OT - plumbing problem/question - LIME

[AJMD429]

35 year old copper pipes, well water, no softener, electric water heater is 3 years old. Faucet aerators and washer intake filters are getting clogged weekly! Logic tells me I could simply disconnect the hot water portion of the system, and flush/fill it with something (vinegar, muriatic acid?) to dissolve or loosen the lime, then flush it out with plenty of water, but I've never done that. I also know that lime is likely to release copious volumes of CO2 with anything I know of to 'dissolve' it, and that could be 'messy' to say the least, not to mention contribute to global warming.

If the pipes aren't the source, the water heater most certainly could be, but I'd not want to 'dissolve' lime out of a water heater unless I took it outside and there was plenty of pressure-escape for the gas. I can replace the water heater, as far as that goes, although it seems ridiculous to have to do that so soon (our house has the same well water and heaters have lasted 20 years so far), but I don't know that it would resolve the problem.

Thoughts, Ideas?

(...calling a plumber is not something I'm likely to do - our last such experience cost $1,400 to have one come out three times then finally say the leak was 'not fixable' - at which point I took half a day off work, and fixed the problem with $40 worth of materials, plus some colorful language...I'd rather re-plumb the house in question than go through that again!)

[iceman]

You could try simply flushing your hot water tank. Open the bottom drain and flush out the crud from the bottom. Refill and flush again. There is usually an electrode in the tank to help save the elements maybe it is used up. Just some ideas. I am on a well too but luckily not too hard water tanks last 15 years or so.

[redbeardinntx]

This is for informative pourposes only and should be attempted only by a licened plumber. In some locations this could be illegal to be done by anyone not licenced. Author assumes no liability

This pertaines only to a tank type Electric water heater. THe main reason you are having problems is heating water with a high lime content will cause the "scale" to settle in the bottom of the water heater.What you need to do is follow the manufactures recomendations to purge your tank of the sediment.

FIRST TURN OFF THE POWER TO THE TANK AND VERIFY IT IS OFF. One way is to close the hot water supply valve(if you have one) and connect a garden hose to the hose threaded valve on the bottom of the tank. Then open said valve WHILE the cold supply line is open. This will force the slimy material out of the bottom of the tank. MAKE DANG SURE the other end of the hose isnt pointing at the neighbors car or the Mrs prise roses (lol dont ask) If you dont have a hot supply valve.Have one installed. As you need to prevent the water/slime mix from rising to the top of the tank. Once you have removed most of the lime,shut off the supply water and drain the tank. You need to open the spring loaded lever on the Temp/ Presure relief valve. Usually on the side or top of the tank.Once the tank drains, refill and repeat if necessary.

[redbeardinntx]

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU ATTEMPT TO FLUSH YOU PIPES WITH ANYTHING BUT WATER.

[Mokwaw]

If you use the muratic acid, be sure and do it outside and wear goggles and/or face shield and rubber gloves and apron. This stuff will spit and sputter a great deal splashing every thing. When it quits spitting and carrying on the job is done, flush with lots of cold water I used to have a tankless water heater that required flushing about once a year to keep it at best effeciency.

Will help a great deal if you add a whole house water filter and get yourself and water softener. I've got both on my well and system and don't have much problems.

[AJMD429]

There is a whole-house filter (actually a coarse, then a fine) prior to the water heater, but I assume none of the 'household' ones are rated for hot water line use, being made of plastic.

[firefuzz]

This is for informative pourposes only and should be attempted only by a licened plumber. In some locations this could be illegal to be done by anyone not licenced. Author assumes no liability

This pertaines only to a tank type Electric water heater. THe main reason you are having problems is heating water with a high lime content will cause the "scale" to settle in the bottom of the water heater.What you need to do is follow the manufactures recomendations to purge your tank of the sediment.

FIRST TURN OFF THE POWER TO THE TANK AND VERIFY IT IS OFF. One way is to close the hot water supply valve(if you have one) and connect a garden hose to the hose threaded valve on the bottom of the tank. Then open said valve WHILE the cold supply line is open. This will force the slimy material out of the bottom of the tank. MAKE DANG SURE the other end of the hose isnt pointing at the neighbors car or the Mrs prise roses (lol dont ask) If you dont have a hot supply valve.Have one installed. As you need to prevent the water/slime mix from rising to the top of the tank. Once you have removed most of the lime,shut off the supply water and drain the tank. You need to open the spring loaded lever on the Temp/ Presure relief valve. Usually on the side or top of the tank.Once the tank drains, refill and repeat if necessary.

