One Bullet, Three Guns, and One Big Pot

[Idiot]

I own a 44 Magnum handgun and carbine. I also own a 444 Marlin rifle. I want to squirrel away some bullets for their futures. Since .429 caliber is wide enough to work without having to expand, and because lead is still somewhat available, I'm thinking about casting this "all around" bullet. So I'm asking for advise. What bullet would suggest be used in all three guns and what mould would be used to cast it?

Feel free to offer any suggestion, even it's "I accomplish the same goal using the 270 grain Speer Gold Dot SP. I've used this bullet since its inception and have taken 35 elk, 4 moose, 17 large painters, a truck load of whitetail, and 13 possums with it. I recommend it highly."

Fire away and fall back.

[Sixgun]

Idiot, (where did you get that handle? )
If that 270 Gold Dot works so good, just go to www.neihandtools.com and find a mould they have that closely resembles it. They have thousands of designs and their turn around time is only a couple of weeks. I've done lots of business with 'em.---Good people -----------------Sixgun

[Idiot]

Idiot, (where did you get that handle? )

I earned it.

The Gold Dot exercise was just an example of "any suggestion is a good one." Thanks for the lead.

[cnjarvis]

I've used this bullet since its inception and have taken... 17 large painters...

I've wished I could use that method on some of MY contractors!

I would think that a good WFN or SWC in a 250-300 grain range should do the trick nicely. What about something similar to a LBT or Keith design?

[GANJIRO]

Do you know hat the rifling twist is in your barrels? That will help determine what bullet weight to use.

[Idiot]

Do you know hat the rifling twist is in your barrels? That will help determine what bullet weight to use.

That's a good question, but no I don't know. Right now I shoot Creeker's old 250 grain Keith bullets out of both 44 Magnums. Both guns shoot them well, but the carbine sometimes finds a hitch when feeding the SWC. And I'm thinking of moving up in weight just a tad now that I'm running out of these bullets. I sure wish I would have bought more. But anyway, I'm beginning to lean toward the ogival wadcutters for feeding reasons, but hate to give up the low and medium velocity stability of the Keith. The 444 Marlin brings in a whole new set of issues. With velocity increasing substantially over the 44 Magnums, I would think leading would become a problem, but I don't know. I was hoping some body had been there and done that and could let me in on their secret. What do you use?

[mikld]

A wide flat nosed bullet may be needed to feed in your carbine. My 44 Puma does not like semi-wadcutters, of any weight, so I feed her 260 gr WFN Beartooth lead bullets. They work fine in my S&W 629, Contender, and my Dan Wesson too. I just got a Ranchdog mold for a 260 gr TL bullet but haven't cast any yet, it might work in my carbine, hopefully!

[2X22]

The Lyman 429640 (275grs) works well in all 3 if you have any interest in cast bullets. I've used it in all 3 (44 rifle & Pistol and .444 rifle and T/C) since the mould was introduced quite a few years ago. Too bad it has been discontinued but is still available is one looks hard enough.

For the .444 you need to use an extra crimp die since you can't crimp it in the crimp groove and function through a Marlin. It works very well in all 3 platforms.

If you are interested in jacketed only, which I'm not, it is tough to go wrong with the standard ol' Remington 240gr JSP. I've taken enough deer, bear and elk with it from .44 rifle and pistols and I have 2 friends that swear by it in their .444's for elk. And these are the big Roosevelt elk they use it on. Between the two they've killed a LOT of elk with the 240 JSP.

22

[Grizz]

Nice to see you posting again. Marshall favors a 290g hardcast at about .432 in his 444. It doesn't lead his guns and his velocities are on the bleeding edge. It's about the limit for microgroove barrels, and it gives incredible accuracy.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_no ... tes.htm/17

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_no ... tes.htm/19

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_no ... tes.htm/28

You could ask Marshall how that bullet fits hand guns, and if it will feed in your carbine.

Ranch Dog has an accurate bullet mold:

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/

A 265g and a 300g. You could call him to see about how it stabilizes in the 444 and how it fits the hand gun and carbine.

Glad to see you're still moving and hope all is well with wife and family.

Grizz

[kimwcook]

Holy smokes 35 elk! That's a lot of elk.

I don't have any suggestions on your bullet hunt though.

[AJMD429]

I like the concept and the .429-430 diameter....

