Curious about CCW Stance

[Old Ironsights]

.... JMHO but its smarter to be loud, make waves trying to get things rectified & obey the law while doing so. Would really stink to be pro gun & not able to own one legally.

And there is the best answer all day.

Though I do suppose that, if push came to shove, there are a couple of States where a Felon can own/shoot Muzzlestuffers.

I could manage with a couple of Pedersoli Doubles (Rifle & Shot) and C&B Sixguns if I had to...

But the whole 18,922(g) thing is a stinking load anyway. It's far too easy to be a "felon" both without doing anything genuinely wrong (tax errors...) or without maliciously hurting anyone.

Malum Prohibitum vs. Malum in Se...

[Leverdude]

When I first got my first CCW there was none of this controversy going on. I was just 18 years old back then in the 60s. I've had one ever since. Is it right, no. Is it legal, IMHO No! But the State of Washington disagrees. At least we are a shall issue with no classes required. I open carry mostly now, but here in Washington State to carry in a vehicle you have to have a CCW. Oh, most are probably unaware but Open Carry is legal in all but 6 States. For more info go to;

http://www.opencarry.org/

Now that's a curious law to me. You said, ".............but here in Washington State to carry in a vehicle you have to have a CCW."

So, if you are at home and decide that you want to go to the range to shoot, you can't just put your handgun in the trunk of your car or in a locked container in your truck and transport the gun to the range without a CCW? Not being argumentitive here Bear -- just trying to clarify it in my mind. You also said once before that if you are open carrying on the street and then get in your car that you needed a CCW permit in the car. What if you were open carrying and took the gun off and put it in the trunk? Would you still need a CCW permit?

Or having said all that, are you talking about carrying the gun on your person in a vehicle even if the gun is in plain sight as in a holster on your hip.

I aint Bear Ed & I'm sure he'll answer you shortly. I think the key is carry. I know in NH I can carry in the open but I cant have a loaded gun in the car unless I get a permit. I can bring it anywhere but its supposed to be unloaded & cased. WA is probably the same. If your carrying it you need to unload it & put it away before driving just like a long gun. I'll get a permit up there when I get around to it but its not been an issue I worry about.

Gun laws dont need to make sense. Here in CT I can carry concealed or not. Openly causes uproars alot but folks are charged with disturbing the peace or something similar, no gun charge because its legal.
I carry concealed because I cant afford the fight to prove I dont need to. But I can carry any handgun anywhere its legal & drive while carrying. But, its against the law for me to have a loaded rifle in the car & some have gone so far as to say even a loaded pistol is illegal if its not on my person. I'm still trying to find out if I'm legal with my gun between the seats or not. Every cop I asked said they would be cool with it but that dont mean its legal.

[Cosmoline]

You have to realize a PROPERLY TRAINED person can and will take your gun.Now if the guy just walks up to you and BANG,then your dead.But if he is within a certain distance and says give me your money?I will give him my money

Of course you give him the money. Then when his back is turned you draw and put bullets into his spine and head until he drops the gun or drops unconscious. It's not about the money, it's about doing whatever it takes to end the threat as soon as possible. That's how it's done up here, anyway. I guess back east they consider that too unfair to the criminals. Up here, if he has iron in hand and has threatened you with it illegally, he's an imminent deadly threat and you owe no duty to give him a "fair fight" face to face, no duty to warn him you're armed and no duty to be a nice guy. You do whatever you have to do to come out breathing and above ground.

[Leverdude]

You have to realize a PROPERLY TRAINED person can and will take your gun.Now if the guy just walks up to you and BANG,then your dead.But if he is within a certain distance and says give me your money?I will give him my money

Of course you give him the money. Then when his back is turned you draw and put bullets into his spine and head until he drops the gun or drops unconscious. It's not about the money, it's about doing whatever it takes to end the threat as soon as possible. That's how it's done up here, anyway. I guess back east they consider that too unfair to the criminals. Up here, if he has iron in hand and has threatened you with it illegally, he's an imminent deadly threat and you owe no duty to give him a "fair fight" face to face, no duty to warn him you're armed and no duty to be a nice guy. You do whatever you have to do to come out breathing and above ground.

