Paired .44 Mag Weapons

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:02 pm

I recently bought a .44 Mag Ruger Redhawk to pair with my 1894 Marlin .44 Mag. I have ordered a Lee Classic "hand" loader but I have ZERO experience. I know I can load to maximum size and “exceed” suggested tolerances do to the inherent strength of Ruger over-engineering their hand cannon. However, the reason I wanted a "PAIR" was so I could interchange ammo. Yes, by hand loading I can make separate loads, one for the rifle and one for the revolver. I don't WANT to. I want to work up a load that is acceptable for both and that will load in the Marlin.

Any suggestions? I have read about "Keith" bullets and think a 250 grain SWC bullet over "X" amount of #2400 sounds right, but I have no idea about overall length of the assembled bullet and casing. Will they load in the Marlin? I don’t necessarily have the “need” to MAX out the loads, but I do want a stout load. I would also like a light load to plink with that will function well but clear the longer barrel of the rifle.

I guess I want to have my cake and eat it too. Anyway guys-n-gals, just looking for some guidance and I appreciate your help.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:11 pm

If you REALLY want to keep eating that "cake" then stick to what you find in the loading manuals...

WHAT --- YOU HAVE NO MANUAL... GET SOME -- YES -- SEVERAL DIFFERENT ONES... AND READ THEM YES --- READ THEM -- COVER TO COVER -- BACK TO FRONT -- AND THEN READ THEM AGAIN...!!!

Most have a .44 Mag. "rifle" page, and that will get you in line with all the "performance" you'll ever need from the Big .44. The listed loads will be those that are SAFE -- in anybody's rifle AND IN YOURS TOO...

Some RIFLE loads are specific to rifles, and some REVOLVER loads are handgun specific as well. many are interchangeable, but not all. READ READ READ READ and don't be afraid to ask questions. Most of us don't bite -- even me -- at least usually.

Until you have been loading SUCCESSFULLY for at least 45 years, don't try to wander outside the boundaries of the manuals. THEN, be VERY VERY careful after that.

WHY LOADING EQUIPMENT MANUFACTURERS GO GRAY...

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:23 pm

Buck, thank you for your timely reply. I did not mean to imply that I was going to try to create some SUPER round. I am a firearms instructor and have seen accidents on the range. NO THANK YOU. I was just looking for suggested loads that the users of this site have loaded that work in BOTH their rifle and their revolvers. One round for hunting and one load for plinking. I have never read a loading manual, but I will. I am just excited about finally having a “pair” and I want to do it correctly. If I can skip reading TONS of data then GREAT! I am not looking for a super accurate load that will shoot the fleas off a caped buffalo at 1000 yards and I am not looking for a load to shoot a caped buffalo at 50 yards. I don’t plan on becoming the next Elmer Keith either. I don’t want to compile data, shoot, analyze, reevaluate and study some more. I just want one or two loads that people have found work for them. That is why I came here, to pick the brains of levergunners who can tell me what works in their pairs. I want to save on store bought costs and have the ability to make my own rounds. Most of all, I just want to get out and shoot. Thanks again for your quick response and I appreciate, and will heed, your warning about handloading.

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:26 pm

LISTEN TO BUCK !!!
THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS !!
ONLY USE PISTOL LOADS IN THE 44 CARBINE.
START WITH THE PISTOL AFTER YOU HAVE READ SEVERAL LOADING MANUALS.
DO NOT TAKE ANY LOADING DATA YOU SEE ON THE INTERNET AND USE IT WITH CHECKING IT AGAINST AT LEAST THREE[3] PRINTED SOURCES. SEVEN SOURCES IS BETTER YET. TOSS OUT THE LOW, TOSS OUT THE HIGH, AND START WITH THE AVERAGE OF THE FIVE STARTING LOADS.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:28 pm

May I repeat...

Some RIFLE loads are specific to rifles, and some REVOLVER loads are handgun specific as well. many are interchangeable, but not all. READ READ READ READ and don't be afraid to ask questions. Most of us don't bite -- even me -- at least usually.

Most of the guys who post her may be loathe to give out specific loaod data, unless it is from a widely-published source. Liability concerns, &c...

That is why you MUST READ READ READ READ. NOTHING you learn will be wasted. Handloading is serious business.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:35 pm

Buck Elliott wrote: Handloading is serious business.

yup.

better listen up.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:53 pm

I get it. This is Deadly Blow My Head Off Serious. Got it. Check. I am not mocking or kidding, I GET IT.

I have several officers that I work with that reload and have all of the bells and whistles with handloading manuals and benches and gear for days. I am not going to ever be one of those people.

I want to save money and learn to make a load or two…SAFELY…

I was just looking for some suggestions and to hear what works for people here. I don’t need the Chinese secret formula on how to make the gunpowder or how to load some mystery explosive round. I subscribe to the Backwoodsman magazine and learned how to make blackpowder by reading the recipe there. *Wink*

Guys…I just am looking for what works in a pair of guns. Heck, I can read, read, read, read all day long, and often I do…but I was just asking for what has worked in “pairs” for site members here.

I am looking for suggestions on bullet weight and type (WC, SWC, HP, FMJ, etc…) powder brand preference and grain preference. I suppose I could go to a cast bullet site, but I like this site and value the input about leveractions.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:00 pm

Terry Murbach wrote:LISTEN TO BUCK !!!
THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS !!
ONLY USE PISTOL LOADS IN THE 44 CARBINE...

