Handload misfire question--HELP!!

neil mitchell · Post by **neil mitchell** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:31 am

Getting misfires in my 336 30-30 handloads. New Win brass,CCI magnum primers.
After a misfire I pull hammer back and pull trigger again ,still no fire.
I have tried to fire rounds this way 3-4 times and still no fire.I have tried the rounds (after 1-2 misfires) in my other 336 and they still won't fire.The primers on these rounds have a very deep crater in them. The primers are now recessed in the brass .007-.011.
Have I got some bad primers (they are new),are the primer pockets cut too deep (Win brass is also new) ?
I use Hornady One-Shot lube inside case necks ,is this the problem?

HELP!

Neil

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:53 am

Sounds like the primers are getting hit just fine so I would guess primer contamination from the one shot lube enough liquid residue left from sizing to get into primer after seating. I prefer to use the LEE lube in the tube applied with a q-tip, not a fan of aerosol lubes.

1886 · Post by **1886** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:54 am

Sounds like primers were contaminated at some point. You state that the primers are heavily dimpled and did not fire in two different rifles so primers are probably bad. Easy enough to test just try a different batch of primers. Good Luck. 1886

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:57 am

I would say one of two things are happening here.

1) You are contaminating your primers when you are priming your cases.

2) Your Hornady One-shot is contaminating your loads.

When I first started reloading (about 25 yrs ago) I had a series of misfires with some 25-20's. I was using CCI primers, and was handling them to put them in my priming tool. Well, come to find out, just the oils from your hands can contaminate primers...use tweezers if you have to physically touch them.

Several months ago, we experienced a series of hangfires and wild velocity variations. I know that Hornady advertises that their lube won't contaminate powder or primers, but I don't believe them based on my experience with their lube. I would suggest if you have to use that lube, you let the cases dry overnight before priming or throwing powder.

Ed

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:58 am

You've either got a bad batch of primers, or they got contaminated.

When next you size your cases clean them after sizing and expanding. BEFORE you prime them.

That's what I do.

Just for my curiosity why are you using mag primers in a 30-30?

Joe

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:01 am

I hate to say this, Neil, but did you pull down the rounds and check to make sure there was powder in them? Happens to the best of us, you know!

neil mitchell · Post by **neil mitchell** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:03 am

I have used 2 different lots of CCI primers. Unfortunately, that is the only brand available in Lufkin right now.I do plan on getting some Win or Federal primers when I can find some.
Hornady One-Shot is not SUPPOSED to contaminate primers/powder.

Neil

neil mitchell · Post by **neil mitchell** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:10 am

I have pulled the bullets and there IS powder in them.
I am using mag primers because that is what is called for in my Speer manual.
I will quit using the One-Shot lube.

Neil

Keep the suggestions coming , they all help me (or somebody else)!

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:24 am

Hmmm.
Do you resize them before cleaning them in a tumbler?

I'd say if you are lubing and resizing them just befvore you prime them, some of the lube is getting to the primer.

I lube the outside and just a little gets in the case, and not intentionally.
It's enough.

I don't spray them, I spray the lube pad and roll them in it. Never had a problem with resizing; never got a case stuck.

Heck, I don't even lube my .357 brass because the dies are carbide. All I have to do is visually inspect the inside of the die for dirt/debris and start.

Let us know how it works out for you!

Comal Forge · Post by **Comal Forge** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:28 am

Any type of light oil can contaminate primers. I have reloaded for 30 years and made thousands of rounds with only two misfires during that time. One was a pistol round that I could not trace the root cause to but suspect it was handling primers with oil on my fingers. The second was a rifle round and it was probably contaminated by WD40 that I had sprayed on the rifle after hunting in the rain. WD is so thin that it will wick into a primer pocket through capillary action. I personally NEVER use any type of lube inside the case as it will often migrate into the primers. I came to this conclusion after witnessing an incident with a friend who had loaded 20 rounds of 45-70 BP ammo with lube cookies under the bullet, then stored them in a hot garage. He took them to the hunting lease a year later and none of the rounds would fire. We pulled the bullets and saw that the black powder was caked and the cookies had disappeared. The lube had killed both powder and primer - complete duds.

neil mitchell · Post by **neil mitchell** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:42 am

Scott ,I have never used a tumbler,guess I need to get one.
Comal Forge, I too have reloaded for 30yrs and never had a miss-fire til now.
What I don't understand is I have reloaded hundreds of .308, .270 , .22 Hornet rounds this summer with NO missfires. I used the One-Shot lube inside the necks of ALL of them because I use Lee collet neck sizer dies on all these (I full length size the 30-30's).
So,you can see my quandary!

