Downloading 45-70

[perry owens]

Joined a new shooting club at the weekend. Nice bunch of people with a pretty range complex in the grounds of a country hotel in Hampshire. The downside is that the ranges have muzzle velocity and muzzle energy limits of 1675ft/s and 1496ftlb so I may have to download a bit if I want to use my 45-70s.I think black powder loads will be fine but I would like to try some smokeless as well (never thought I would be saying that!). I have Lyman 300 and 500grain moulds but the only smokeless powders I have to hand are 5744 and 2400. With powder running at equivalent US$55 a pound I would sooner use these if possible. I have a chrono but need some pointers towards starter loads. The guns are Browning 1886, 26in barrel and Shiloh 1874 Sharps, 30in barrel.
Perry Owens

[gundownunder]

Lees modern reloading gives a load of 25GR 2400 behind a 300GR jacketed for 1410 fps @ 16500CUP

27.9GR 5744 behind 300GR lead for 1405 fps to 31 GR for1597 fps and 18000 psi

500 GR lead and 22.5GR 5744 gives you 1063 fps up to 25GR for 1209 fps and 18000psi

Hope that helps

[txpete]

300 gr bullet and 28.0 grs AA5744 will work.I use that load with my 340 gr bullets and found it to be very accurate in my LTD II.
pete

[AJMD429]

Be sure that you also keep under their FPE limit; I don't know off the top of my head, but a big bullet like that wouldn't have to be going really fast to have 1496 ft-lb.

[Tycer]

If you want good bang for your buck, 13 grains of Unique under that 300 would be great.

[TedH]

If you want good bang for your buck, 13 grains of Unique under that 300 would be great.

+1

[Don McDowell]

25 grs of either powder, with either bullet should work well. You'll be pushing the fpe envelop, but as long as you're using fairly soft alloy it shouldn't damage the steel targets.
The 5744 will probably give you the accuracy edge, and the 2400 will be the velocity queen. At least that's the experience I've had.

[2X22]

If you want good bang for your buck, 13 grains of Unique under that 300 would be great.

Yup, I like Unique also. 11grs with a 300gr is awesome.

22

[Don McDowell]

I like 10 grs of unique, not that it makes any difference as the OP says all the smokeless he has on hand is 2400 and 5744

[Tycer]

I like 10 grs of unique, not that it makes any difference as the OP says all the smokeless he has on hand is 2400 and 5744

True, but IF he wanted to save his 2400 for the 357 and 38-40, a pound of Unique would go a long way.

And you are right, 10 gr is good for the little bitty 300s.

[Don McDowell]

I have ventured up as far as 16 grs with unique, but like the milder loads a bit better.

As a side note here was comparing notes and swapping lies with other shooters at the Big Hill Match in Baker Mt. this past weekend and discovered that 5744 has jumped a huge amount in price. The last batch I bought I got in 1lb cans for 14 and some change. Now Dakota Dick tells me the best he can find is 8lb kegs some place in Miles City for 129, but that same outfit wants 23 for a lb.

[Buck Elliott]

Muzzle Energy = Velocity squared X bullet weight in grains / 450240

[perry owens]

Thanks guys - a lot of your suggestd loads look like they will sneak in under the wire. I think I will start with 5744. Accuracy is what I need most but noise is good also, so I will trade for some Unique.
By the way, the energy limits are nothing to do with limiting target damage. Here in the UK all ranges are inspected by the military and they issue range certificates specifying MV and ME limits. How they calculate them is a mystery.
Perry Owens

[Cosmoline]

I've found that I get the best accuracy with cast bullets if I back off a bit on the charges.

[gundownunder]

To keep it inside your ft/lb ceiling according to my ballistics calculator you need to keep it under 1498fps for the 300gr and 1160fps for the 500gr.

[Travis Morgan]

Anyone know of a sub 300 gr. bullet for .45-70? My shootin' partner insists he wants a 250 gr. or so, but I can't find one. I keep telling him he oughta just get a smaller rifle if the .45-70 kicks too much!