+1; perhaps +100

It's not about the loads per se; the important thing that members of this forum wish to share with you, all in good will, is: Please make sure that you know HOW to assemble the loads safely. Perhaps an experienced friend is available. Otherwise, you need to read - first. That's all there is to it.

I read ABC's of Reloading, most of the info and the prefaces of several manuals and some creditable places on the Internet before even buying my first piece of equipment. Then, I purchased and read Lee, Hornady, and Speer manuals to start with - just reading the basics at the beginning of each book as I slowly progressed. I am GLAD I did.

You may not want to do this, but I recommend spending a few months looking into it to see if you have the inclination and patience to reload. I spent a whole year researching before I bought my first press, casing, bullet, or cannister of powder. Then, after loading around 1,000 rounds or more, I found this site with its excellent, creditable advice from experienced hunters and reloaders, and found out that there is still much to learn.

This is not to discourage you, because reloading is one of the most fascinating hobbies you can engage in, if you have a bit of patience. But it is not for a "quick and dirty" type of guy - you can get hurt - bad - if you are not careful.

Have you ever thought, for instance, that if you drink coffee while reloading with lead bullets that the toxic stuff gets into your system from where your thumb hits the coffee cup at the rim? Or that you put yourself in peril if you don't ventilate the area when using lead loads? Or that it is easy to double charge a case with many low powder loads, and that you should look down into each case unless you are using a "powder cop" type device? Or that you should wear goggles even with your "safe" equipment during the primer insertion process?

There are so many small details, most of which are spelled out in a good introductory reloading article, that you might overlook - risking health, injury, or just lousy loads. One cannot just grab some equipment, dump in powder and crunch in a bullet. Please heed the sage advice above; especially the advice found on this net, which I regard as the premier advice of its type anywhere on the 'net. If somebody says something stupid, or even a little bit inaccurate on this forum, you can rest assured that a more experienced poster will politely correct the errant posting. Opinions are one thing here, but safe practices are not "up to one's opinion" - they are Gospel.

If all of this turns a person off, then factory loads are the way to go. But if one is willing to put a little time in, the reloading part of shooting is just as satisfying as the shooting end, if not more.

As a quick answer, I researched the same type of information for the .44 Mag in rifle and pistol. I found that some pistol rounds are actually unsafe for a rifle load, and understandably vice versa - that's what is mentioned twice, above. In other words, your pet pistol load could blow up your rifle and put you in the hospital, quite bluntly. With heavier weight bullets, you have a narrow band of usable loads with certain powders that allow you to safely share the load with both types of firearms, per my examination of the tables in the factory manuals - Hornady and Speer to name two. That is one consideration; the other is that you need to look for various signs of trouble ("pressure") as you develop the loads for each round - by gently working up the loads for your particular firearm. The only way you will have a clue about pressure problems is to read about this issue in a some good "how-to" text as mentioned above; unless you know an experienced handloader (and not just any hot dog who loads hot rounds but has been blessed by not having had an incident).

Best wishes for a great reloading experience!

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:04 pm

If you're shooting a .44 Mag, it's already gonna whop things pretty good. No need for you to go retarded on the charges in your loads. Just load to what's normal for the caliber. IDK WHY people choose a certain caliber for their type of hunting, because it's an appropriate load, then try to load it up or down into something else!

If you needed more gun, why not get a .454? If you needed less gun, why not a .44 Spl.?

AND, BTW, telling us you have cops helping you gains you nothing. We've all seen cops shoot.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:06 pm

Iron_Marshal wrote:I recently bought a .44 Mag Ruger Redhawk to pair with my 1894 Marlin .44 Mag. I have ordered a Lee Classic "hand" loader but I have ZERO experience. I know I can load to maximum size and “exceed” suggested tolerances do to the inherent strength of Ruger over-engineering their hand cannon. However, the reason I wanted a "PAIR" was so I could interchange ammo. Yes, by hand loading I can make separate loads, one for the rifle and one for the revolver. I don't WANT to. I want to work up a load that is acceptable for both and that will load in the Marlin.

Any suggestions? I have read about "Keith" bullets and think a 250 grain SWC bullet over "X" amount of #2400 sounds right, but I have no idea about overall length of the assembled bullet and casing. Will they load in the Marlin? I don’t necessarily have the “need” to MAX out the loads, but I do want a stout load. I would also like a light load to plink with that will function well but clear the longer barrel of the rifle.

I guess I want to have my cake and eat it too. Anyway guys-n-gals, just looking for some guidance and I appreciate your help.

Get some Elmer Keith books and read them repeatedly.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:18 pm

Get Lee's Book, a set of Lee Dippers and be annal about the recipes....you'll be ok. Start with the minumim loads and don't quite get to the max. After you've done that for a good amount of time and understand the signs of pressure, you might proceed to a little hotter, published load. It's not rocket science, or even that hard, but a screw up can take off eyes and fingers.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:22 pm

Travis Morgan wrote: AND, BTW, telling us you have cops helping you gains you nothing. We've all seen cops shoot.
Hunter Ed. instructor
NRA Basic pistol Inst.
NRA Personal protection inst.
NRA Range safety officer

Shame on you. I have seen more than a couple of Range Instructors who didn't know what they were talking about in the choice of defensive firearms or how to conduct themselves in a shootout! (Can't find a smiley that is stiking its tongue out at the moment) !

(Ex-cop)

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:32 pm

I have had some good advice (from more than cops…LOL) about a “recipe” that should work well. AGAIN, I reiterate, I am not looking for a dangerous grizzly load. I want something that will work in BOTH my rifle and revolver. I am NOT looking to load hot pistol rounds in my rifle. I went back into some old posts and found some advice. What do you all think?

