OT - . 44 Pistol Home Defense Loading

[JohndeFresno]

In all honesty, I posted this in a "Reloading" thread at another site; but on second thought I believe that there are more experienced hunters and shootists on this site; so I will prevail upon your collective kindness to post this non-Levergun question!

Has anyone here run any type of "stopping power" tests for a load similar to the following one?

Wait - before you post that the 44 Mag penetrates way too much, kicks too much, and booms too much for urban self-defense: This is actually a .44 Special strength loading.

The revolver choice is as a backup gun in the event that my .45 ACP pistol is broken or otherwise unavailable. And I subscribe to using a full length cartridge for a .44 Special load because:
1) It saves wear and tear on the cylinder,
2) It's easier to stock just the Magnum brass, and
3) By always using magnum length brass, I don't have to twiddle with my reloading setups as much.

I have settled upon the Hornady XTP bullet for its reliable expansion over a wide range of velocities, and I suspect that the 180 grain offering would minimize excessive penetration for an urban environment.

This load is mild in pressure, and it burns its propellant completely before leaving a 6.5 inch pistol barrel, per what my QuickLoad software tells me; so there should be less blinding flash and noise - a consideration for defensive loads fired at night (when most home defense incidents occur).

The load, apparently only 24,855 psi Max Pressure:
11.5 gr. Unique, Hornady XTP 180 gr. #44050, C.O.L. 1.600 "
1373 fps / 753 ft. lbs. (6" Taurus),
1522 fps / 927 ft. lbs. (10.5" Super Blackhawk)

OK - the Question: Any info on a 180 gr. XTP .44 pill at 1300 fps?
It seems to me that this would not penetrate three walls and your car, but that it would drop a home invader in his tracks and therefore end the attack. Any info at all?

Oh, yeah - and I've heard the argument about lawyers tearing you up for rolling your own in a defensive load. Please, let's not go over that argument again, here; I don't know that we'll be able to buy defensive ammo before long, so that is not a topic of concern for this post.

[Hobie]

I use 9 gr. Unique under a 240 gr. SWC in .44 Mag cases. I would not want to push the bullet over 1000 fps and would use whatever bullet was handiest.

To the point, I find that all my .4-something revolvers are being loaded with average-for-caliber cast bullets at about 900 fps. I would not hesitate to use them for self-defense. Indeed, I had an incident and was not concerned that this was what I was going to be using. Fortunately, proper incident management allowed me to avoid shooting the drunken/doped up so-and-so.

[stretch]

I would think a 180 gr. ANYTHING at 1300fps would be fine for short-range social work.

44 Special, INMHO, is an overlooked caliber these days for self-defense.

I think ya got it covered.........

[kimwcook]

I don't know if Glaser makes a round for the 44 special, but I'd take a look at them. The problem with most hollow points is that the first wall of sheetrock they go through they're now solids and they just keep on going.

[huntershooter]

Probably "apples to oranges" comparison but: I've used a 300 gr XTP in .45 Colt @ 1300 + fps as a hog gun.
I shot a 480 # boar a couple years ago with this load (four times). I recovered 3 of the four bullets.
None of the recovered bullets showed any expansion-deformation from hitting heavy bone, but zero expansion.
Penetration was awsome (4" +), "stopping power" was disappointing. Yes, shot placement was good.

I've switched to a WFNGC cast bullet in my revolvers and '86 Winchesters for hunting.

I would feel most comfortable shooting a few of those 180 gr. XTP's into wetpack or some other medium to check for expansion/penetration.

[Grizz]

I think Hobie has the right idea and I think 1300 fps is way more velocity than you need. My redhawk gets store bought 44 spcl loads in the house and I think they're under 1000 fps. Whatever, no recoil and NO ONE is gonna get past 200gr silvertips!

However, I have no experience with the bullets you asked about. I think if you keep them in the 38 spcl +P snubby velocity range you've got a winner.

I agree with your use of the mag cases for all loads, same thing here. I guess I'll tag the spcl loads with a rattlecan to keep the obvious obvious.

[stretch]

I think that one of the advantages of the 44 Special, like the GI 45, is that even if
the bullet does not expand, you're still makin' a pretty good-sized hole in whatever you're
hitting. And at 1300 fps, it seems penetration would be adequate, expansion of the projectile
or not.