[JReed]

Tell him to try round balls if he wants a light plinker.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Check out the 150gr. Collar button bullet.
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html
A friend Mike Nesbit shoots it in the .45-70 over 3 - 4 gr. Goex 3Fg Black (no filler, only load as such I ever have seen printed) for a small game load and claims it is just right.
Mike writes for a couple of BP magazines and knows his stuff.

[flatnose]

Perry,
Do they actually test your ammo to see if it is within their requirements?
How do they enforce it?

[perry owens]

Flatnose wrote:
Do they actually test your ammo to see if it is within their requirements?
How do they enforce it?

Probably not, but this is a new to me club so I am not sure. The ammo limits I quoted are for a range category called "Gallery Rifle". Although not specifically defined as such, gallery rifle is usually taken to mean pistol caliber lever actions and single shots, so if I turn up with an 1886 and a full-size Sharps eyebrows will be raised.
Perry Owens

[Travis Morgan]

Perry,
Do they actually test your ammo to see if it is within their requirements?
How do they enforce it?

You sound like the guy every gunclub wants to be rid of; guys like you are the reason the silhouette targets are shot all to hell despite cast bullet only rules, and we now keep them locked up except for matches.
Clubs have rules for a reason; we all like to shoot, especially the guys making the rules; they've been in the gun clubs long enough to be in a leadership role. Don't ruin it for everyone else.

[flatnose]

Thanks Perry, I was just curious.
Travis,
you are clearlly jumping to wrong conclusions. This is a type written forum and there is no sound, except for the noises in your head.
I am not sure if I have been to your range, and even if I have, I have not shot at your silhouette targets. I do not even shoot silhouette.
It would seem that you would be the type of person to ruin things for the majority. You are too eager to place blame on someone or anyone regardless of facts.
Its people like you that ruin it for the masses, in much the same way that gun laws are often passed. One bad apple and the orchard must be destroyed.
I am also well aware that gun clubs, and many other organizations have rules for a reason. No great revelation here.
You sound like you are a high ranking range officer, or a wannabe. Shopping mall cop maybe? Deluded police officer?
Then again, maybe its just voices that I hear in my own head.

[Travis Morgan]

Thanks Perry, I was just curious.
Travis,
you are clearlly jumping to wrong conclusions. This is a type written forum and there is no sound, except for the noises in your head.
I am not sure if I have been to your range, and even if I have, I have not shot at your silhouette targets. I do not even shoot silhouette.
It would seem that you would be the type of person to ruin things for the majority. You are too eager to place blame on someone or anyone regardless of facts.
Its people like you that ruin it for the masses, in much the same way that gun laws are often passed. One bad apple and the orchard must be destroyed.
I am also well aware that gun clubs, and many other organizations have rules for a reason. No great revelation here.
You sound like you are a high ranking range officer, or a wannabe. Shopping mall cop maybe? Deluded police officer?
Then again, maybe its just voices that I hear in my own head.

Idiot,

I came to this conclusion when you implied that that other fellow should just violate his clubs rules and shoot whatever he wants.
As for your guesses about me, they're all wrong. I AM an RSO,(at two clubs, as well as hunter safety and women on target days) but not a club officer. I'm one of the guys that shows up for range cleanup days, volunteers for youth days, helps the old guys cart their stuff around, and loans out guns with ammo to go with them.
It upsets me that people are constantly whining about not having any place to shoot, then trashing the places that are left. I just came from a gun club meeting that included, ONCE AGAIN, the report of more thefts. We've gotten to the point that we hardly mention people ruining our steel targets by shooting jacketed ammo at them, and we're darn sure not gonna replace them, even though our club could easily build a whole other range, and pay cash for it.
Eventually, there will be a club within a club; responsible, trusted people who take care of things and have the keys to everything, and the guys that only get full use when a match is going on. And it'll be thanks to guys like you, that think it's perfectly okay for them to just do whatever the hell they want, regardless of rules.