“Lee Loader will come with a powder dipper and a "charge table." It will tell you which powder you can use with the dipper they supply and they'll tell you the charge weight it will throw.”

”My .44 Mag Lee Loader comes with a 1.3cc dipper and according to the charge table included with the kit that should throw a 17.5 grain charge of 2400. If you're going to stay with the Lee Loader as it is you can load a 240 grain cast lead bullet with either 2400, Blue Dot, or Herco powders with the 1.3cc dipper.”
”If you are buying the LL from a store check the table in the box before you leave the store so you'll know which powder best suits you. The charge of 2400 listed should give you 1285 FPS with the 240 gr. cast bullet.”

“Loading down the plentiful .44 mag brass seems to me to be the only way to fly. 8.0 to 8.5 gr. of Unique under a 240 gr. bullet is a mild load which should work very well.”

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:31 pm

I have had a Marlin 1894 and Super Blackhawk since the 1970's, and haven't blown them up yet...

I like 'simplicity' (i.e. the 'one load for both guns' concept), and I like 'safety' (i.e. if I need 'more' power, I'll get out the .444 Marlin), so it sounds like we're on the same page.

I have used 2400 powder and 240 grain bullets the whole time, with loads ranging from 19 to 21 grains. They work fine in both guns.

I use a Lee Classic 4-hole Turret with a Lee 'Disk' measure (whatever it is called) with the 'double' disk add-on kit, and Lee dies (see below), because the Rockchucker is too slow, and the Dillon RL550 is fast, but too difficult to quickly 'tweak' for different loads when working one up (there are accessories for the Dillon that remedy that).

Here's a link to some of my recent 'load development' trials and tribulations - the big problem was that I wasn't getting as much accuracy from my modern dies and press as I remember getting back in the Lee 'mallet tool' days. The secret was the CRIMP (imagine the 'mallet tool' giving a better crimp than either a RCBS or a Lee FC die?) as far as I can tell. I got a Lee ".44-40" FCD, and it crimped way better (only the 'rifle' FCD's are really a four-prong collet - the 'pistol' Lee FCD's are just a sliding carbide ring, and Lee makes .44 Mag as 'pistol' and .44-40 as 'rifle'). I did file the bottom of the .44-40 die off a bit, since the press actuates the crimping, and the case dimensions are different, although even before filing, I got a good crimp. Search the forum (upper right of your screen) for "AJMD429" under 'author' and "crimp" under 'subject' and you'll probably find more on this topic.

I got lots of excellent feedback on reloading from forum members on these two posts:
(Thanks, guys

)

My main "44 reloading" post - http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=21695

My main post on "crimping" the 44 - http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=21325

Enjoy your 44's - pretty soon, you'll want a whole FAMILY of them...

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:03 pm

AJMD429, Thank you! This is EXACTLY the kind of info I was after.

"I have had a Marlin 1894 and Super Blackhawk since the 1970's, and haven't blown them up yet..."

My pair is a Marlin 1894SS and a Ruger Redhawk, but I don't plan to overload a thing.

"I like 'simplicity' (i.e. the 'one load for both guns' concept), and I like 'safety' (i.e. if I need 'more' power, I'll get out the .444 Marlin), so it sounds like we're on the same page."

I am sooo glad you caught on that I am not looking to reinvent the wheel. I just want to learn how to make your basic stone rolly thing.

"I have used 2400 powder and 240 grain bullets the whole time, with loads ranging from 19 to 21 grains. They work fine in both guns."

The Lee Loader throws about 17.5 grains of powder and you suggest 19 to 21. Have you used 17.5 grains of 2400? Do you think I should invest in some scales or perhaps a different charge/scoop? What about heavier bullets? Will they load in the rifle? Heavier generally means longer. When I muzzleload I use a .50 cal/300 grain bullet and have never had one run.

Have you had any problems with the Lee Loader not loading correct Overall Case Length? I am worried that what is good for the goose may not be good for the gander....errrr... What is good for the revolver may not be good for the rifle... or something like that. Thank you!

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:15 pm

Iron_Marshal wrote:AJMD429, Thank you! This is EXACTLY the kind of info I was after.

"I have had a Marlin 1894 and Super Blackhawk since the 1970's, and haven't blown them up yet..."

My pair is a Marlin 1894SS and a Ruger Redhawk, but I don't plan to overload a thing.

"I like 'simplicity' (i.e. the 'one load for both guns' concept), and I like 'safety' (i.e. if I need 'more' power, I'll get out the .444 Marlin), so it sounds like we're on the same page."

I am sooo glad you caught on that I am not looking to reinvent the wheel. I just want to learn how to make your basic stone rolly thing.

"I have used 2400 powder and 240 grain bullets the whole time, with loads ranging from 19 to 21 grains. They work fine in both guns."

The Lee Loader throws about 17.5 grains of powder and you suggest 19 to 21. Have you used 17.5 grains of 2400? Do you think I should invest in some scales or perhaps a different charge/scoop? What about heavier bullets? Will they load in the rifle? Heavier generally means longer. When I muzzleload I use a .50 cal/300 grain bullet and have never had one run.

Have you had any problems with the Lee Loader not loading correct Overall Case Length? I am worried that what is good for the goose may not be good for the gander....errrr... What is good for the revolver may not be good for the rifle... or something like that. Thank you!

DO NOT--NOT!!!--EVEN THINK OF HANDLOADING AMMUNITION WITHOUT THE PROPER POWDER SCALE TO WEIGH ALL CHARGES THROWN BY THOSE DIPPERS.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:19 pm

From what I've read, "those dippers" are very accurate with certain powders. #2400 powder, from what I've read and been told by veteran handloaders, is very consistent.