Neil

Edit:I DID NOT use the lube inside the necks of my other cartridges.
My Bad

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:57 am

Another thing that, I didn't see mentioned, which is very likely the problem, or at least it has been a problem for me, years ago, is crushing the primers when seating them, espacally small rifle primers.

The 30/30 was the first caliber I ever reloaded and I had some problems with misfires, then. Are you priming them with the main resizing press? With a press you have so much leverage it is very easy to crush a primer, while seating it, and not relizing it.

It's much better to use a hand primer like RCBS's model with the tray that will hold a hundred primers. If done right, one never has to touch a primer and you can feel the primer being seated, and at the same time, decrease the chance of crushing a primer.

I don't know about the problems with the One Shot Lube, I have used it exclusively for several years and I always spray at an angle to hit the inside of the necks at the same time, then wipe every case after resizing and usually imeadiately prime and load afterwards, and I have not had any problems with misfires, that I can trace back to the One Shot Lube.

Never store WD-40 in the same areas as primers, but as far I am concerned you never spray WD-40 on a gun anyway, but that is a debate for another thread.

Also, not seating the primer to the bottom of the primer pocket will sometimes cause a misfire, as the first hit will not be as solid hit, because the primer will move a tiny amount.

Also a light hit on the primer will often ruin the primer compound, and after that you can click on it until you have deformed the primer with many hits and it will never fire, however of course, sometimes a second hit will make a round fire. You just never know.

Improper headspacing of the round in the chamber can also cause misfiring but that shouldn't be a problem with the rimmed case of the 30/30, however it can be a problem with a round like the 35 Whealan, if the dies are not carefully adjusted, and I have had problems with a 45ACP Ruger Convertable revolver with some factory ammo that would chamber too deeply in the chambers. I found the Ruger Convertable to be very brand picky on what would work right. in the 45ACP cylinder.

Sorry about the long post.

neil mitchell · Post by **neil mitchell** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:13 pm

Lastmohecken,I used the RCBS hand primer on all these reloads. Never a problem before.
I used the "poor man's" method I got on another forum to check headspace on this gun and my other 336 and they were both fine.
My original thought was light firing pin hits.(that's what it looked like to me).I have buffed the firing pin a couple times.The pin was slightly bent(I noticed this the umpteenth time I had it out).It had about a .0015 bow in it.I beat most of that out and pin slides freely now.I lubed it with a little graphite.I have buffed the hammer sides and pivot hole (was very rough),buffed the pivot screw and added one washer to hammer strut to increase tension.
What have I missed ?
Since I am retired I have plenty of time to try things out.

Neil

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:16 pm

Pull down several of the loaded rounds @ random (but note where they were in relation to failed loads if you keep them in some semblence of order; otherwise, it don't matter), decap, place the primer (anvil down) on a clear section of concrete and whack the snot outta them with a framing hammer!

If none of this group go BANG

, pull down the entire batch. Compare coloring of primer media to new batch or for a coating. If none found, return to seller for refund, let them worry about CCI refunding their costs.

Get some plain ol' Large Rifle primers, load some using the same method you used w/this batch. Load some w/o inside neck lube. Test fire.

JMNSHO, BUT... there ain't a .30-30 load that NEEDS Magnum primers outside of some Silhouette loads in guns made for higher pressures than the leverguns. What the heck powder were you using?

neil mitchell · Post by **neil mitchell** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:21 pm

Griff ,I am using W748 which calls for mag primers in most manuals for most any cartridge.

Neil

neil mitchell · Post by **neil mitchell** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:53 pm

Well, it's about Noon here in East Texas so I'm headed to the woods to my woodworking shop/shooting range.I think I have a few Federal LR primers I'll tryout.
I'll report results this evening.
All suggestions are welcome.

