My planned ballistics test project

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:26 pm

As soon as the weather thaws things out again, I'm planning on conducting a series of terminal ballistics tests of every cartridge I can get my hands on. I'm thinking of using the 30-30 as a sort of control round.

I notice a lot of terminal performance tests post results from a range of a few yards at most. I kind of want to see what bullets do when they impact at a variety of ranges.

I've started a savings fund for test materials. Any requests or suggestions?

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:45 pm

I WOULD NOT WANT TO DISCOURAGE YOUR ENTHUSIASM IN ANY WAY BUT FOR OTHER THAN YOUR OWN EDIFICATION ANYTHING YOU DO ALONG SUCH LINES WILL DUPLICATE THAT WHICH HAS BEEN KNOWN WELL FOR MANY YEARS. THE 30-30 IS THE OLDEST OF SPORTING WHITE POWDER CARTRIDGES AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO IMPROVE IT, NOTHING TO IMPROVE IT'S BULLETS, AND NOTHING YOU CAN SHOOT WITH IT THAT HASN'T BEEN SHOT A THOUSAND TIMES BEFORE. IT IS A T-TOALLY KNOWN QUANTITY.
HAVING WORKED FOR TWO AMMUNITION COMPANIES I WILL NOTE HERE THAT EVEN THEY RARELY--RARELY!!!--COME UP WITH ANYTHING NEW AND ALL THEY DO TODAY WAS KNOWN BY THE EARLY YEARS OF THE 20th CENTURY.
NOW, YOU GO DO WHATEVER IT IS THAT HAS GRABBED YOUR ENTHUSIASM AND HAVE A HELL OF A GOOD TIME DOING IT. IF YOU DO DISCOVER SOMETHING NEW AND UNKNOWN I WILL BUY YOU THE BIGGEST STEAK IN SOUTH DAKOTA AND ALL THE BEER YOU CAN DRINK. I GET TO GO ALONG.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:56 pm

Terry Murbach wrote:I WOULD NOT WANT TO DISCOURAGE YOUR ENTHUSIASM IN ANY WAY BUT FOR OTHER THAN YOUR OWN EDIFICATION ANYTHING YOU DO ALONG SUCH LINES WILL DUPLICATE THAT WHICH HAS BEEN KNOWN WELL FOR MANY YEARS. THE 30-30 IS THE OLDEST OF SPORTING WHITE POWDER CARTRIDGES AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO IMPROVE IT, NOTHING TO IMPROVE IT'S BULLETS, AND NOTHING YOU CAN SHOOT WITH IT THAT HASN'T BEEN SHOT A THOUSAND TIMES BEFORE. IT IS A T-TOALLY KNOWN QUANTITY.
HAVING WORKED FOR TWO AMMUNITION COMPANIES I WILL NOTE HERE THAT EVEN THEY RARELY--RARELY!!!--COME UP WITH ANYTHING NEW AND ALL THEY DO TODAY WAS KNOWN BY THE EARLY YEARS OF THE 20th CENTURY.
NOW, YOU GO DO WHATEVER IT IS THAT HAS GRABBED YOUR ENTHUSIASM AND HAVE A HELL OF A GOOD TIME DOING IT. IF YOU DO DISCOVER SOMETHING NEW AND UNKNOWN I WILL BUY YOU THE BIGGEST STEAK IN SOUTH DAKOTA AND ALL THE BEER YOU CAN DRINK. I GET TO GO ALONG.

I think I was unclear about my methodology. I do not intend to improve upon the 30-30, but to use its performance as a barometer by which to gauge the performance of other rounds. The reason for this is, of course, that the 30-30 has accounted for untold numbers of dead deer and other large game. For instance, how do a variety of .357 mag loads fired from a carbine compare to a factory .30-30 load?

Anyway, recovering bullets is just cool for the same reason a penny that has been crushed by a train is cool.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:57 pm

The 30-30 as a control is a good idea as Terry said it is a well know constant. How about some .45colt out to 150yrds from a lever?

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:04 pm

JReed wrote:The 30-30 as a control is a good idea as Terry said it is a well know constant. How about some .45colt out to 150yrds from a lever?

Well, I don't have a .45 colt, but if I can get a loaner I'll definitely test it. Unfortunately, since I'm not an exceptionally wealthy man, I'll be limited to the guns I own.

.357 mag
.44 mag
45/70

I have a good friend with a .30-30 I can borrow for the control test.

I've got it in my head that I must have a .35 whelen, so it's next on this list.