Yes...No...?

I am just a sponge soaking up the knowledge.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:36 pm

Humidity and other factors change the capacity of powder within a given volume. And powder can change a bit from lot to lot. Yup - Use a scale to calibrate the dippers.

And dipping the wrong way can compress the powder in the scoop, giving you more than your load calls for. Scoop it gently down into the powder, and use a straight edge (e.g. 3x5 card) to level the top; you don't want to drag it through the powder like a steam shovel. There we go again with the information I gained from reading before loading!

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:41 pm

Iron_Marshal wrote:From what I've read, "those dippers" are very accurate with certain powders. #2400 powder, from what I've read and been told by veteran handloaders, is very consistent.

Yes...No...?

I am just a sponge soaking up the knowledge.

YOU-MUST-USE-A-SCALE-TO-VERIFY-WHAT-THE-DIPPER-IS-THROWING !!! DO NOT BELIEVE THE DIPPER CHART. IT IS A GUESTIMATE ONLY. AND THEN YOU BUY A NEW LOT OF POWDER AND IT ALL CHANGES WHEN THE VOLUMN IS DIFFERENT FOR THE SAME WEIGHT. YOU MUST WEIGH BY GRAINS [ 7000 grs PER POUND AUVOIRDUPOIS] AND THE ONLY WAY TO DO IT IS WITH A SCALE.
IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO DO SOME SERIOUS READING OF LOADING MANUALS !!! THESE ARE THE TEXT BOOKS FOR HANDLOADING AND IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE BOTHERED WITH THEM KINDLY TAKE UP ANOTHER SPORT LESS DANGEROUS TO YOUR EYES, FINGERS, HANDS, OR ASSORTED OTHER GIBLETS; PLEASE.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:46 pm

Iron_Marshal wrote:From what I've read, "those dippers" are very accurate with certain powders. #2400 powder, from what I've read and been told by veteran handloaders, is very consistent.

Yes...No...?

I am just a sponge soaking up the knowledge.

"Yes..No..?"
NO -- not always, which is why all the caveats...

there is NO safe, "quick and easy way" to do this...

Meeteetse · Post by **Meeteetse** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:54 pm

All of the caution and information from everyone is right on the money. Be very careful.

I have been shooting common caliber guns for several years in 38/.357 and .44mag/.44spec. I have the same two guns you have and I have found for me that the best plinking load for the .44 mag is the .44 special. They load just fine in my Marlin. If you stick to the books you can load mags and specials and never get them mixed up because of the differing case lengths. If you use only mag cases you should mark the "hot" loads so you don't get a surprise when plinking.

The dippers work for black powder but be very careful using smokeless powder. Weighing each load is a much safer and smarter way to go.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:58 pm

If you have neither the patience, humility nor good sense to follow the advice you'e been given here:

DONT HANDLOAD...!!! PLEASE...

It's just THAT simple

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:12 pm

Iron_Marshal wrote:....I am just a sponge soaking up the knowledge.

That is a good attitude and will take you far in any endevour.

If I were just starting to handload, as I did forty some years ago, I would start with the 240 gr. round nose flat point jacketed bullet in the .44 Magnum.
It should feed well in your rifle and shoot well in both guns.
Pay attention to the details such as overall length and crimping and you will do fine.
You might want to add an inexpensive dial caliper to your tool box to check the case length as that will greatly affect the consistency of your crimp. Lee makes a good quality and inexpensive case trimmer that will help keep your cases trimmed to a uniform length.
Be sure to try your first loaded rounds for ease of chambering in both guns and for feeding in the rifle, before you load up hundreds of them. Do so with safety first in mind.
I shoot quite a lot of .44 ammo and find that 2400 powder gives me good results with cast lead bullets. 2400 has a good range of velocities for everything from light target loads to heavy hunting loads and does not tend to suddenly go from normal to dangerous pressures. This makes it a good powder with which to learn the basics of handloading.
I usually sort my brass by headstamp for best accuracy. If you are just starting and have not already accumulated a lot of brass it might be best to start by buying a couple of hundred new empty cases. Starline seem to be very well thought of but Winchester, Remington or most any other domestic brand would be fine. I would not bother with Amerc brass at all and won't even pick it from the ground for free (and I'm really cheap.)

Many people get a lot of satisfaction from handloading. There is something special about shooting a good target with ammo that you made yourself. You will also grow to appreciate the ability to control the excessive recoil, noise, and cost of full power loads by selecting the best load for the job.

Jack

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:29 pm

Ditto on all the safety advice.

A couple of things I've learned from reloading.

1. Make sure you have a precise procedure for keeping up with cases you've already put powder into. Trust me, you don't want to put a double charge of powder into a case. Also, make sure you PUT powder in each case. Always carry some kind of push rod with you when you're shooting. If you get a case that doesn't have any powder, the bullet will get stuck in the barrel and you have to get it out.

2. Start at the bottom and work your way up. Most of my plinking loads are 240 grain Keiths going anywhere between 900-1000 f.p.s. Even my "hunting" loads don't get too much hotter, maybe 1200 f.p.s. or a little faster. I don't like to shoot anything hotter than that on a regular basis. I'm a wimp, I know.

