Dual-Use (Lever-Carbine/Revolver) Factory .357 Load

[Haycock]

Okay, so now... having spent my small hoard of "reloading money" on a carbine (1894) I am looking at ballistic data for factory loads to use in it and in my revolver.

To date I have been shooting WWB for practice and loading BuffaloBore heavies for business in the revolver, but after my last range session I am out of the WWB and after looking at BB prices again recently I am interested in finding a less costly alternative.

In the spirit of "two guns, one load" I've been looking at 158gr SP 357 factory loadings that are cost-effective enough to shoot a bunch of and lethal enough to hunt with.

I really, really like Sellier & Belot's 8x57 loading and shoot it exclusively in my Mauser. So, when I came across the S&B .357 product I searched for reviews on bullet performance. What I found, however, appeared to be inconsistent ballistic data.

Here is what I think I have figured out... please proof me...

1) Most ballistic-data hits on this show a MV of 1263fps from a 6" tube (5.9" if you do the metric to English conversion using data from S&B's site)

2) There are numerous references to this load producing a MV of 1394fps. Several of them specify that this is from a 7.5" tube.

3) Using the published trajectory data from the S&B site I calculate that the SP bullet they use has a BC of approximately .165.

Now... here's where it gets a little questionable.....

4) Assuming both velocity values are correct (BIG assumption) acceleration from 1263fps to 1394fps occurs between 5.9" and 7.5", yielding an additional 81.875fps per inch. Seems nuts.

5) Applying that value linearly would yield an estimated MV of 2294 from my 18.5" Marlin. Again, seems nuts.

6) Taking 30% off that (here is where I need input...) yields an estimated 18.5" MV of 2024fps. Seems within the realm of reality for an old-school load with comparable energy to the early, first-generation .357 loadings.

IF all of the above is accurate and reasonable, it would mean the energy & range of this load would look like this:

Carbine:
MPBR (+/- 3") 175yds / 622fpe (at 175yds)
0@12|.9@25/1.3@50/2.9@75/2.8@100/0@150/-3@175

Revolver:
MPBR (+/- 1.5") 90yds / 398fpe (at 90yds)
0@10|1@25/1.5@50/0@78/-1.5@90


Sorry for the long post, but does anyone have actual data on the speed of this load out of a carbine and/or insight into bullet performance?


Haycock

[Hobie]

I believe a factory load using the 158 gr. Speer Gold Dot is your best bet. You simply could not get me to DEPEND on S&B ammo in any cartridge. I find that the quality of their brass is too inconsistent and thus their crimps are inconsistent and thus their velocities are inconsistent. Further, the brass has little value among knowledgeable reloaders (I wouldn't knowingly buy any unless it is all there is and I have NONE).

The 158 gr. Speer GD works well at handgun AND rifle velocities. The brass used in the loaded ammo is consistently GOOD. Velocities are consistent although not the highest possible. The ammunition is accurate for those reasons (plus a good bullet). For those reloaders worried about Lil'Gun erosion just switch to H110/W296 (with appropriate loads).

[Haycock]

I believe a factory load using the 158 gr. Speer Gold Dot is your best bet. You simply could not get me to DEPEND on S&B ammo in any cartridge. I find that the quality of their brass is too inconsistent and thus their crimps are inconsistent and thus their velocities are inconsistent. Further, the brass has little value among knowledgeable reloaders (I wouldn't knowingly buy any unless it is all there is and I have NONE).

The 158 gr. Speer GD works well at handgun AND rifle velocities. The brass used in the loaded ammo is consistently GOOD. Velocities are consistent although not the highest possible. The ammunition is accurate for those reasons (plus a good bullet). For those reloaders worried about Lil'Gun erosion just switch to H110/W296 (with appropriate loads).

I haven't tried reloading it (yet), but the quality of the 8x57 brass seems really good... at least upon visual inspection. I have shot a bunch of it... never had a problem...

Isn't the issue with reloading the handgun brass the fact that the alloy contains some iron? Or, do you have personal experience with the S&B ammo shooting inconsistently?

From what I read, your GD sentiment is widely shared. The cost of the Speer ammo, though, is around double the cost of the S&B ammo.


Haycock

[Tycer]

Georgia Arms uses the 158 GD. Great ammo.

[Tycer]

Cancel that. They USED TO use Gold Dots, now they list Unicore.

