1894 Winchester Sporting Rifle

[gizamo]

Sooooo.....,

Is this a deluxe or semi-deluxe?





giz

[pokey]

well, it's nice. but not deluxe.
just a 32ws [ judging by the rear sight] rifle,
with a pistol grip stock. special order, probably.

[gizamo]

So is it a special order Sporting Rifle?

giz

[pokey]

more info is needed for specific answers.
barrel length?
forearm length?
any special features your pic doesn't show?

looks like only one special order option[ pistol grip].
most winnies are judged by condition, and special order features.
rare calibers come into play at times as well. of course extra holes,
cut barrels, alterations of any kind, even factory, are usually
draw backs.

[cowboykell]

Deluxe would indicate checkered wood in my book.

[gizamo]

As the picture shows, no checkering. Personally, I like that feature.
26" Octagon Barrel. Standard forearm length. Only my takedowns are shorter then standard. You are correct that it has a .32 W.S. Smokeless rear sight. However the gun's SN range is to 1899.


giz

[LeverBob]

Who the heck cares, it's beoootifull. The classic configuration pard. Ya' did good, real good.

LB

[KirkD]

That is what collectors call a 'semi-deluxe'. It is the pistol grip that puts it into that category. If the wood was 3x and checkered, it would be 'delux'. I have a semi-delux Model 1886 with the same pistol grip stock, no checkering, plain wood.

[Malamute]

"Deluxe", in regards to this is more a figure of speech. 71's and 64's had "standard" and "deluxe" versions, but the regular, earlier models just had special order features, but I don't believe the factory termed them "deluxe". Collectors may, but I think its more of a selling point or figure of speech than correct period factory terminology. I believe the term "sporting rifle" falls into the same catagory.

Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't recall seeing anything in old information or Madis' book that had any formal "deluxe" models other than the 71's and 64 with checkering etc.

I would call it a model 1894 rifle with a 26" octagon barrel, full magazine, crescent butt, pistol grip stock, 32 Win Spl smokeless rear sight.

[mod71alaska]

I'd buy that from you in a heartbeat...whether standard or semi-dlx...if the price were fair!

[Mike D.]

yes, it is considered a "Sporting Rifle", as indicated by the plain pistol grip stock. The .32WS "Smokeless" sight was standard for the early 1894s in that caliber. The wood appears to be standard grade walnut, too. It is a nice gun, though, and if original would probably fetch close to $2Gs in today's market. If it had been either .32-40 or .38-55, then price would nearly double.

I looked closely at many Winchesters today, and was sort of dismayed by the extreme asking prices for some very marginal guns. Better condition '86, '92' and '94 rifles and carbines were ridiculously marked. Not much moved, believe me.

I very nearly went for another lightweight TD .45-90 1886. The price was OK, at $5900, but the 24" barrel threw me. Standard for all calibers except .33 was 22". I sat down to look closely with my 10X loupe and found that the gun had very cleverly been remarked .45-90WCF where .33 had been originally. The "new" caliber markings were done correctly, but just a tad crooked and slightly smaller than the W.C.F. letters. I kindly passed on the gun without saying anything negative to the owner who probably hadn't a clue. The gun's serial number was too high to letter, so no proof either way could have been determined.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you'd better be darned sure what you are throwing down green for these days. With the market being where it is on good Winchesters, you can expect a new run of "special" guns. Keep your eyes open and learn all that you can about the various models and in what configurations they were offered in. If you want to earn a good return on your investment steer clear of ANY guns that are reblued or have refinished wood. Wood to metal fit on all Winchesters was excellent, so any gaps should make you put on the brakes.

[gizamo]

My gun serial numbers to 1899. Yet I've been informed that Winchester didn't catalog this cartridge with the 94 until the early 1900's. One source above says 1902. But the Smokeless rear sight was patented in 1901.

Anyone know if it's possible to have a 1899 manufactured Model 1894, in 32WS....did serial numbers always ship in sequence or did receivers get marked and assembled later? Were there any early test guns?


giz

[Hombre]

gizamo...a very beautiful rifle.
If you want to have the correct mfg date on your rifle the best way is to have a factory letter on it. Unfortunately, George Madis dates are not correct when it comes to the model 1894 and also some other models.
When it comes to Winchester mod 1894 I have this information about the 32 W.S.

32 W.S. Rifle - serial number 107731, 10-5-1901
32 W.S. Carbine - serial number 142889, 5-10-1902 (first by date)

32 W.S. Carbine - serial number 22967, 8-27-1902 (first by serial number)

Best regards,
Stefan
Sweden

[rjohns94]

very beautiful rifle. enjoy

[KirkD]

"Deluxe", in regards to this is more a figure of speech. 71's and 64's had "standard" and "deluxe" versions, but the regular, earlier models just had special order features, but I don't believe the factory termed them "deluxe". Collectors may, but I think its more of a selling point or figure of speech than correct period factory terminology. I believe the term "sporting rifle" falls into the same catagory.

Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't recall seeing anything in old information or Madis' book that had any formal "deluxe" models other than the 71's and 64 with checkering etc.