With loads like that you should be good to go in either the Redhawk or the Marlin, and you'll get more velocity out of the same loads in the rifle. The Redhawk is an extremely strong and well built revolver, and can handle some pretty stout loads, but like I said, work your way up. Get some 240 gr. Keiths, several loading manuals, because they're all different, and learn how to reload. If the Marlin feeds the Keiths well, which I think it should, you have a standard bullet to start with. You can experiment from there. You can go to a heavier bullet, lighter bullet, or whatever you choose. Just stay in the low to mid range loads from the manuals and you should be fine. A scale is a good tool to utilize, especially when you're switching powders, or you buy a new can of powder to make sure the scoop is throwing what it's supposed to be. Honestly, I don't take the time to measure every single charge of powder. I check every once in a while to make sure it's not off, but not every time I load a case. Listen to these guys, though, they know what they're talking about.

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:59 pm

I would suggest you pair-up with a seasoned Reloader and learn the Ropes that way.

There are no short-cuts to reloading, I learned by reading all I could find on the subject prior to my first attempt. I have been reloading for 40 years, and learn something new all the time.

Buy a Reloading Manual and read, read, & read.

To produce a load that will function in both the Rifle & Revolver can be difficult. Example, what may shoot and function in the revolver may not cycle, feed and function in the Rifle.
When working-up a dual function load I always choose the Rifle first. I find out what the Rifle will accept and then tweak the load for the revolver. Not all bullets will feed in your Marlin, such as Semi-wad-cutters. Bullets larger than 240 gr. may be a problem for the Marlin due to Cartridge over all length. Bullet crimp can be a factor for the lever gun also. A bullet with out a crimp can push back in the case, causing a magazine jam, and action lock-up if attempted to cycle & chamber. In this case you better know how to tear-down that Marlin.
IIRC, the Classic Lee Loader will not crimp the bullet on seating.

You have a lot to learn, get to reading. And good luck.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:16 pm

Iron_Marshal wrote:From what I've read, "those dippers" are very accurate with certain powders. #2400 powder, from what I've read and been told by veteran handloaders, is very consistent.
Yes...No...?

Yes, but only the 'veteran handloaders' on THIS forum know the TRUTH...

The 'dippers' use VOLUME, and if they are 'scooped' uniformly, should rival any ordinary powder measure. 'Veteran handloaders' have used them to win benchrest matches, and I used them to get 5-shot, 100 yard, 3/8" groups from a Ruger M77 in 6mm Remington as a kid, with IMR 4831 powder.

But yes, I DID weigh five dipped charges and total the weight to see that charges were within spec, and then DID weigh five individual ones to see how uniform they were (within 0.02 grain every time).

So to summarize my humble opinion...

I'd definitely have some sort of reloading scale to CHECK charges, regardless of how you measure them.

I'd definitely NOT weigh every charge unless making precision benchrest ammunition, or unless you think you can shoot the 'difference' of 0.02 grain using a revolver or levergun (I sure can't!).

I'd use dippers as soon as a volumetric powder measure, until you want to reload fast enough that you want a powder measure on the press. At that point for myself, I got the Lee 'disk' one, but the fancier of their two models (after reading poor reviews of the lesser one), and I got the 'double' disk kit, so I can measure about any volume needed.

As above, I STILL weigh a few charges from the powder scale, before loading live ammo.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:39 pm

Not much to add other than congratulations on the guns! You have great taste in weaponry!

BTW, you'll love handloading. It is one of the most satisfying and relaxing activities you can do. Not the most - but we won't go there!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:02 pm

Ysabel Kid wrote:BTW, you'll love handloading. It is one of the most satisfying and relaxing activities you can do. Not the most - but we won't go there!

That's a different kind of reloading; the results take longer, but are MUCH noisier, and MUCH more expensive in the long run. I only reloaded four of them, and they're getting to college age now. . .

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:20 pm

JohndeFresno wrote:Shame on you. I have seen more than a couple of Range Instructors who didn't know what they were talking about in the choice of defensive firearms or how to conduct themselves in a shootout! (Can't find a smiley that is stiking its tongue out at the moment) !
(Ex-cop)

Most people have never been in a defensive shooting or a shootout. Most of it's just conjecture. Even more of it is just stuff.

piller · Post by **piller** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:42 pm

Just my opinion, but when starting reloading, ask lots of people who have been reloading for years, buy several books, and even then, be totally cautious. I still have all my fingers, and I don't want to lose any of them. I load for my .480 Ruger, my rifles, and now for my .44 Mag. Do not ever think that just because a gun has a reputation for being "Bomb Proof" that it can be loaded to above published manual recipes. It is merely giving you a little margin of error for being human, not giving you license to be insane. There might me a gun from any manufacturer which gets out and is not quite as strong as the average. Don't push you luck, or someday, somewhere, your luck will fail and some gun will take it's revenge and a finger or two. Besides, the .44 Mag is plenty powerful for most purposes if you never go above factory loadings. If you need more gun, then get a more powerful caliber. That said, reloading is a lot of fun because you might find that your guns both like one certain recipe, and maybe you might have to compromise. The finding of the "Sweet Spot" is a lot of fun. Expensive, but fun.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:42 am

Thanks for all of the good advice! I don’t even have the Lee Loader yet, but its paid for and ships on Monday. I hope I did not give the impression that I was just going to start throwing powder and primers around the second it arrives. I just wanted to get experienced opinions and advice from those who have “been there, done that, got the powder burns to prove it.” Most of you were very helpful, while some seemed hell bent on getting me to never touch a hand-loading component. Overall, I came here because I knew I could count on the advice given by site members. I have not been steered wrong by anyone here yet and don’t expect that to ever be the case… Thanks again folks.

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:59 am

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_no ... tes.htm/51 Good info on starting on the cheap.