Thanks
Neil

john4me05 · Post by **john4me05** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:26 pm

Im with J Miller... Always retumble your brass for a while after lubing and sizing... It removes the remaining lube and the powder wont stick to the case mouth and there wont be any contaminating lube left near the primers on inside that could dampen the powder.. Takes a bit longer but worth the insurance

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:01 pm

Make sure the safety is fully clear of the hammer drop and allowing the occasional light hit.

Scraping the magnum primers with 748 will also help the world go round much smoother.

Comal Forge · Post by **Comal Forge** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:05 pm

Neil,

Based on your past experience and description of events, I'd say you got a bad batch of primers. Hopefully, this next group will not give trouble.

Good luck, Hollis

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:53 pm

Yes, I tend to agree, now. It's probably a bad run of primers. Plus I have never been a big fan of CCI primers, anyway. I have had more misfires with CCI then any brand.

Back in the days when I shot IPSC and Hunter Silouette in the 80's, we would tune our revolvers with a lighter hammer spring and while Federals and Winchesters, or Remingtons would work fine, CCI's were usually harder and would definately cause problems on a gun with a lighter hammer fall.

I usually reserved my CCI's for my 45 autos because I usually didn't end up using a lighter mainspring in those weapons and the CCI's worked ok. But normally unless they were a lot cheaper I didn't buy that brand, opting for one of the other three choices and still do.

miestro_jerry · Post by **miestro_jerry** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:08 pm

I agree with the possibility of contaminated primers, I don't use aerosols around my reloading because of fears of such things happening.

Jerry

neil mitchell · Post by **neil mitchell** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:48 pm

Well ,I pulled the bullets on 9 misfires and deprimed all my new brass and discarded the CCI primers.Loaded up a few rounds with Winchester LR primers and had no misfires.(I know I haven't shot enough to prove anything yet but I'll load and shoot more this week).
According to my chrono the velocity is same as the magnum primers so I think I'll use regular LR from now on.Accuracy was good also.
Thanks to everybody for all the suggestions and help. Sometimes you can overlook the obvious and need to be reminded of all the options.
I'll report back later in the week after firing a hundred rounds or so.

Neil

Comal Forge · Post by **Comal Forge** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:54 pm

I agree on the CCI problem - I typically use Winchester for any type of primer: rifle, pistol or shotgun. I used to load Federal Mag Rifle Primers in my .338 Win but don't own it anymore. Winchester works fine for me on any caliber plus I no longer buy Mag primers as I think they are a waste of money.

Slick13 · Post by **Slick13** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:57 pm

neil mitchell wrote:Griff ,I am using W748 which calls for mag primers in most manuals for most any cartridge.

Neil

I can't get into Hodgdon's reloading center right now, but I'm sure they list regular large rifle primers with 748 in the .30-30, not magnum.

~Michael

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:04 am

No offense intended, but, could they possibly be large pistol primers? They aren't as thick, so I could see how this could conceivably happen.

cecil · Post by **cecil** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:17 am

Have had very good results with 748 and Fed Mag primers in limited 30-30 testing. Also used 748 and Fed mag primers for 307 loads, with excellent results (130,150 and 170 speer fnsp). Speer 13 lists 748, with mag primers. However they seem to have mixed up the 30-30 130 and 150 load listings with 748.

Haven't tried the same loads with just standard Fed primers or different bullets. Can't really say if the bullets, powder or whatever are making for the load's accuracy and velocity. So really can't say if the mag primers are needed or not.

Once tried CCI large pistol primers in Win 44 special brass. Using a RCBS hand primer, it was difficult to get them seated. The CCIs had measurably wider diameter than Fed LP primers.

cutter · Post by **cutter** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:47 am

This is interesting.

A few weeks ago , I loaded about two hundred 45Colt rounds. I ran out of Winchester primers early, and had to finish with CCI primers.

I had several misfires, from that batch.

Well, I just checked the bullets that misfired, they all have CCI primers.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:59 am

Just last week I had a batch of misfires in my old Marlin 44-40 with CCI primers, I know it was not lube contamination as I tumble after sizing, all primer hits were normal, I just reckon I got a bad batch. I never normally use CCI but thats all that was available at the time.