AJMD429]

One other nice thing about the .45 Colt rifles is that with some of the off-the-shelf 'cowboy' loads you'll find, you barely hearing protectors; the local gunshop sells reloads that are about 900 fps and no louder than a .22 LR out of my 16" Rossi.

[Sarge]

You're welcome Old Savage & thank you.

Some years back I took a fit of loading the .45 Colt heavy- real heavy. I find these days I can accomplish anything I need to with factory duplication or 'second gear' Ruger loads like the HS6 load mentioned above. I do keep a few 335 Keiths loaded hot on hand, for the next trip to Alaska or perhaps a Maine moose hunt; and of course once in awhile I like to stand a stick of firewood on end and make it do a somersault.

The fact remains that the basic .45 Colt, especially loaded with a good SWC bullet, can do about 90% of what we can ask of a beltgun. The older I get, the happier I am with that.

[Bill_Rights]

Sarge, When you said

the basic .45 Colt, especially loaded with a good SWC bullet, can do about 90% of what we can ask of a beltgun.

what did you mean "beltgun"? Maybe a belted magnum rifle cartridge?

Bill (semi-Noob)

[JerryB]

I reckon he means a sixgun worn on a belt, not a belt fed gun.I believe I could do most all that needs done with my Colt .45 and the Rossi .45 carbine.

[Sarge]

Sarge, When you said

the basic .45 Colt, especially loaded with a good SWC bullet, can do about 90% of what we can ask of a beltgun.

what did you mean "beltgun"? Maybe a belted magnum rifle cartridge?

Bill (semi-Noob)

As in "worn on the belt", Bill.

[Bill_Rights]

Yes, of course, Sarge. We are talking pistol cartridges after all. Thank you and Jerry for being so gracious.