[GANJIRO]

How about Mag-Safe ammo? http://magsafeonline.com/prices_specs.jsp I read an article once about making your own prefragmented bullets using the Speer blue plastic shot capsules and filling it with #9 bird shot mixed with epoxy. Call crazy but I'm concerned more about under penetration than under penetration. As others have suggested I think your bullet selection kept at 1000 FPS would be more than adequate.

[JohndeFresno]

Thank y'all for the quick and relevant replies.

Huntershooter's experience gives me pause, since I would have expected much more from the 300 gr. XTP round on game.

I'll guess I'll have to hunt up some old phone books, take them to a friend's ranch, wet them down and run some tests. If I can get away from town, I'll photograph the results. My neighbors hate it when I shoot in my backyard, for some reason.

I have an all-time favorite handgun caliber and load for plinking and target practice, which is apparently about the same load that Hobie uses; so I guess I'll need to make these comparisons:

For 44 Mag Taurus Mod 44SS6 (6.5 in bbl):
1) Magnus 240 gr #701M SWC-BB Moly, BHN 22 (approx),
Unique (Alliant) 9.0 gr.; CCI 300 Lg Pistol Primer
COAL 1.609"; Chrono - 1078 fps avg

2) Hornady XTP 180 gr. #44050,
Unique (Alliant) 11.5 gr.; CCI 300 Lg Pistol Primer
COAL 1.600"; QuickLoad projected MV 1373 fps

I'll load a few of the fast little zippers and report back; but it might be a while! Meanwhile, it looks like I'm not the only person who favors the modest 44 Mag 240 grain lead load; I'm in good company.

[JohndeFresno]

How about Mag-Safe ammo? http://magsafeonline.com/prices_specs.jsp I read an article once about making your own prefragmented bullets using the Speer blue plastic shot capsules and filling it with #9 bird shot mixed with epoxy. Call crazy but I'm concerned more about under penetration than under penetration. As others have suggested I think your bullet selection kept at 1000 FPS would be more than adequate.

Thanks for the alternative view regarding composite ammo, Ganjiro. Somehow, I personally just can't get behind this space age stuff, having read about so many failures on things like heavy leather jackets and such; and I just don't have any experience with it in my career path that would encourage me to use it.

[mikld]

I've often heard of using Factory Loads only for personal defence. It is to keep you "Lawyer Proof"; safe from being accused of reloading "killer rounds", if you ever have to use your weapon.

I load light, 44 special level for my S&W 629 for general target/range use and keep factory 44 Specials for home protection. But then again, I live in sue-happy California!

[JohndeFresno]

I've often heard of using Factory Loads only for personal defence. It is to keep you "Lawyer Proof"; safe from being accused of reloading "killer rounds", if you ever have to use your weapon.

I load light, 44 special level for my S&W 629 for general target/range use and keep factory 44 Specials for home protection. But then again, I live in sue-happy California!

I live there, too, Mikld. But take a gander at the last paragraph of the first post. There may be merit to the lawyer argument, there may not be - there is not, so far. But since it was brought up again (as it usually is), I'll add my customary byline to the issue:

I already have some Silvertip loads for my .44 Magnum; the same as mentioned by another poster here. I keep them handy for my .44's, and hope that I never have to haul them out for "interpersonal duty."

However, this is about duplicating the effectiveness of that round with components on hand for a day when we can't purchase such cool ammo. I would hesitate to use the word "stockpiling," because that might be used against me if we were facing an anti-gun, totalitarian government. And, of course, we know that this will never happen, as fellow Californians, don't we?

[Lefty Dude]

My carry piece and personal protection firearm is a Charter Bulldog Pug 44 special. For carry I use Winchester Silver Tips. My hand loads that duplicate the factory Silver Tips are, 200 gr. Nosler JHP under 7 grains of Unique. This is a controllable load that can still be shot double tap, double action very quickly. For me a follow-up accurate shot placement is important.

[Sixgun]

When I do carry the below 2" 629, it gets loaded with a 200 gr. H&G FP, in front of 10 grains of Unique. I don't have my notes handy, but I believe its a little over 1000 fps--very controlable-------------Sixgun

[C. Cash]

John...if for some reason your XTP bullet does not work out, another alternative is the Federal 205 gr. LSWCHP 44 Special loading. They are highly though of in terms of human stopping power, are mild enough to get REALLY good with them, should not penetrate 3 houses, and will give you very little wear and tear on the gun. They are accurate out of my SBH. Until I started loading Mt. Baldy's Keith 250's they were my go to bullet for years. These are the Federal rounds:

[Kansas Ed]

Me personally, I would prefer the Winchester Silvertip bullet...yes Midway carries them but pricey...and not over 45 LC velocities. That is 920fps max. I think I would prefer them more at 45acp velocites to be truthful.