Get The ABCs of Reloading. Use only published data. Start at the "starting load" (there's a reason for calling it the starting load, that's where you start!). Friends and forum members are well meaning, but don't trust any word-of-mouth reloading data. I don't use any loads from the internet that I don't check against a couple manuals first. Sound paranoid? Maybe, but I've still got all my guns and fingers!

FWIW, I use a Round Nose Flat Point, 250 gr. bullet from Beartooth with about 10 gr Unique in both my rifle (Puma .44) and my handguns (S&W 629, Ruger SBH, and Dan Wesson). Easy shooting for both handguns and rifle.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:18 pm

OK - I think the safety aspect has been covered well.

I will simply offer a load that should work well in both firearms - a good hot hunting type load: 240 grain Hornady XTP loaded over 25.0 Grains of H110 or W296 with a CCI 350 magnum primer. Mine are in RP cases. This is the maximum load and comes from the Hornady manual that I have which I believe is one edition back from the current.

This will give you over 1900 fps in the carbine.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:34 pm

Iron_Marshal wrote:Thanks for all of the good advice! I don’t even have the Lee Loader yet, but its paid for and ships on Monday. I hope I did not give the impression that I was just going to start throwing powder and primers around the second it arrives. I just wanted to get experienced opinions and advice from those who have “been there, done that, got the powder burns to prove it.” Most of you were very helpful, while some seemed hell bent on getting me to never touch a hand-loading component. Overall, I came here because I knew I could count on the advice given by site members. I have not been steered wrong by anyone here yet and don’t expect that to ever be the case… Thanks again folks.

NOT TRYING to get you to abandon handloading. Just trying to convey to you that your lack of education in the matter has given you a false sense of "abandon" when it comes to putting components together. Go back and read some of your "yeah-buts" to the advice you've been given.

As for the "powder burns..." Most of us don't really have any -- because we STUDIED and LEARNED and went by the BOOK, and never aquired them as a result.

FWIW, You CANNOT soak up KNOWLEDGE from this -- or any other -- forum or source. At best, you'll get basic INFORMATION, which you must then apply and reapply, and continually add upon, in order to gain KNOWLEDGE. Further application and amplification of KNOWLEDGE leads to EXPERIENCE, which, if carefully measured and applied, may eventually lead to WISDOM. Try to short-circuit the process and you simply may wind up as a "wise-@$$" called "Stumpy..." or "One-Eye."

Most of us here would rather see the latter NOT happen. It's now up to you.

1886 · Post by **1886** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:02 pm

Perhaps this has been mentioned but just in case, get check weights with your new scale. 1886.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:32 pm

Well, I do not feel I came on here posting as a "wise-@$$" but I have been accused of that in the past. I came here looking for loading info. I do not even have the Lee Loader yet. It won’t even ship until tomorrow. I wanted to know what loads have been worked up by other posters that will work in both weapons so I have some Idea of what to expect in reference to reliable feeding due to overall case length.

Perhaps my dander is up because of large font comments such as,

“WHY LOADING EQUIPMENT MANUFACTURERS GO GRAY...”
and…

“DONT HANDLOAD...!!!”

Buck, my eyesight is fine. While I appreciate the sage advice, ease up on the tone oh wise one. It isn’t what you said… well, ok, it is.

* Wink * I can take a ribbing (and instruction), but I’m 40 years old and you are coming across as a bit ostentatious. I didn’t ask how to incrementally increase my loads until I had a critical failure and blow up a weapon or myself; I just wanted some favorite loads that would work for both weapons. I am not entering this with frivolity laced with alcohol and ignorance. I cross my heart and hope to die (bad choice of words?) that I will read, read, read, and be cautious. (OK, now that last bit displayed a bit of my “wise-@$$” nature.)

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:32 pm

This is what I was talking about, regarding the need to consult good sources for both your rifle AND pistol, and the dangers inherent in using combined loads - especially with heavier bullets.

You can see by the attached spreadsheets, compiled from factory source material, that there is only an average of .9 grains leeway allowed in each load for rifle and pistol with two different 300 grain bullets.

That is, because of the minimum and maximum limits of a pistol versus a rifle load, one is either load too light or too heavy for the other, unless your loads are within a range of AN AVERAGE OF .9 of a grain either way!

Of course, none of us want a bullet stuck in the rifle with those dangers, or a blown pistol.

The manuals are written conservatively and there is a safety factor built in to SAAMI specs; but the illustration is there. As for me, I have strong firearms in excellent condition; but
then I would not want to have something go wrong for any reason while my firearm and handcrafted loads are being used by my wife or my grandson. I just don't go the hot load route - better to get a .454 Casull if more power is needed, as noted by other posters.

I hope that this information helps to illuminate the need for researching your loads for both firearms to be used by the same load. Best wishes in your reloading journey.

See attached spreadsheet:
44Mag_300GrRifleAndPistolComboLoads.xls

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:37 pm

Some folks can be cantankerous, not intentional usually, just how they are.
Part is what your asking though. What works for me might not work for you. Whats safe in my guns, especially near max, might not be safe if yours. Whats a safe near max in one of your guns might be over max in the other one. That said I have pretty much your exact combo, a Redhawk, a 336 44 mag & a 1894 44mag. I have loads that work in all three but none do their best with a shared load and mine simply cannot shoot the same dia cast bullets. Just my luck I guess.
I would suggest trying 2400 because it performs well for me in all three but you'll need to start at the bottom & work up on your own.

ndcowboy · Post by **ndcowboy** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:37 pm

Earlier you asked about the dipper that comes with the reloading kit, and you've received a couple opinions about it. Here is mine: I love the Lee dippers. I use them for reloading .223, 30-06, 30-30, .32 mag, .44 special, and .44 mag. They plain work. There is nothing to get out of wack or go wrong. I love simple things that do their job, and the Lee dippers are just such things.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:54 pm

This is just GREAT info. Of course I will double check...triple check...quadruple check...adnauseum, the information provided, but MY GOSH it is so nice of you all to post such indepth and thoughtful research. I guess I am just used to the "real" world being rushed and rude with no time for a beginner bothering them with pesky questions. Thanks again, everyone of you!