[Warhawk]

A few years ago I was trying various factory ammo in my 1894c and found that the American Eagle 158 JSP load was very accurate, so bought up about a case of it and still have most of that.

Finding a true dual purpose load is going to start with making sure your load feeds reliably in the lever gun. I've got some SWC Gas Check cast bullets coming from Kooz, and am hopeful that I can work up an all purpose .357 load with these.

[pharmseller]

Haycock,
Check out this thread:

http://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewt ... 8d#p164011

I chrono'ed the American Eagle 158 grain JSP load from 3 different .357 mags.

P

[Hobie]

I believe a factory load using the 158 gr. Speer Gold Dot is your best bet. You simply could not get me to DEPEND on S&B ammo in any cartridge. I find that the quality of their brass is too inconsistent and thus their crimps are inconsistent and thus their velocities are inconsistent. Further, the brass has little value among knowledgeable reloaders (I wouldn't knowingly buy any unless it is all there is and I have NONE).

The 158 gr. Speer GD works well at handgun AND rifle velocities. The brass used in the loaded ammo is consistently GOOD. Velocities are consistent although not the highest possible. The ammunition is accurate for those reasons (plus a good bullet). For those reloaders worried about Lil'Gun erosion just switch to H110/W296 (with appropriate loads).

I haven't tried reloading it (yet), but the quality of the 8x57 brass seems really good... at least upon visual inspection. I have shot a bunch of it... never had a problem...

Isn't the issue with reloading the handgun brass the fact that the alloy contains some iron? Or, do you have personal experience with the S&B ammo shooting inconsistently?

From what I read, your GD sentiment is widely shared. The cost of the Speer ammo, though, is around double the cost of the S&B ammo.


Haycock

I don't know what the S&B brass alloy is but imagine it would be very close to the same in rifle or pistol brass. There is no reason that it would be otherwise. S&B brass I've used, pistol or rifle, has a tendency to split. It isn't too hard although annealing did seem to help (when it survived that first shot), there's some other problem. I have had whole boxes of S&B ammo go without a split but then had half a box split on the first firing. This isn't what I call dependable. It can be used but certainly isn't something I go looking for.

If cost is a major concern, get a Lee single-stage press, dies, scale and reload. Again, I recommend the Gold Dot for such all-around use.

[Lefty Dude]

The only way you will find a dual-use load is Handload.
Factory-fodder is loaded for handgun ballistics and is sold as such.

Good luck on your quest.

[Haycock]

Okay... so pharmseller's results are probably indicative of what I can expect from non-specialized (like BufBore) factory loads... and Hobie's comments on the S&B would counsel me away from their seemingly hotter product towards rolling my own due to quality issues....

Appreciate all the feedback, very much...

I guess I just need to suck it up and wait on nailing down a "go-to" load for this (once I get the thing back from being re-crowned) until I can roll it myself and make it work well for the revolver too.......

Just so I'm clear... have any of you guys actually clocked 158gr GD handloads? If so, what were the loads and the results?


Haycock

[Blaine]

Cheapo American Eagle 158s and Blazer 158s shoot real good for me. I would prolly use my handloaded 180s or 180 corecast for hunting because of the bear population and I usually have a bear tag on me.

[FWiedner]

The AE 158gr JSP have been my go-to dual-use general-purpose load for a few years now. I use them in my 1894C, my Ruger BH, and my GP100.

They are cheap enough for plinking and stout enough for hunting.

I haven't been disappointed yet.

[Buck Elliott]

.357 ammo loaded for high performance in a revolver will also give yoeman performance in a carbine. The .357 case just doesn't have enough capacity to fool around with too much, without really spiking pressures. Healthy doses of H-110/W-296 powder, or 4227 or 2400 will give you all you can get from that particular round, with bullet weights of 125- to 165-gr. weights.

The heavier bullet weights (180- to 200-grain) are very specialized loads for specific purposes.

[Haycock]

The AE 158gr JSP have been my go-to dual-use general-purpose load for a few years now. I use them in my 1894C, my Ruger BH, and my GP100.

They are cheap enough for plinking and stout enough for hunting.

I haven't been disappointed yet.

Have you taken any deer with it? If so, did you recover any bullets? What was the general performance?

Also, what assumptions do you make about trajectory? How do you sight in your carbine?


Haycock

[FWiedner]

I have taken a couple of White-tails with it in the 150lb range. Both were complete pass-throughs on broad-side shots. I've also killed several medium sized hogs with it. Neck shots, mostly. Killed a fair black-bear with a clean head shot.

