Help me identify this old military arm

1886 · Post by **1886** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:03 pm

Well what is it? There is some odd writting that is hard to make out on top of the barrel and end of receiver. There is also some writting on top of the butt plate. The writting is difficult to make out because of surface rust. The stock has been badly cracked through the wrist and repaired. The wood has had a varnish applied somewhere in time. The rifle was given to me 4 or 5 years ago as a wall hanger. Bore shows lots of strong rifling. Thanks. 1886.

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:24 pm

Looks like a "Zulu". Made for the African trade in the 1800's.
They were made from odd bits, musket parts, and whatever could be trown together cheap as trade guns.

Jack

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:49 pm

Austrian Werndle 11mm

1886 · Post by **1886** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:08 pm

I agree w/ Ben Rumson. I read a description of the rifle in I believe Cartridges of The World. The rotating or revolving breech block that is moved by a protruding thumb piece. The hammer must be cocked before this can be accomplished. This description is what caught my eye. This describes this rifles action exactly. The book says this rifle is rare. I do not know. If anyone else can help please comment. Thanks. 1886.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:14 pm

1886,
I can't help ID the rifle, but the action fascinates me. Could you post some close up pics of it opened and closed?

Joe

1886 · Post by **1886** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:39 pm

Here you go.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:00 pm

I don't know what kind of rifle that is (haven't got a clue) but I wanna know if that rifle can play that piano and is that "knarly" looking toe a trophy that was bagged with that rifle? Inquiring minds want to know.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:00 pm

Not at home presently, so cant post any pix.. but I have one that was sporterized in Europe a long time ago..Completely new dark walnut stock, shotgun butt plate, fine cut checkering @ wrist & forarm, horn shnabel, cased shotgun trigger guard with finger hook, double set triggers, express ramp 3 leaf sights..24" 11 mm barrel .. Ramped front sight with the wavey light deflection lines cut in the ramp with gold bead..

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:06 pm

Yep. its a Werndl. A fellow in our gun club shoots one in Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette.

1886 · Post by **1886** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:11 pm

Yes, the toe was bagged in deepest, darkest Africa. The nail that goes with it is even knarlier. There are a couple of these rifles on gunbroker. Keep the feedback coming in. 1886.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:55 pm

1886,
Thanks for the additional pics. That rifle is pretty neet. Are you going to keep it as a wall hanger or clean it up and try to shoot it?

Joe

1886 · Post by **1886** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:20 pm

I am going to sell it. It should be with someone who will shoot it. The good news is the action seems to be fully functional. The breech block rotates smoothly, the extractor functions as it should, the hammer cocks properly, the bore shows strong rifling, the metal is pretty good, and the trigger while heavy exhibits no creep. I am not a gunsmith but it seems perfectly functional. The bad news is the stock is cracked possibly in two places completely through. I do not know how this happened. The rifle is missing the cleaning rod and the bayonnet(sp?). Thanks. 1886.

omgb · Post by **omgb** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:26 pm

Rifle or Handloader, I'm not sure which, did an article on this very rifle last month IIRC. I believe the rifle is actually German in linage not English. How much did you have in mind?

1886 · Post by **1886** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:59 pm

I really do not know what would be fair to both of us. It would certainly need a stock but I do not know how available the stocks are. The mechanical functioning of the rifle seems sound. I checked gunbroker and the prices were in the $500.00 range for rifles that seemed to be somewhat similar mechanically but had functional wood. I do not know if these are realistic prices. If you are serious drop me a p.m. and we can discuss the matter. Thanks. 1886.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:43 pm

Ah yes, that appears to be one of the infamous Hardman/Werndl "piano guns" that were carried into battle by the British during the early parts of the Boer War.

It's not commonly known that British Highland infantry units used to march with Drum, Piper, and Piano.

The Piano gunnners apparently became a liability to their fellow soldiers. It was claimed that they impeded the column and were unable to quickly bring their rifles to bear in skirmish because of their tactic of suddenly pivoting their line and sitting down to aim their pianos at the enemy. While the pianos did provide a measure of cover, the necessity of removing their hands from the keyboard to operate the rifle caused them to drop the cadence, which played havoc with the rhythm of the march, sorely affecting troop morale.

perry owens · Post by **perry owens** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:24 pm

That's an 1866/77 Werndl infantry rifle. They were the first product of what is now the Steyr firearms works in Austria.Most were rechambered to 11.15 x 57mm but if yours is in the original shorter chambering it is rarer. If the rear sight has a sliding extension leaf it has been rechambered. Sight graduations are not yards or metres but are "schritt", which was the standard marching step length of the Austro-Hungarian army. Werndls were issued to reserve units of the German army in WW1. If yours has stampings on the top of the buttplate such as "LS" (Landsturm) or "LW" Landwehr" it is one of those.
The action is simple and very strong and Werndls are very accurate. Dies and bullets are easily available and you can fireform brass from 0.348 Win. I have one in good shootable condition, perfect bore and no stock cracks, which is worth around $500 - 600.

Perry Owens

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:06 pm

Let me guess.....that big toe is for 100yds, & the three foot pedals are for 200, 400, & 600yds, right? jd45