86er · Post by **86er** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:44 pm

If you want to come to TX I will give you a couple of dead cows, or in the Spring a several hundred pound shark to do some real testing with.

cutter · Post by **cutter** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:49 pm

86er wrote:If you want to come to TX I will give you a couple of dead cows, or in the Spring a several hundred pound shark to do some real testing with.

A SHARK!

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:55 pm

86er wrote:If you want to come to TX I will give you a couple of dead cows, or in the Spring a several hundred pound shark to do some real testing with.

I'm actually planning on investing in some of those bullet test tubes. They can be recast and reused almost infinitely. Thanks for the offer, though.

cutter · Post by **cutter** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:55 pm

After a close friend missed a deer this year by shooting a vine, I've been planning my own "brush tests" for this spring.

Basically, measuring the deflection of a few specific rounds after passing through brush.

I know these tests have been done, but not to my satisfaction. I want to know how far off course the rounds will go. I am aware nothing will survive hitting an obstacle, I want to know what happens to the bullet after.

Do you want to share notes?

crs · Post by **crs** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:08 pm

To Terry Murbach:
I notice you are in the Black Hills. Anywhere near Lead? I hunted mule deer up there many years ago. We drove our rented motor home right up into the hunting area and our guide came by every day with his jeep station wagon and hauled us around and set us out to hunt . We had one hexx of a time and shot a bunch of deer. Great country.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:24 pm

cutter wrote:After a close friend missed a deer this year by shooting a vine, I've been planning my own "brush tests" for this spring.

Basically, measuring the deflection of a few specific rounds after passing through brush.

I know these tests have been done, but not to my satisfaction. I want to know how far off course the rounds will go. I am aware nothing will survive hitting an obstacle, I want to know what happens to the bullet after.

Do you want to share notes?

Sure. I've read that brush right in front of the target might not result in a miss, but brush closer to the shooter probably will. testing that might be interesting.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:40 pm

Jason, Sounds like a good project. We will be needing a full report.

Cutter, About 20 or so years ago there was a test done in one of the major gun mags about deflection just as you want to do. It was very interesting.
The guy made a wooden frame with holes drilled on all four sides through those wooden dowels were placed. Too tight for a bullet to get through without hitting a dowel but loose enough to see the target beyond. many calibers were tested and surprisingly the ones touted as brush busters
(.45-70.38-55..35Rem etc.)gave the most deflection. The best in the test was the .243 Win. The 6mm bullets were the least effected by cliping a dowl.
I would be interested to see that one ran again! Report your findings PLEASE!

1886 · Post by **1886** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:44 pm

A little self edification never hurt anyone. Have fun and good luck. 1886.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:58 pm

I thought a test would be interesting with a kind of pendulum that would react to bullet hits by swinging backwards when hit. It would have to have a ratchet mechanism on it to hold it in place when it reaches it's furtherest point backwards. After hitting steel to see the available power it would also be nice to replace the steel target with something that would slow the bullets down to find out how much of the energy was actually transfered to the target.

Rusty <><

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:24 am

Terry Murbach wrote:I WOULD NOT WANT TO DISCOURAGE YOUR ENTHUSIASM IN ANY WAY BUT FOR OTHER THAN YOUR OWN EDIFICATION ANYTHING YOU DO ALONG SUCH LINES WILL DUPLICATE THAT WHICH HAS BEEN KNOWN WELL FOR MANY YEARS. THE 30-30 IS THE OLDEST OF SPORTING WHITE POWDER CARTRIDGES AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO IMPROVE IT, NOTHING TO IMPROVE IT'S BULLETS, AND NOTHING YOU CAN SHOOT WITH IT THAT HASN'T BEEN SHOT A THOUSAND TIMES BEFORE. IT IS A T-TOALLY KNOWN QUANTITY.
HAVING WORKED FOR TWO AMMUNITION COMPANIES I WILL NOTE HERE THAT EVEN THEY RARELY--RARELY!!!--COME UP WITH ANYTHING NEW AND ALL THEY DO TODAY WAS KNOWN BY THE EARLY YEARS OF THE 20th CENTURY.
NOW, YOU GO DO WHATEVER IT IS THAT HAS GRABBED YOUR ENTHUSIASM AND HAVE A HELL OF A GOOD TIME DOING IT. IF YOU DO DISCOVER SOMETHING NEW AND UNKNOWN I WILL BUY YOU THE BIGGEST STEAK IN SOUTH DAKOTA AND ALL THE BEER YOU CAN DRINK. I GET TO GO ALONG.

I find it interesting that someone with such an extensive background has no idea what a "control" is. I learned that on day one of scientific method in junior high.