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:11 pm

JohndeFresno,

If I understand what you have listed, 17.1-18.5 of 2400, with a Speer Mag SP 300 gr will be within safe tolerances in the rifle. Since the Lee Loader dipper "throws" 17.5 it should be safe for both? ( I know...check...check...re-check...LOL)

What about overall case length? I could make some dummy rounds to check for fit I suppose. I REALLY like heavy bullets. I use 300 gr in my .50 cal front stuffer and I have never had a deer run. Slow moving large chunks of lead are my favorite.

A lot of people seem to suggest using 240-250 gr bullets. Your thoughts sir?

What about cast bullets? The economy being what it is...and just wanting to learn how to cast my own bullets, they seem like a decent option.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:36 pm

I will comment on the cast boolits. The keith boolits are often recommended and are excellent no doubt. However, in 44 Mag cases, they are usually too long to cycle in the carbines. Lee makes a six-hole mold for a 240 grain swc that will cycle through your levergun - it is a gas check variety which is a good way to start. http://www.grafs.com/product/262104 These are $39 at the link shown.

Get the Lee sizer die kit and a lee hand press to size the boolits.

You will find that there is much to get in order to start casting and it can be even more complex than simple handloading. But it doesn't need to be.

You can get on with a coleman stove, lead pot, ladel, heavy gloves, mold and sizer/luber kit of some kind. Again, Lee makes the most economical stuff...

A topic for a new thread perhaps or read one of the many that are already in the archives here.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:00 pm

Folks will tell you that the Marlin won't stabilize bullets over 240 grains, but search this and other forums, and you'll find MANY examples to the contrary. Remember though that velocity is a part of the equation - you only get the RPM's you need for a given length (weight) bullet due to BOTH twist rate and velocity, so a slow or light load has the same problems potentially as a slow-twist barrel. Unfortunately, a 'hot' or fast load with a long (heavy) bullet pushes the limits of any gun. Still, many shooters have gotten good results with 265 grainers, and even 300 grainers, in their Marlin 44 Magnum rifles. I think hardness of bullet, bullet diameter, bullet shape, bore condition, etc. all play a role, though.

Personally, I have never felt the need to go over 240 grains (if I did, I'd use a .45 Colt).

If you look at other brands of gun there are rifles in .44 Mag with faster twist rates. I forget what the Winchesters are, and I think the Pumas vary, but both the Rugers I have (96/44 and 77/44) are 1:20" which supposedly would work better if I got the desire to shoot heavier bullets. But then so would a .45 Colt, or .44 Marlin (in one with the same lame twist as the 1894, I'd get higher velocities due to the cartridge, which would offset things, and in an Marlin XLR, the .444 has a faster twist rate anyway).

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:42 pm

Iron_Marshal wrote:A lot of people seem to suggest using 240-250 gr bullets. Your thoughts sir?

What about cast bullets? The economy being what it is...and just wanting to learn how to cast my own bullets, they seem like a decent option.

I know the above wasn't directed towards me, but I'll give you my opinion based on my extensive experience:

240-270 gr. bullets are pretty much you all-around, go anywhere, do anything loads. I include the 270 gr. weights because of certain molds that are meant to drop around 270 gr. that are popular. 300 gr. bullets are really more than ya need, unless you live on Kodiak Island or on a Rhino preserve. They'll work fine, they just cause a lot of needless recoil and stress on the gun and the shooter.

As for cast bullets...... Go buy the gear! BEST shooting related investments I ever made! Whether you're shooting a semi auto pistol, a sixshooter, or any kinda non gas operated rifle, you can crank out a year's worth of bullets in a coupla weekends. No longer will you have to be stingy with your ammo; you can practice until you're sick of shooting for the cost of a nice lunch! My caveat: buy STEEL molds; less of a PITA, the heat more uniformly, are more durable, and just seem better in every way. Well worth the extra cost.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:04 pm

Iron_Marshal wrote:JohndeFresno...

Since the Lee Loader dipper "throws" 17.5 it should be safe for both?
Yes, providing that you have verified what it throws as noted on previous pages. And there has been a lot written about "sweet spot" loads that fall below the max loads that frequently tend to be more accurate.

What about overall case length?
The Case Overall Length ("COL" or "COAL" in various manuals) is shown at the top of each table on the spreadsheets on the previous web page.

A lot of people seem to suggest using 240-250 gr bullets.
This range of bullets is the de facto standard for the .44; I don't need to add to the excellent replies above!

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:16 pm

Iron_Marshal wrote:....What about cast bullets? The economy being what it is...and just wanting to learn how to cast my own bullets, they seem like a decent option.

Casting your own is a great idea, when the time comes.
I would suggest that you concentrate on handloading first.
If you would like to try cast bullets, buy some ready made for now.
There are several commercial cast bullet makers that produce very good product for reasonable prices. Nowhere as cheap as you will eventually make, of course.