Ed

[JohndeFresno]

I appreciate all the input, fellow handgun shooters. It looks like just about everyone is pushing for the heavier projectiles for defense as well as hunting.

Perhaps the 300 or so 180 grain XTP bullets that I have in storage might end up as roach killers and such. But I'll still need to run a test to satisfy my curiosity. After all, why did they design a 180 gr. .44 caliber XTP unless it has some purpose?

Like Sixgun, I like the idea of a load that allows quick follow-up defensive shots, and these little sub-200 grain pellets certainly allow for that with my full size revolvers.

[Warhawk]

I load my 629 MG with these for home defense.

[Blaine]

You can go a lot lighter than that......A .45acp is 230 grains @ 850fps....you need nothing more than that.....

[Griff]

I've often heard of using Factory Loads only for personal defence. It is to keep you "Lawyer Proof"; safe from being accused of reloading "killer rounds", if you ever have to use your weapon...

We've had this discussion on this forum many times. My old Dept. in CA allowed us to only carry factory rounds for duty use also, for that reason, but... that was in our official capacity and was issued under advise from the County Attorney. There has yet to be a shoot that's been deemed "righteous" where the shooter was sued by the vic or family over the type of ammo used. If there has been, I've not heard of it. Much ado about nothing.

My .45ACP and 45 Colt are loaded with 200-230 grain pills of various configurations to about the same 900fps as Hobie mentioned. Repeat applications of medicine as needed doesn't bother me.

[Old Savage]

I am with the big slow bullet crowd.

[flb]

The Outdoor Channel show on defense had an interesting test on bullet penetration through walls and such the other night. High velocity 9mm went through the most, slow big ole .45 did the best job and did not exit the house. I measured the max distance in my house and it is 21' so I practice a lot at that distance and shoot in awkward positions etc. Changed my .357 load to 180 gr flat nose cast boolit at around 900fps. Feel good to go at that.

[86er]

This is from a 44 Special load from a 44 Special handgun. I have done extensive testing lately as may have been evident by recent posts on the topic. The 180gr XTP fired at 5 sheetrock panels each 8 1/2" apart (both sides of a wall) and starting 10 feet from the first sheetrock went through all of them. The first 3 were a round hole, pretty much in a straight line, the fourth was long, torn, slanted downward and 4 inches lower, the 5th hit so low it actually went into the wooden table and broke off a big piece of the bottom of the sheetrock. The same bullet at 882 fps average went into a nylon/down jacket, fleece sweatshirt and T-Shirt then into a ballistic gel filled torso. The bullet came out the back of the torso but did not go through any of the clothing on the rear. The bullets expanded but each was unique. In other words none were perfect little mushrooms and they did not resemble one another in shape and form BUT they worked in the sense that they were bigger than bore diameter. All of my testing was at 950 fps or less for the bullets I used so this is not a direct comparison to what you are doing. The 240gr Swift A-Frame, 250 gr Nosler Partition and 200 gr Nosler Sporting Bullet brands did not expand on the dressed torso. Winchester Silver Tips factory loads expanded 6 out of 10 and provided reasonable penetration, coming through the back of the torso but not all the clothing 5 out of 10 shots. The CCI Gold Dot 200 gr at 855 fps was the best. It always expanded wider than bore diameter and came through the torso into the clothes 2 out of 10, came out of the torso but did not go into any clothing 3 more times (plus the two into clothes makes 5 through and through) and stayed inside the torso the remainder. All firing at the torso was from 7 yards. The CCI's were fired at the sheetrock and penetrated 3 panel round holes, broke a square from the 4th (bullet hit sideways) and broke a small chunk out of the 5th but did not go through. I am using CCI Gold Dots for now but I am having some 250 grain bullets made that will work at 825 fps a very high percentage of the time. I hope my homework helps you make some good decisions.

[AJMD429]

I know you probably don't want to buy a new gun, but....

The Taurus "Judge" revolvers with .410 shotshells would seem to be the ideal in-home defense guns.

I would think it would offer plenty of power without overpenetration, compact (an unwieldy .410 long gun would be knockable from your hands easily), and .410 slugs or .45 Colt loads wouldn't be bad to have as your 3rd or 4th round in the cylinder (and I'll bet the .45 Colt slugs are flying sideways once past 4 feet or so, if it is anything like the breakopen .410/45 I had, but who cares?)