429 Family Small.JPG

One could do similar things with a .38 Spl DA Revolver, .357 Mag SA Revolver, .357 Mag Lever Carbine, and .35 Rem (or .357 Max) Rifle, if they liked lighter (cheaper, more per pound) bullets or less recoil...

...or the .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .480 S&W Magnum series, if you like bigger holes!

[gundownunder]

Dunno what you would gain with the idea.
The .444 and .44 would both have to be downloaded to the same velocity to prevent leading and I would think that velocity would be a couple hundred fps below full .44 loads.
Why not use lead in the .44 combo and jacketed in the triple to really stomp on the big stuff or blow the snot out of most medium size game at long range.
Mind you, I only own a .357 so I'm only guessing

[PaperPatch]

What bullet would suggest be used in all three guns and what mould would be used to cast it?

Saeco Mould No. 62431


This is the one I use. It is a gas-checked design, with a short/wide/flat nose designed specifically for use in handguns and lever-action rifles.

If I could afford only one mould for use in a variety of .44's....this one would be it.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

[Idiot]

Gentlemen, thank you for all the good advice. I will follow a number of tracks and see if they lead me where I need to go. Again, thanks.

Grizz, all is well. I hope the same for you and yours. I will take a close look at Marshall's bullets and articles.

2X22 and PaperPatch, I will take a close look at those moulds. Remington 240 grain JSP? I had no idea they were that tough. They can be had for cheap and I will look them over and maybe run a couple tests.

gundownunder, I may do exactly as you suggest if I don't get what I want from the cast bullets. In that case I may actually use the Speer Gold Dot 270 grain SP bullet as an all around slug. I've used this bullet in my handgun (purchased in a cartridge from Buffalo Bore) and it shoots well. In a conversation with Tim Sundles, he mentioned this same bullet works in 444 Marlin but with great and rapid expansion (Gold Dots do not come apart).

A number of folks have mentioned LBT WFN bullets. Although I think these bullets work very well at 44 Magnum carbine and 444 Marlin velocities, they tend to be less stable when run a "working load" velocities out of a handgun (I understand they work great at full tilt velocities). All that weight up-front requires a certain velocity to get them to spin fast enough to stabalize. However, I will take a look at these once more.

AJMD429, I've done a lot of experimenting with the 35 calibers and have a combination worked out with them. The 35s, however, have one handicap when compared to the 44s; the 35s require some expansion to be most effective - the 44s are already wide enough. So, when it comes to casting a solid bullet I decided to begin wide and not rely on any expansion. The 35s work great with jacketed expanding bullets though.

Holy smokes 35 elk! That's a lot of elk.

You pulled that number from my example response. I can only dream of taking that many elk. And if I were able, I'd still be way behind one fella on this board.

[BenT]

I'm going to give Ranchdogmolds.com a try with my 444. But he is out stock on the 444 265gr mold. Alot of good info on that site. He sizes to .432 for the 444 because of Marlins bore size .429 bullets do not shoot accurately.

[Rusty]

Idiot,
You might want to go over to the graybeard's outdoor forums and post this question on Veral Smith's forum. He'll get back to you in short order.

Veral will also cut a double cavity mould for you so one is a gas check and one is a plain base if you request it.

[Rodfac]

I like Lyman's # 429215 gc. It casts in WW 215 gr with the check in place. Superbly accurate in my .44 Smith Model 29 and both of my son's. It also works well in a son's Model 92 Winchester when sized to .429" For the magnums, .430" works well. In my Marlin 336 .44 Magnum, with micro-groove rifling, it will routinely shoot into 1" gps at 50 yds. For use in the Marlin's .433" groove diameter, I use them in 'as cast' diameter, roughly .434" with Hornady's gc in place. It's my hands down favorite bullet for several .44 Specials (one Colt and two S&W's) and three Model 29 Smiths, not to mention the Marlin 336 and son's Marlin 1894.

It is probably too light for elk...I've killed three and all with a .35 Whelen with 250 gr Sierra JSP Bt's. But for deer, eastern or western, inside 100 yds, I don't think you'd need much more.

One bullet for all purposes is a tough prescription to fill. I use this one for practice, and Remington JSP's or JHP's for business use here on KY's white tail deer and coyote's.

If you want the loads or casting information, I can supply both.

HTH's, Rodfac

[Grizz]

A number of folks have mentioned LBT WFN bullets. Although I think these bullets work very well at 44 Magnum carbine and 444 Marlin velocities, they tend to be less stable when run a "working load" velocities out of a handgun (I understand they work great at full tilt velocities). All that weight up-front requires a certain velocity to get them to spin fast enough to stabalize. However, I will take a look at these once more.