I would call it a model 1894 rifle with a 26" octagon barrel, full magazine, crescent butt, pistol grip stock, 32 Win Spl smokeless rear sight.

Malamute sums it up. As I mentioned earlier, I have a Model 1886 that collectors call a 'semi-delux' because of its plain pistol grip, but the factory letter I received from Cody does not use that term. I've included a photo of the rifle below so that you can see an example of what the Winchester factory letter states is a 'Plain pistol grip stock'. Nowhere does it use the term 'semi-delux' on my letter. Your stock appears to be exactly the same (i.e., plain pistol grip stock'). As far as time period goes, this rifle was shipped in 1902.



One other thing: The Madis records for the Model 1894 are off by about 3 years during the turn of the last century. You need to add about 3 years to the Madis date, so your rifle was produced around 1902 or 1903. For example, I have a model 1894 .38-55 for which the Madis date is 1896, but the actual date it was entered into the warehouse, according to my factory letter, is 1899. A corrected list was published a year or so ago on the Winchester Collectors Forum.

[Mike D.]

Yep, Kirk is correct.

Kirk, are you going to obtain a copy of Bert and Larry's new book? I spoke with them both at Reno yesterday and the books are now available. Pretty much a lot of great information and an eye opener where prices are concerned. They both put a lot of effort into it.

Gixamo, PM me with the gun's serial number and I will get your info from Cody.

[Hobie]

Who is the publisher of the book and where might I find it?

[jlchucker]

A truly beautiful firearm. Lots of class to that rifle. Plain and elegant. Too beautiful to have ever been considered for manufacture by the classless and tasteless Connecticut/Madison Avenue bunch that infiltrated Winchester, and later, Marlin in the last 30 years or so. This particular rifle speaks of nothing but good taste. Hope you get a big one with it.

[Mike D.]

Who is the publisher of the book and where might I find it?

Hobie, the book is in softcover, spiral bound style and is titled "WINCHESTER/An Investment Option/ A Comparison Study of Fine Collectible WINCHESTERS and Gold as Hard Asset Options. By Dr Larry Shennum and Bert Hartman.

Bert is researcher, par excellence, who has studied the records at Cody in great detail for a number of years. Yesterday, he was running all over the floor at the Big Reno Show, garnering more data.

To find out how to order a copy you can email Larry at fishydr@centurytel.net or Bert at Win1885@msn.com. They will get one to you.

[gizamo]

Mike D

Thanks for the Cody offer...I have sent you a PM...

gizamo

[Mike D.]

No problem, I'll get it done on Monday. Jesi was supposed to be available today, but there was no response by land line. Probably busy with requests from Reno.

[Malamute]

I'm curious to see what the Cody info shows. It's a nice rifle.

I ran into the numbers thing on one of mine, the books showed one date, Cody told me something different. Seems like 3 years was about what the difference was.

[Hobie]

Thanks Mike, I've sent the e-mail.

[KirkD]

With regard to the proper dates the Model 1894's were received in the Winchester warehouse, I believe it was Bert Hartman that has done the research and that posted these dates on a thread in the Winchester Collectors forum. I cannot recall the title of the particular thread to provide a link to where the post was made, but I did copy the numbers. Here are the numbers that Bert posted for the Winchester Model 1894. The first number is the serial number of an actual known Model 1894, and the other numbers are the date it was entered into the warehouse. The asterisks are just acting as spacers, so ignore them. If you want a wealth of fascinating, well researched info on Winchester values, I'd recommend Bert and Larrys' just released book.