[Fairshake]

Good test and post 86er. The Speer GDHP in 44spl is a awesome round and I don't think you will find anything better. Back in the 70's when I first started playing around with the different rounds offered at that time with the Super Vel by Lee Juras setting the standard. We used a product called Dux-Seal if I remember right. It was a clay like material that was said to be close to human body results when struck by a bullet. I think we bought it from HVAC supply houses.

[Hobie]

Those Taurus Judges are flying off the shelves. They sell just as fast as they come in, as fast or faster (now) than the AR-15s!

[AJMD429]

Those Taurus Judges are flying off the shelves. They sell just as fast as they come in, as fast or faster (now) than the AR-15s!

What do they generally sell for? I might put one on my 'short list' (...although if you can shoot .410 shells in the .444 leverguns, maybe you could shoot them in the BFR's... )

[Grizz]

Those Taurus Judges are flying off the shelves. They sell just as fast as they come in, as fast or faster (now) than the AR-15s!

I have a couple of questions about that gun.

1. 45 Colt has a huge jump down the cylinder free bore before enountering the forcing cone. How does that work out? Seems like there would be lead shaving and issues of angled approaches into the forcing cone. Especially since the lock time might allow recoil influences before the bullet engages the rifling. Any thoughts about this?

2. 410 3" shells have a viscious recoil in a light gun. I had one of the skeleton frame thingys and that would put a hurt on my shoulder every shot. The cumulative effect was awsome the next day. But this goes to the 410 in a hand gun. I would expect the recoil flip to be heavy for a SD arm, much more say than the 44 spl in a redhawk. Anyone have actual trigger time with this gun?

come back,

Grizz

[JohndeFresno]

I know you probably don't want to buy a new gun, but....

The Taurus "Judge" revolvers with .410 shotshells would seem to be the ideal in-home defense guns.

I would think it would offer plenty of power without overpenetration, compact (an unwieldy .410 long gun would be knockable from your hands easily), and .410 slugs or .45 Colt loads wouldn't be bad to have as your 3rd or 4th round in the cylinder (and I'll bet the .45 Colt slugs are flying sideways once past 4 feet or so, if it is anything like the breakopen .410/45 I had, but who cares?)

Thanks for the salt, AJMD - I live in California. No "Judges" allowed here, unless they are the liberal kind!

[JohndeFresno]

This is from a 44 Special load from a 44 Special handgun. I have done extensive testing lately as may have been evident by recent posts on the topic...180gr XTP fired at 5 sheetrock panels each 8 1/2" apart (both sides of a wall) and starting 10 feet from the first sheetrock went through all of them.... none were perfect little mushrooms and they did not resemble one another in shape and form BUT...they were bigger than bore diameter....The CCI Gold Dot 200 gr at 855 fps was the best. It always expanded wider than bore diameter and came through the torso...I am using CCI Gold Dots for now but I am having some 250 grain bullets made that will work at 825 fps a very high percentage of the time. I hope my homework helps you make some good decisions.

Outstanding, 86er. Once again, you have essentially provided all the answers that I was looking for; and the rest of the Levergunners sure helped with their views and experience.

I don't have the slick gel torso setup that you have conjured up; but I now have enough information to convince me that it's not worth messing with my 180 grainers except for something like light target loads.

It looks like I'll use either the 200 gr. Gold Dots or the recently released 210 gr. Silvertip components are what I have been looking for. This light, speedy thing for the .44 is apparently not something that would float my boat - or should I say of the attacker, sink his ship!

But before I make my order, are you free to discuss those 250's that you are working on? E.g. are you thinking on a bulk purchase of some custom 250 gr. medium hard cast bullets, or a special order with Hornady? Mebbe several here will be willing to pool with you for a larger order to save you some $$. I am interested, for one.

As an aside, and perhaps for others who carry the .45 ACP - I found a bullet that appears to be so superior as a defense round, as tested by several participating police officers in Washington State, Texas, and probably elsewhere, that I won't even consider trying to duplicate it and don't plan to look any further . I have purchased "an amount" of the Federal 235 gr. HST .45 ACP rounds, and have total confidence in that load. You can't get it everywhere; but I got mine at Streicher's online.