I usually zero at 75yds and it's good for hunting out to about 125yds. In my experience it doesn't seem to matter whether you zero at 50, 75, or 100, the ballistics seem to be about the same. Performance drops off fast after about 120 yds.

[Hobie]

Jerry Baird used/uses the .357 Mag carbine with the 158 gr. Hornady XTP-FP. Kills deer. Andy _______ (crs, sorry) used it in Africa with run of the mill 158 gr. ammo. Old Ironsights has used it with cast bullets and decisive physical damage posted in this forum. Many kills, no lost game. Go back and re-read my previous comments. They are based on empirical data, not wishful thinking.

[Haycock]

Haycock,
Check out this thread:

http://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewt ... 8d#p164011

I chrono'ed the American Eagle 158 grain JSP load from 3 different .357 mags.

P

Same question for you, Pharmseller.... have you taken any game with the AE cartridge? If so, what was your experience with it?

Haycock

[Haycock]

Jerry Baird used/uses the .357 Mag carbine with the 158 gr. Hornady XTP-FP. Kills deer. Andy _______ (crs, sorry) used it in Africa with run of the mill 158 gr. ammo. Old Ironsights has used it with cast bullets and decisive physical damage posted in this forum. Many kills, no lost game. Go back and re-read my previous comments. They are based on empirical data, not wishful thinking.

Yup.... I'm clear on that. I wasn't questioning the caliber's capabilities... I was inquiring about the specific loading that Pharmseller and FWiedner were talking about (AE). Sorry if it sounded like I was ignoring your comments.

By the way, what's the story with the "erosion problem" with Lil'Gun that you made mention of?


Haycock

[Haycock]

I have taken a couple of White-tails with it in the 150lb range. Both were complete pass-throughs on broad-side shots. I've also killed several medium sized hogs with it. Neck shots, mostly. Killed a fair black-bear with a clean head shot.

I usually zero at 75yds and it's good for hunting out to about 125yds. In my experience it doesn't seem to matter whether you zero at 50, 75, or 100, the ballistics seem to be about the same. Performance drops off fast after about 120 yds.

Good to hear that the AE loads specifically performed well. Like the S&Bs, they do appear to cost about half as much as the higher end commercial cartridges (BB, Speer, etc.).

Thanks!


Haycock

[Hobie]

Jerry Baird used/uses the .357 Mag carbine with the 158 gr. Hornady XTP-FP. Kills deer. Andy _______ (crs, sorry) used it in Africa with run of the mill 158 gr. ammo. Old Ironsights has used it with cast bullets and decisive physical damage posted in this forum. Many kills, no lost game. Go back and re-read my previous comments. They are based on empirical data, not wishful thinking.

Yup.... I'm clear on that. I wasn't questioning the caliber's capabilities... I was inquiring about the specific loading that Pharmseller and FWiedner were talking about (AE). Sorry if it sounded like I was ignoring your comments.

By the way, what's the story with the "erosion problem" with Lil'Gun that you made mention of?


Haycock

I think this sums it up. I'm not convinced that it works the same way in rifles as in revolvers. Mr. Baker is more of an expert than me though and I won't say he's wrong. However, I can't say that I have that experience.

[pharmseller]

Haycock,
I have not hunted with any of my .357s. I'll let you know next October!

P

[Haycock]

Haycock,
I have not hunted with any of my .357s. I'll let you know next October!

P

Yup... it'll be then for me too!

Haycock

[Haycock]

Jerry Baird used/uses the .357 Mag carbine with the 158 gr. Hornady XTP-FP. Kills deer. Andy _______ (crs, sorry) used it in Africa with run of the mill 158 gr. ammo. Old Ironsights has used it with cast bullets and decisive physical damage posted in this forum. Many kills, no lost game. Go back and re-read my previous comments. They are based on empirical data, not wishful thinking.

Yup.... I'm clear on that. I wasn't questioning the caliber's capabilities... I was inquiring about the specific loading that Pharmseller and FWiedner were talking about (AE). Sorry if it sounded like I was ignoring your comments.

By the way, what's the story with the "erosion problem" with Lil'Gun that you made mention of?


Haycock

I think this sums it up. I'm not convinced that it works the same way in rifles as in revolvers. Mr. Baker is more of an expert than me though and I won't say he's wrong. However, I can't say that I have that experience.

Thanks, Hobie.

Haycock