22 ** 10-20-1894
90 ** 12-7-1894
136 ** 11-1-1894
137 ** 11-14-1894
139 ** 11-14-1894
165 ** 12-8-1894
204 ** 12-5-1894
257 ** 11-13-1894
266 ** 11-12-1894
309 ** 11-6-1894
338 ** 1-5-1895
563 ** 11-21-1894
679 ** 11-24-1894
734 ** 2-2-1895
814 ** 12-8-1894
988 ** 12-10-1894
1296 ** 12-26-1894
1368 ** 12-29-1894
1673 ** 2-4-1895
1835 ** 3-5-1895
3314 ** 5-29-1895
3559 ** 4-26-1895
4762 ** 6-29-1895
4770 ** 6-15-1895
5014 ** 7-18-1895
5047 ** 9-6-1895
5579 ** 9-13-1895
5860 ** 8-29-1895
6506 ** 10-3-1895
7566 ** 10-17-1895
12695 ** 11-4-1896
12962 ** 7-30-1896
13135 ** 4-14-1896
14311 ** 7-28-1896
15315 ** 6-29-1896
15332 ** 8-7-1896
16259 ** 10-31-1896
16400 ** 10-26-1896
16582 ** 10-3-1896
17862 ** 12-16-1896
20041 ** 3-11-1897
20492 ** 8-30-1901
22905 ** 6-5-1897
25762 ** 10-13-1897
26639 ** 10-1-1897
27122 ** 10-27-1897
27158 ** 3-4-1902
28202 ** 10-25-1897
32192 ** 3-24-1898
32246 ** 1-27-1898
39555 ** 7-20-1898
46821 ** 8-30-1898
46831 ** 9-19-1898
47431 ** 9-29-1898
47856 ** 10-20-1898
48116 ** 10-22-1898
49796 ** 12-28-1898
49980 ** 12-19-1898
50840 ** 9-13-1899
54160 ** 9-8-1899
59367 ** 5-23-1899
59668 ** 5-22-1899
60584 ** 4-4-1899
61710 ** 5-8-1899
62652 ** 5-12-1899
64043 ** 8-10-1899
64406 ** 8-19-1899
64872 ** 9-1-1899
65056 ** 10-18-1899
67776 ** 9-26-1899
67952 ** 9-19-1899
70126 ** 10-19-1899
70788 ** 10-20-1899
71479 ** 11-4-1899
71560 ** 11-1-1899
74059 ** 11-24-1899
77924 ** 3-29-1900
78333 ** 9-12-1900
79036 ** 1-8-1900
84801 ** 3-24-1900
85741 ** 4-24-1900
85816 ** 6-20-1900
86623 ** 7-24-1900
87767 ** 9-1-1900
88624 ** 7-2-1900
89924 ** 12-28-1900
96800 ** 1-9-1901
97581 ** 4-25-1901
97869 ** 11-2-1900
98829 ** 3-1-1901
99126 ** 12-7-1900
100621 ** 8-3-1901
100994 ** 3-11-1901
107731 ** 10-5-1901
108346 ** 6-1-1901
109921 ** 5-25-1901
111524 ** 4-2-1901
112916 ** 4-24-1901
113997 ** 5-18-1901
115623 ** 10-22-1901
116570 ** 7-29-1901
118446 ** 8-6-1901
119046 ** 8-2-1901
119959 ** 2-5-1902
120238 ** 8-20-1901
122029 ** 9-27-1901
122466 ** 10-24-1901
124883 ** 10-17-1901
131497 ** 11-19-1901
139676 ** 3-14-1902
142899 ** 5-10-1902
145358 ** 7-29-1902
145643 ** 7-21-1902
146235 ** 9-2-1902
152631 ** 10-6-1902
154488 ** 10-16-1902
154905 ** 9-17-1902
155354 ** 10-25-1902
180787 ** 6-12-1903
182665 ** 7-20-1903
186261 ** 7-24-1903
187561 ** 8-17-1903
190079 ** 8-28-1903
199578 ** 12-5-1903
203012 ** 1-11-1904
206055 ** 3-4-1904
222901 ** 3-30-1905
227057 ** 7-15-1904
239193 ** 10-27-1904
240596 ** 5-9-1905
244142 ** 8-23-1905
249157 ** 12-24-1904
249665 ** 5-8-1905
250113 ** 2-5-1906
257652 ** 4-11-1905
259195 ** 4-22-1905
260056 ** 7-15-1905
261228 ** 9-5-1905
265717 ** 8-12-1905
274317 ** 8-24-1905
275004 ** 10-7-1905
276723 ** 9-25-1905
280853 ** 10-22-1906
282746 ** 4-25-1906
288514 ** 1-30-1906
299679 ** 4-2-1906
303891 ** 5-18-1906
304600 ** 7-21-1906
311946 ** 8-31-1906
313571 ** 9-14-1905
314210 ** 8-30-1906
314870 ** 9-11-1906
318034 ** 10-6-1906
324386 ** 11-24-1906
325531 ** 5-20-1907
327349 ** 12-12-1906
330989 ** 1-5-1907
335602 ** 2-2-1907
336447 ** 3-16-1907
340492 ** 3-7-1907
353136 ** 6-20-1907
353512 ** 11-4-1907

[gizamo]

Kirk,

Many thanks for posting the information. Based on my SN my gun falls in October of 1902. Here I was being told by books and other folks that it was from 1899 and must be a made-up gun from later parts. Whew.....


giz

[Modoc ED]

gizamo -

Since you've got a .32 Winchester Special, a lot of questions will come up about was it introduced as a Smokeless Powder or Black Powder round. Here is a copy of the official Winchester poster that introduced the .32 Winchester Special round.



That poster has the answers.

[pokey]

i too would like a copy of bert and larry's book.

perhaps we could have a link [sticky] to where/when/how much they are being sold[for].???

[Mike D.]

It has been posted in a couple of spots already.

[w30wcf]

According to the THE WINCHESTER MODEL 94 book by Robert Renneberg, the first rifle chambered in .32 Special was built on March 4, 1902.....serial #27,158. The serial # indicates that the receiver was made in 1897 but was not assembled into a rifle until 5 years later. Note that serial number is in Kirk's list.

MoDoc Ed,
THank you for that neat advertisement.

w30wcf

[gizamo]

Just wanted to thank all the folks that posted answers to my questions above. Makes a newbie feel right at home and among good friends. I like this place...

Think I'll pour a coffee and pull up a chair for awhile...


giz