The "Wound Ballistics Workshop" tests that took place in Texas were pretty much the same as in Washington. You can download a free paper at:
http://le.atk.com/pdf/SanAngeloWBW_Report.pdf

[86er]

John: Look for a PM

[JohndeFresno]

The Outdoor Channel show on defense had an interesting test on bullet penetration through walls and such the other night. High velocity 9mm went through the most, slow big ole .45 did the best job and did not exit the house. I measured the max distance in my house and it is 21' so I practice a lot at that distance and shoot in awkward positions etc. Changed my .357 load to 180 gr flat nose cast boolit at around 900fps. Feel good to go at that.

Man, are you lucky!

My wife, as sweet as she is, absolutely won't let me practice ANYWHERE in the house. She gets mad when I move the target and she sees the holes in the wall. I have to go to the range or somebody's ranch to try out my loads.

[JohndeFresno]

Well, after considering all of the above and absorbing Hobie's and 86er's information and PM's - and other postings, I have decided that the 180 grainer .44's should be saved for rabbits and other small vermin, since there is still the noise and night flash factor with higher speeds. I have a very bad personal experience with a light, fast (.357 Super Vel) round in a defensive situation.

To this day, I have some hearing loss at a certain high frequency range, attributed to firing that round repeatedly without hearing protection (I didn't have time for such a luxury). A small, ultra fast flier always produces a loud report and heavy flash signature. The flash will cut down your night vision. And, whether you notice it or not at a time when you are filled with adrenaline, the high frequency emissions of those light zippers will affect your ears more quickly and permanently than the lower boom of a larger caliber, slower projectile; especially if you are shooting in a confined area where the concussion bounces back into your eardrums.

As a matter of fact, in my case I could not hear critical conversations of those around me, immediately following the volley - very dangerous. That was the day that I decided to holster my Python and start carrying a .45 ACP. Beware of the smug Department Rangemaster who, having never been in a shootout but assuming he knows it all, assures you that you won't be affected by shooting without ear protection because your adrenaline takes over. There are far too many uninformed "experts" who will cavalierly utter this old wives' tale! And when you shoot defensively, you don't have time to put on ear protection as you do at range practice!

The Gold Dot 200 gr. .44 and similar loads sound pretty good. But since I want to start loading right now, I have indeed come full circle to what was first loaded around 130 years ago - a .44 caliber lead messenger flying to its target at about 900 fps. The load is a 250 grain medium soft (BHN 11) cast bullets - the SWC-Keith (Lyman 429421) sized to .430 caliber Moly coated.

With the velocities and pressures shown below, a properly sized bullet of the comparatively soft BHN 11 should not cause any leading, while hopefully allowing some expansion with the excellent Keith configuration. As has been posted many times, Elmer Keith worked with bullets of hardness ranging between 8 and 11, so I'm in good company.

At any rate, I am hoping that it will provide adequate penetration through soft tissue or heavy clothing - and it is indeed much what 86er and Hobie (and others) have recommended. And it's a pretty cheap load, while potentially an accurate loading.

This particular load is, in fact, frequently posted as a good low pressure Cowboy load:
6.0 gr. Bullseye, CCI Primers, COAL 1.610 in.;
around 904 fps in 6.5 in. Taurus (validated by QuickLoad)
PSI projected - max 14,671 psi (per QuickLoad software)

Another possible load:
6.8 Unique, CCI Primers, COAL 1.610 in,
around 910 fps in 6.5 in. barrel
PSI projected - max 14,653

Both powders are around 99% burned up in a 6.5 inch barrel (again, per my software).

I have developed some great loads from Unique; but - will the Bullseye flash less than the Unique? We want the least amount of flash possible for nighttime use.

[Hobie]

Griff et al about the Judge,

Apparently the big jump for the .45 Colt isn't overwhelming accuracy. Most users seem very satisfied. Dittos on the recoil. Several WOMEN, slight women at that, have told me that they don't find the recoil objectionable, at least from the 2½" shells. Prices, IIRC, are in the $400-550 range depending on model. I don't see used ones on the market or coming in for trade on another gun. We haven't had a used one for sale for 4-5 months now.

[Idahoser]

yeah but have you looked at one of those clunkers? Blech.

Based on a lot of reading of things like this thread, my 629 bedside gun carries Silvertips or Gold Dots in .44 Special. If I could load them I'd have no worry doing so, but I don't think I can buy the bullets. If I couldn't get them, I'd love to have a way to get those SWCHPs.