Got nothing to do with East or west. If you shoot a retreating man in the back repeatedly until he dies theres not many places between the Pacific & Atlantic you wont be charged with something, probably murder. Kinda hard to say you are in eminent danger from a man running the other way. I agree you do what you need to stay alive but in this scenario you did that by giving him what he wanted.
now, that said, I wouldn't convict you, but your chances of getting 12 folks like me on a jury are slim to none. Never been chosen yet.

[Cosmoline]

If he's armed and has threatened me and is within range he's an imminent threat to my life. "Your money or your life" is not a binding contract.

you did that by giving him what he wanted.

Absolutely not. It has NOTHING to do with the money. The money doesn't protect me, and it doesn't keep him from following through and killing me dead. This is not a bargain or exchange of services.

Now if he takes my money, THROWS AWAY HIS FIREARM and walks away I cannot shoot him because he is no longer an imminent deadly threat. I could however kick him in the groin until hie gives me back my property. How many muggers toss their weapon after getting the money? How many even let the victim live?

Kinda hard to say you are in eminent danger from a man running the other way

Not really. If he's armed all he has to do is fire back at me. It would take him a fraction of a second to do so, he has threatened to do so and for all I know he will do so. I'm not obligated to roll those dice if I don't have to. He can save himself at ANY time by tossing away his firearm. If he does so, then I will not shoot him. Unless and until he does so he remains an imminent, unlawful deadly threat to me and I will shoot him the first opportunity I get. Not to recover the money, but to save my life. I can only use non-deadly force to recover the money.

[madman4570]

Cosmo,

Man I hear ya and I respect you thoughts on this.
But Leverdude is right on the money with this one.
If you shoot that dude in the back walking away from you with your money and his weapon not pointed at you,and you shot him in the spine etc. and there are witnesses "your toast".
In the East even in your locked home at night.You have to show that you ATTEMPTED to escape from the burglar if a means was possible.They will re-enact the crime scene.If you dont kill him and cripple him he will sue you,if you kill him,his relatives will sue you.
Average cost even if you are in the right will cost you in excess of $50,000 legal costs.
Man if you give the guy your money and he takes it and walks away
let him go.Report it ASAP,but dont shoot him in the back and doing it repeatedly??It will cost you more than you think.Now say that guy comes from a total criminal family.A year or two later one of them
offs your whole family for pay back.Man it aint worth it.
Double check your areas laws----Killing someone is a BIG DEAL!!!

[shdwlkr]

dbw
I had a permit in a state I lived in for over 30 years and gave it up and haven't had one for almost 7 years and I am getting another one in the state I currently live.
Why
first the way I dress I would almost always be classified as concealed carry
Second I like to go out in the boonies and you never know what will come up on you
third I have a large family at home yet and most are handicapped and i have grand kids I want to see grow up
fourth If the law says I have to be trained to carry then that is fine with me and I have almost 5 classes yet to take and then I will almost be trained.
fifth if you are going to carry you had better be legal
sixth if you carry you have to be ready to take another's life and live with the knowledge that you did it
seventh even churches are not a safe place to be anymore
eighth I have seen the bad side of humanity and I don't wish to be a victim if there is anything I can do to prevent it
ninth even the bible says to do all we can do to protect, educate and advance ourselves
tenth freedom is not free and if you are a sheeple you will loose it one day but those like me who understand the cost of freedom will have long since been removed from the living.

[madman4570]

Very Interesting Points!!!!!!!

[madman4570]

DBW,
After that full page of stuff I wrote prior I wanted to reread your question again.
Do I feel right about the CCW permit?
I believe the Second Amendment should be all you need,except
I will be truthful I need to actually read the whole Second Amendment.If in that Amendment it clarifies that the BAD PEOPLE (Felons,Insane people,Non Citizens,etc should not have them then YES thats enough,but dont we need some type documentation that proves in a fast manner we are GOOD Citizens.Can you enlighten me on what it really states other than (A well regulated militia can bear arms)and yes I feel when they state militia they mean we the PEOPLE!!!

In the near future I have some questions on this States Ruling
over Federal on Gun Rights.I HOPE this is not some type setup trap that maybe could backfire on us.like New York State making its own Gun Laws,How do we know for SURE they might not be worse than what we presently have.I know next to nothing on this topic???