I don't think this is correct. My current load for my 5.5" redhawk is a 405g hardcast bullet.



At 908 fps this bullet penetrated completely through 14" of seasoned douglas fir in the direction of the grain. I increased the load to 943 fps and it easily rang the 107 yard gong. No sign of tumbling or instability in either case. I haven't given it the plywood test, but I don't think it would be able to ring steel if it weren't stable. With the increase in velocity I get the point blank performance on threatening fir firewood at fifty yards.

This bullet is designed to run in 444s, but it has to have the faster twist than the microgroove barrels. It fits the redhawk cylinder but nothing shorter.

So in this case the big and slow bullet is awesome. Won't cycle thru your carbine tho.....

Grizz

[Idiot]

I don't think this is correct. My current load for my 5.5" redhawk is a 405g hardcast bullet.

Well Grizz, your bullet is the exception to the rule. In fact your bullet proves the rule. Because it is very heavy for caliber, it is impossible for most of its weight to be up front. This is not the case with either the 240 or 265 grain WFN bullets. With these standard 44 caliber weight bullets most of the weight is up front, and this weight distribution can cause stability problems at low velocities. That's one of the reasons the Keith style SWC works so well and remains one of the most accurate and versatile bullet designs - most of its weight is in the rear of the bullet so it can be shot at a variety of velocities and remain very stable. You savvy?

[Grizz]

Gotcha. It proves that the 405g bullet is the best possible one to shoot from my redhawk. I never understood why folks insist on shooting lightweight bullets when the heavy ones work so well.

But for your needs, the one bullet fits all, then you're stuck with what feeds. The semi wadcutters don't feed so well in the semi-autos do they?

I tried the 355g BTB in a Marlin 1894 .44 and it was very unstable. I figured it was from the slow twist of the rifle barrel since they don't tumble from the redhawk, even at moderate velocities... so..... maybe rifling depth and rate has something to do with it also... I wasn't willing to push the velocity fast enough to stabilize in 1:38 rifling. I suspect that would be a one shot experiment.

I'm interested in seeing your one-bullet solution though.

My one-bullet solution means I'm perfectly outfitted for long term eating with the redhawk and a .22 rifle.

Grizz

[Idiot]

Well all the good advice is going to keep me busy for awhile, but when a solution is met, I'll keep everyone posted.

...I think I've still got a Redhawk stuffed away somewhere...I think.

[jd45]

YOU'VE GOTTA DETERMINE HOW ONE SIZE BULLET, (429) WILL WORK IN ALL THREE GUNS, AS THEY MAY SLUG TO DIFFERENT DIAMETERS IN THEIR BORES. OF COURSE, IF YOU'RE WILLING TO BE SATISFIED WITH LOOSER GROUPING IN SOME OF THEM FOR THE SAKE OF EXPEDIENCY, SO BE IT. YOU DON'T NECESSARILY NEED YOUR RIFLE TO GROUP INTO 1 INCH TO MAKE A KILLING SHOT. BTW, I'M NOT YELLING.......(COMPUTER ETIQUETE, DON'T'CHA KNOW), i JUST HIT THE CAPS LOCK KEY BY MISTAKE. I''D SAY 1 THOU OVER GROOVE DIAMETER IS A SAFE BET, BUT YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHAT YOUR GROOVE DIAMETERS ARE FIRST. GOOD LUCK, JD45

[rimrock]

If you search, you can find info about 250 grain loads in the T4. For example, Paco talks about it here: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/444.htm.
So, its possible that your .44 mag revolvers and your T4 can shoot the same bullet at different loads. I have a T4 with the faster twist of 1:20, and it is not to picky about loads from 265 to 405 grains if I do my part. When I say not picky, I'm talking about ability to critically hit game, not paper punching.

I have not yet used any 250-255 grain bullets in my T4 because the bore is .431, so I shoot .432 lead. Cast loads in that diameter can be a little hard to locate. Beartooth bullets and Montana Bullet Bullet Works will both cast to that diameter. I'm sure others will as well. Before you can select a single bullet for both .44 and .444 guns, you need to slug the barrels to see what the bore diameter is. You might get by shooting a softer lead alloy in the .44 that is .431 diameter instead of .429-.430, but the pressures may increase in the .44. You might end up with a single bullet design in 2 different diameters. Just depends on the handshake between you and the gun.