[mescalero1]

I have a S&W 1917 .45 ACP revolver, with a 6" bull barrel, BoMar rib with a firesight ( green ) in the front sight.
Feed it full moon clips, the old Lawman Flying Ashtrays for bullets.
That is my after dark house gun

[jd45]

"scuse me for sayin so, but it sounds to me like you're trying to produce, on a larger scale so to speak, the higb percentage one-shot-stop capability of the 125gr-hp .357 mag load. I would also be concerned about the over-penetration aspect & doing damage to things not intended. Seems to me a 240 Speer Gold Dot at 900 or so would do the trick. jd45

[JohndeFresno]

"scuse me for sayin so, but it sounds to me like you're trying to produce, on a larger scale so to speak, the higb percentage one-shot-stop capability of the 125gr-hp .357 mag load. I would also be concerned about the over-penetration aspect & doing damage to things not intended. Seems to me a 240 Speer Gold Dot at 900 or so would do the trick. jd45

I think that this is a good choice, too.

Since I have several hundred medium soft cast 250 grain Keith .44's available, that is what I'm working with. Like C. Cash, I have some Mt. Baldy offerings in that weight, hardness and caliber; and they look pretty nice. If there is too much power, I'll just drop the loading by 100 fps or so. And lead is cheap.

[JohndeFresno]

I have a S&W 1917 .45 ACP revolver, with a 6" bull barrel, BoMar rib with a firesight ( green ) in the front sight.
Feed it full moon clips, the old Lawman Flying Ashtrays for bullets.
That is my after dark house gun

That is a fine handgun/caliber combo. If I still had one, that would work well, since .45 is my overall favorite for self-defense. Excuse me while I bang my head against the wall again for practically giving my Smith 1917 away, several years ago.
...ouch! ...ouch! ...ouch! ...ouch!

[jd45]

No need to abuse yourself John,..........you did say "practically", didn't you? That means you hung on to it right? Anyway, those medium-soft MtBaldys........I think they're about 12BHN, should give some expansion, especially if you hit bone in the perp. Should work well, I'd think. jd45

[Grizz]

JohndeFresno

I think you're on exactly the right track. I think you might like doing some water jug penetration tests. I'm pretty sure if a bullet can't overpenetrate water, it won't overpenetrate a criminal either. But you can test for this by shooting known loads, like the 125g .357 or the 200gr .44 gold dots, or .45 ACP. Adjust mv to get the results you want. And then post the results please.

Regards,

Grizz

[mescalero1]

Yes,
My friend John has extracted a promise from me that upon my demise that one goes to him.
John will give it a good home, I am pleased with that.

[jd45]

mescalero1, since you brought them up, aren't the Speer Gold Dots just as good, if not better, than the "older model" flying ashtrays? I think I read somewhere they are, or is that just advertizing hype? jd45

[JohndeFresno]

Yes,
My friend John has extracted a promise from me that upon my demise that one goes to him.
John will give it a good home, I am pleased with that.

er...you mean JohndeFresno - right?

[JohndeFresno]

JohndeFresno

I think you're on exactly the right track. I think you might like doing some water jug penetration tests. I'm pretty sure if a bullet can't overpenetrate water, it won't overpenetrate a criminal either. But you can test for this by shooting known loads, like the 125g .357 or the 200gr .44 gold dots, or .45 ACP. Adjust mv to get the results you want. And then post the results please.

Regards,

Grizz

Good idea, Grizz.

As a matter of fact, I believe that I have all of the above already loaded, including some commercial loadings of each. I have been stuck in town with family matters for the last several months, but now that some loved ones are healing nicely, I hope to be able to head out for some shootin' time, soon. I'll load up my 6 grain Bullseye/250 gr. Keith loads, get a bunch of bleach bottles or similar, and run the tests as soon as I can. 86er has been good at sharing his efforts, so I'll pitch in a little when the dust settles around here.

[Old Savage]

Big slow bullet.

[mescalero1]

No, not John DeFresno,
No have not tried the Speers, thanks for the tip.

[Grizz]

along the big, slow bullet idea my .44 405g departs the redhawk muzzle around 947 fps and that penetrates like a 45/70. Not much more recoil than .44 spcl. I wouldn't want to use it for social purposes if I had an alternative. I imagine that thing would overpenetrate at 300 fps.

[mescalero1]

I think you are correct in your assertions!

[SPROCKET]

I may be telling you what you already know. But, Speer makes a .44 Special specific Gold Dot; #4427. Supposed to give more reliable expansion at .44 Special velocities.

I use those, driven by a warmish load of Unique in my HD gun.