I used to do this where I used to live every six months, very hard water. I was having to replace the bottom heat element about once a year before I started doing this. The first time I had to replace the hot water tank I installed a ball-type lever valve in the drain hole. The factory one's block alot of the crud from coming out and usually corrode up themselves. Made the job a lot simpler. I've even taken the valve out and run a metal rod into the tank to help break up the deposits. PITA, but it does work.

I wouldn't put anything in the pipes like acid, sounds like bad ju-ju to me. The gas pressure build up could easily exceed the systems ability to vent it.

Rob

[fatoldfool]

About the only really good answer is a water softening unit. Living in the middle of the limestone country I have the same problem, and get by with flushing the hot water tank occasionally. You can buy a unit and install it yourself for about 1/3 of the price the robbers want.

[jeepnik]

And now for a different suggestion. Tankless hot water heater. The reason tank type have the solids building up is that the temperature of the water is generally hotter than tankless systems. That's why folks add cold water to cool down the hot water before stepping into the shower. When the water is heated to the higher temperature, the calcium and magnesium hardness percipitate out (saturation point is reached) and settle to the bottom of the tank. The lower temperature, and the velocity of the water through the heat exchanger prevent the formation of the scale, unless you have some really hard water, then all bets are off regardless of what type of water heater you have.

[LeverBob]

AJ...take it from a gen.l contractor...

If your main feed lines (before the heater) have scaled up, replumb them. Schedule 40 pvc has a pressure rating of over 600 psi. They don't scale up, however, you have to check UBC & local building codes for their acceptance.

Lime & other deposits eat at the copper. Even if you are successful in flushing them, they won't last long. You'll get leak after leak.

You might consider installing a wtr. softening system before it leads to the in-house mains. Install directly after the main feed comes into the house. This will greatly enhance longevity of the piping & heater. If your using a Renai (SP?) european type instant heater, it will keep it free from scale & deposits. If you're not using that type, believe me, put one in. It will prolly still be working after your children pass on.

If you do install one of the softening systems, explore systems that do not use salt as a filtering medium. There is a bunch out there like that & they do a much better job.

Best to you & yours...

LB

[AJMD429]

Thanks for all the suggestions (this forum is full of all sorts of collective expertise!).

I actually was able to peek inside some of the pipes due to threaded joints I could un-do here and there, and the real issue is as several of you suggested - loose tank lime, and I plan to flush out the tank (We made an adapter for the lower heater threads to go to a flexible 2" hose when we flushed one in our house - chunks of lime go right out that baby!), and the other MAIN problem was a rubber washer in a valve had disintigrated and embolized downstream to the kitchen faucet innards. Replaced the washer, blew out the pieces, and all is flowing well for now.

Thanks...!

[jeepnik]

Sort of on topic, but just a little warning. The "whole house filter" units that use a carbon bed to remove chlorine and other nasty tasting stuff have become quite popular. And, while they don't soften the water, the top quality ones do just what they say they will do.

No here's the problem. Nasty little critters live in all water, even municipal water that is treated to the required standards. These critters will blow right past your carbon bed filter. And now you have water that does not have the chlorine residual required to keep their concentration within the safe range. While most folks run the water through the various faucets and such often enough to avoid problems, some have extra bathrooms that don't get used all that often. Herein lies the problem. The nasty little bugs begin to multiply in the stagnant areas. Then when you do use the tap, the water that first comes out you are exposes you to high concentrations of the critters.

The solution is simple. Flush the faucets and such regularly. If you haven't used a fixture for a couple of days, run the tap for at least five minutes before using the water.

Oh, by the way, the sales folks won't tell you about this when they sell you the filter system. But I bet they won't be willing to drink the water that comes out of stagnant faucet. They know, they just won't tell.

[AJMD429]

Interesting info on the carbon filters and germs that the dechlorinated water could support downstream.

We use no 'carbon' types, but have used a reverse osmosis unit at times.

[jeepnik]

Interesting info on the carbon filters and germs that the dechlorinated water could support downstream.

We use no 'carbon' types, but have used a reverse osmosis unit at times.

R.O. water from most home type systems is also chlorine free, as they usually have carbon filter upstream of the R.O. unit. So you can get the same problems plus one other.

Water is called the universal solvent. It will, in time, dissolve anything, through a combination of errosion and corrosion. The purer the water the more aggressivley it will attack solids. If you leave R.O. water standing in copper pipes, it will readily dissolve the copper, and the solder holding the pipes together. That's why most industrial R.O. systems use a combination of stainless steel and "plastics".

By the way, never make the mistake of putting that carbon bed filter downstream of the R.O. unit. You'd be digusted by the appearance of what will come out of the tap.