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:42 am

Travis Morgan wrote:
Terry Murbach wrote:I WOULD NOT WANT TO DISCOURAGE YOUR ENTHUSIASM IN ANY WAY BUT FOR OTHER THAN YOUR OWN EDIFICATION ANYTHING YOU DO ALONG SUCH LINES WILL DUPLICATE THAT WHICH HAS BEEN KNOWN WELL FOR MANY YEARS. THE 30-30 IS THE OLDEST OF SPORTING WHITE POWDER CARTRIDGES AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO IMPROVE IT, NOTHING TO IMPROVE IT'S BULLETS, AND NOTHING YOU CAN SHOOT WITH IT THAT HASN'T BEEN SHOT A THOUSAND TIMES BEFORE. IT IS A T-TOALLY KNOWN QUANTITY.
HAVING WORKED FOR TWO AMMUNITION COMPANIES I WILL NOTE HERE THAT EVEN THEY RARELY--RARELY!!!--COME UP WITH ANYTHING NEW AND ALL THEY DO TODAY WAS KNOWN BY THE EARLY YEARS OF THE 20th CENTURY.
NOW, YOU GO DO WHATEVER IT IS THAT HAS GRABBED YOUR ENTHUSIASM AND HAVE A HELL OF A GOOD TIME DOING IT. IF YOU DO DISCOVER SOMETHING NEW AND UNKNOWN I WILL BUY YOU THE BIGGEST STEAK IN SOUTH DAKOTA AND ALL THE BEER YOU CAN DRINK. I GET TO GO ALONG.
I find it interesting that someone with such an extensive background has no idea what a "control" is. I learned that on day one of scientific method in junior high.

YOU DON'T WANT TO PUSH YOUR LUCK HERE MR MORGAN OR IN SHORT ORDER YOU'LL HAVE THIS GUN SITE SEEING WHAT AN IGNORAMOUS DUNCE YOU ARE. SINCE YOU SEEM TO BE ALL BUT BRAINDEAD ABOUT SUCH THINGS A " CONTROL ' AS YOU NOTE IS NOT USED NOR NEEDED IN THE WAY YOU SURMISE. SORRY, YOU ARE THE DUMBSHIQ AGAIN. LORDY, COULDN'T YOU AT LEAST TRY--TRY!!!!--TO SAY SOMETHING INTELLIGENT !!!

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:06 am

Thanks for marking yourself.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:57 am

Well I have to say that anytime anyone says something can never be improved, that person has nothing to gain on anything. I guess someone should have told Hornady the 30-30 couldn't have been improved on before that started working on the levereveloution ammo.

If it were not for those that wonder, we'd still be shooting flint locks. I for one am glad we are not.

Besides, It's always interesting to see test results of such test. At least for the ignoramusses among us.

I say go for it Jason and let us see the results.

If you have the rounds, I've wondered what the difference between penetration of a 30 cal bullet in 180gr vs 200gr. Seems to me there isn't a whole lot of drop difference between the two weights in 30-06 and 300 WM, and I've wondered if there is a substantial difference in penetration.

Cartridge, '06 or 300WM, wouldn't matter as it would most likely be a realitive percentage thing.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:14 am

handirifle wrote:Well I have to say that anytime anyone says something can never be improved, that person has nothing to gain on anything. I guess someone should have told Hornady the 30-30 couldn't have been improved on before that started working on the levereveloution ammo.

If it were not for those that wonder, we'd still be shooting flint locks. I for one am glad we are not.

Besides, It's always interesting to see test results of such test. At least for the ignoramusses among us.

I say go for it Jason and let us see the results.

If you have the rounds, I've wondered what the difference between penetration of a 30 cal bullet in 180gr vs 200gr. Seems to me there isn't a whole lot of drop difference between the two weights in 30-06 and 300 WM, and I've wondered if there is a substantial difference in penetration.

Cartridge, '06 or 300WM, wouldn't matter as it would most likely be a realitive percentage thing.

Handi,

I agree, wholeheartedly. Good point about the leverevolutions.

But, when Jason mentioned using the .30-30 as a "control", that meant that it was a known quantity, and he was going to compare what the other loads did, compared to the .30-30.

Jason,

If you need any .30-30 stuff for the tests, gimme a holler. If people don't want to help you dig a well, tell them, "That's fine. Just don't stand on my shovel."

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:16 am

Jason,

Forgot to mention, I have enough .30 bullets that I could send you a sample of several different brands/types/weights.

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:41 am

The forum is still alive and well I see!

I love the passion and I love you guys!

Happy New Year and don't go changing!

Humbly,
bogie

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:52 pm

Right back at ya bogie.

Jason I knew that I was just making a point. I think its a grand thing he's doing.