[Tycer]

Perry,
Do they actually test your ammo to see if it is within their requirements?
How do they enforce it?

You sound like the guy every gunclub wants to be rid of; guys like you are the reason the silhouette targets are shot all to hell despite cast bullet only rules, and we now keep them locked up except for matches.
Clubs have rules for a reason; we all like to shoot, especially the guys making the rules; they've been in the gun clubs long enough to be in a leadership role. Don't ruin it for everyone else.

Travis, what gives? It sounded like a simple question to me. Perry seems to be making an honest effort to load to club guidelines, but might have a bit of a challenge getting ALL the way down on ME and flatnose wanted to know if they actually tested the ammo.

Perry,

A soft slow bullet may carry a bit more ME than they require, but will do no damage to the metal targets. My 360 Dan Wesson with a hardcast 207 grain WFN bullet will absolutely destroy metal targets at 1340 ft lbs energy.

I would hazard a guess that their restrictions were designed for the more popular smaller caliber projectiles. A question posed to them with a few rounds downrange might work a treat.

360 Dan Wesson at 100 yds on a target rated for 44 magnum at 25yds. Hard to see, but that is a 1/8" deep divot. Matching goose egg on the reverse.

[Travis Morgan]

darn! Recoil's not too bad on that thing, is it? I've never gotten into the super velocity small calibers, other than some 2,000 fps neighborhood .357 loads and some 180 gr. silhouette loads in the same caliber.

[flatnose]

Travis,
I am attempting to follow this thread, but unless I am missing something, a reply you made was to Idiot. As far as I can tell board member Idiot does not appear in this topic anywhere.

[perry owens]

Hey everyone,
I started this thread because I needed some information which I knew was available from someone here. This was a new club to me and I was determined that I was not going to be the one to violate their range certificate and get them closed down. Several forum members came up with very useful information and for that I thank them, but then others turned the thread into a slanging match which added nothing to the fund of knowledge. If I think that a serious gun-related question is going to trigger such a reaction I don't believe I will bother to ask it in future.

Perry Owens

[Borregos]

Perry,
Not sure if you can get Trail Boss powder over there but it can give you what you need with both 300 and 405 grainers, the loads I use are pretty accurate too

[Chuck 100 yd]

I second the Trail boss suggestion. My .45-70 loads with trail boss are very soft @ 14 gr under 300-350 gr cast.
The sound is also very low and the lack of loud report even makes them seem softer hitting than they are.

[perry owens]

Re: Trail Boss. IMR powders are available here but nowhere near as common as Alliant and Hodgdon. Cost is equivalent to US$58 for a 500 gram tub.
Perry Owens

[Hobie]

Perry,
Do they actually test your ammo to see if it is within their requirements?
How do they enforce it?

You sound like the guy every gunclub wants to be rid of; guys like you are the reason the silhouette targets are shot all to hell despite cast bullet only rules, and we now keep them locked up except for matches.
Clubs have rules for a reason; we all like to shoot, especially the guys making the rules; they've been in the gun clubs long enough to be in a leadership role. Don't ruin it for everyone else.

In this instance the government as represented by some military personnel have set limits within which Perry is trying to comply. That is hardly the slob shooter methodology. The question as to whether or not they test ammo and how they might enforce the limits is a valid one. I was interested both from the technical standpoint and also to know if they actually fund the people necessary to enforce such a thing.

[Old Ironsights]

I have been given to understand that at some Steel ranges here in the US the RO can & does check for steel-core bullets with a strong magnet...

As for powder charges/velocity I don't see how it would be any harder for that same random round - checked for steel - to be shot over a chrono, with the assumption being that the RO picked random round would be representative of that lot off ammunition, and that any new ammunition retrieved during the shoot would be similarly subject to test.

Annoying, but immenently doable... just like the weapons safety check to see if someone has an "illegal for competition" 3/4oz trigger...