It will cost somewhere between $100 and $500 to set up for bullet casting.
That sounds like a bunch of money until you realize how fast the equipment will pay for itself.
Since I scrounge for every source of free lead and bought my casting equipment back in the '60s, I figure that my bullets are pretty much free. I have bought a couple of new moulds lately but the cost of the mould is about the same as the cost of 250 ready made cast bullets, so the pay back is almost instant. I shoot 4 or 5 hundred rounds of centerfire pistol ammo per month through most of the year

Jack

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:46 pm

JohndeFresno wrote:That is, because of the minimum and maximum limits of a pistol versus a rifle load, one is either load too light or too heavy for the other, unless your loads are within a range of AN AVERAGE OF .9 of a grain either way!

Now I'm confused. . . (of course that isn't a rare event, mind you)

I buy Winchester 'white box' 240 gr SP's whenever I can get them (my favorite birthday present a few years back was 1,000 rounds of them from my wife

), and shoot them with 'wild abandon' in my pistol and rifle. I don't reload unusually 'heavy' or unusually 'light', but pretty much try to get close to the factory ballistics, and am able to do so with loads well UNDER the 'maximum' listed in any of the bullet maker or powder maker manuals. So, I find it really EASY to get a load which works in my pistol AND rifle, staying well BELOW loads that are 'too light' or 'too heavy'.

When I see loads listed for .45 Colt, or .45-70, I find 'antique gun' loads, 'modern gun' loads, and 'Ruger' loads, etc., but for .44 Magnum, I've never seen the load data stratified like that, since pretty much all the guns labeled ".44 Magnum" are 'modern', so unless one wants to push the limits of the 'extra strong' ones (whatever they are), I always thought you could SAFELY load ordinary (i.e. manufacturer's data) loads in both pistol and rifle. I've done it for years, and never thought I was courting disaster.

Now, as far as the 'optimum' load in terms of accuracy, I understand there would likely be differences between 'pistol' and 'rifle' loads in terms of both powder charge, as well as cartridge overall length, although I'd wager that there would be as much difference between different rifles as between pistols and rifles. For me, at least, I'm plenty happy duplicating 'factory' performance in terms of feeding and accuracy, even if it is a 'one size fits all' proposition. I don't think it is lazy - much less 'dangerous' - to not work up separate loads for two modern guns chambered for .44 Magnum; to the contrary, if anything I'd think it unwise to push either gun's limits so as to have to keep separate loads.

Anyway, I thought that "However, the reason I wanted a "PAIR" was so I could interchange ammo. Yes, by hand loading I can make separate loads, one for the rifle and one for the revolver. I don't WANT to. I want to work up a load that is acceptable for both and that will load in the Marlin," seemed like a pretty doable and reasonable thing.

I also thought that "I don’t necessarily have the “need” to MAX out the loads, but I do want a stout load. I would also like a light load to plink with that will function well but clear the longer barrel of the rifle," seemed sensible - a 'stout' but not 'MAX' load, and a 'light load to plink with' is surely reasonable, and again seems doable.

It sounds like his goal is to develop two loads for the .44 Magnum:

One 'stout' load, akin to the 240gr factory loads BOTH guns seem to shoot quite well in my experience, and

One 'light' load, akin to .44 Special, but with an appropriate powder charge for a .44 Magnum case.

I've found 2400 powder and 240 grain bullets function in ALL my .44 Magnums with loads varying from 18 to 21 grains, and the 18 grain loads are very mild, while the 21 grain ones are very 'stout' (Alliant lists "21 grains" on their website as THE load for .44 Magnum, so surely that load is NOT pushing any 'hot' limits). I wound up using 20.3 grains for my 'stout' load because it shot slightly better than the 21.0 grains, and was easy to meter with my disk measure. Also easy to meter was 18.7 grains, so that is my 'plinking' load. BOTH those loads are well within loads sanctioned by various bullet manufacturers and/or Alliant powder company, with NO mention of whether they are 'not for rifle' or 'not for pistol' use.

Is that too unrealistic? Am I missing something?

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:33 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
JohndeFresno wrote:That is, because of the minimum and maximum limits of a pistol versus a rifle load, one is either load too light or too heavy for the other, unless your loads are within a range of AN AVERAGE OF .9 of a grain either way!
Now I'm confused. . . (of course that isn't a rare event, mind you)

I buy Winchester 'white box' 240 gr SP's whenever I can get them (my favorite birthday present a few years back was 1,000 rounds of them from my wife ), and shoot them with 'wild abandon' in my pistol and rifle... ]

Yup. I was surprised, too, when I researched some common loads for a Taurus revolver and a Marlin .44 levergun.

Factory loads, in at least some instances, use proprietary combined powders with lower pressures that allow either complete case fills or consistent compressed fills. My knowledge of the whole gamut of factory ammo is admittedly quite limited.

However, might that be why nobody seems to worry about a Wally World 44 mag cartridge working properly in such a wide variety of firearms?

Roland · Post by **Roland** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:56 am

Aiming for a similar pairing myself, a S&W 629 classic with a 92 of some sort in .44mag.

Handed in permit applications (need those in finland) for a S&W 629 and a nice old S&W M17-2 I found in excellent condition as well. My first revolvers if all goes well.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:05 am

Let's not forget the new Ruger Lipsey 44 Special flat tops - they would make a great companion to a 44 Mag lever too - you just shoot the 44 specials in both. The top loads for the Ruger will push a 255 grain Keith swc to 1400+ in the carbine - plenty for hunting. And the added bonus is that the 44 Sepcials with the Keith boolits will cycle through the carbine.