Am I missing something?

[Vikurt2002]

Hi, I'm new to this site and I could sure use some help... I just found a Winchester model 94 .30 WCF and the serial number is 1320XX. According to armscollectors.com and savage99.com the rifle was made in 1898. When I first looked at the rifles at the local gun shop (Iwas looking for a pre-64 model 94) I wrote down all the serial #'s of the 94's and went home and looked up the years. I thought I must have written it down wrong, maybe left out one digit because it looked to me like much newer model and if I had left a digit out then 1320XXX would be in the 1943-48 range. Well to make a long story longer, I went back to the gunshop to double check and sure enough, a six digit serial. So I bought the rifle. Am I missing something or could this really be made in 1898? I don't know what else to go by really but the serial. It was priced the same as another 94 made in 1948... either way I'm happy with the rifle because I've wanted one of these since I was a kid, but any help would be appreciated. (I do have some pictures but I'm still working on figuring out how to post them)
Thanks,
Kurt

[Nath]

Patience and welcome Vikurt, maybe it was refurbed??
Others will soon follow

Nath.

[Vikurt2002]

Here are some pictures:

[Vikurt2002]

[Vikurt2002]

[Vikurt2002]

[cowboykell]

Sure looks like a reblue to me. 1894s are famous for losing the blue on the receivers. I've owned a few "antique" 1894s that were almost silvered out.

[Charles]

I have seen many Winchesters that old with the original blue in top notch shape. It doesn't look like it has been polished and henced reblued to me. I don't know when Winchester started to produce the 94 carbine, but I have a feeling it was after 1898. I can't fine my Winchester book right now to check, but there be plenty of folks here who can provide you with that information.

[Vikurt2002]

Sure looks like a reblue to me. 1894s are famous for losing the blue on the receivers. I've owned a few "antique" 1894s that were almost silvered out.

I'd like to use the rifle for deer hunting, it seems to be in good shape to me... do you think I'd have any issues with using a 110 year old rifle for that? I'm guessing if it's been refurbished/reblued it's not worth more than I paid for it so I don't neccessarily need to keep it like it's just an antique for looking at... And just as an aside, when I took these pictures I had just brought it home and it was a little foggy from the cold...

[Nath]

I thought the 94 was released in 95, yes no?
Looks original to me
The loading gate looks different to me compared to later ones.

Nath

[J Miller]

Vikurt2002,

The receiver may have been made in 1898, but there are numerous things that remove this carbine from being collectible. First the recoil pad ruins it. Second the buggered up screws. And lastly the barrel. The barrel has a ramped front sight on it and a Marbles rear sight. The ramped front sights didn't come into being until I believe sometime in the 1930s. So the barrel most likely has been replaced.
If it was a factory barrel replacement it could have been refinished as well. That would eliminate much of the over polishing we so often see.

Take it hunting? Absolutely! There's no collectors value there so by all means go make meat with it.

Joe

[J Miller]

I thought the 94 was released in 95, yes no?
Looks original to me
The loading gate looks different to me compared to later ones.

Nath

Nath,
The Winchester model of 1894 was indeed released in 1894. However the 30WCF caliber had to wait until 1895 due to problems getting the smokeless barrel steel right.
The loading gates on the pre-64s are all machined as one solid piece. The loading gates on the later guns have been stamped and folded. They are cheap junk by comparison to the machined ones.

Joe

[Vikurt2002]

I thought the 94 was released in 95, yes no?
Looks original to me
The loading gate looks different to me compared to later ones.

Nath

And I wondered about the stock, I would think that would have had a metal plate originally... also I read that the pre 1920's carbines had saddle rings, I wonder if all of them did or just certain ones?

[Nath]

Cheers Joe, I knew 1895 was significant somewhere.
So was there any smokeless cals released in 94?

Don't wish to hi jack

Nath.

[J Miller]

I thought the 94 was released in 95, yes no?
Looks original to me
The loading gate looks different to me compared to later ones.

Nath

And I wondered about the stock, I would think that would have had a metal plate originally... also I read that the pre 1920's carbines had saddle rings, I wonder if all of them did or just certain ones?

Vikurt,
That carbine could have started out as a rifle, then with the barrel change become a carbine. Even if it were an original carbine, it could have come without a saddle ring. Not all of them did.
It would also have had either a carbine but plate or a crescent but plate, or if special ordered a flat shotgun but plate.
There is a bunch of ways it "could have been". The only way I know of to be sure is to write a letter to the Cody Museum and get a letter from them. It's in the age bracket they still have info. It costs a bit, but then you'd know for sure what it was originally.

Joe

[J Miller]

Cheers Joe, I knew 1895 was significant somewhere.
So was there any smokeless cals released in 94?

Don't wish to hi jack

Nath.

No, only the black powder cartridges were released in 1894. IIRC, they were the 38-55, 32-40. The 30WCF and 25-35 were released in 1895. The 32WS after the turn of the century, 1912?? "I think". I gotta buy me some Winchester books.

Joe

[Vikurt2002]

I thought the 94 was released in 95, yes no?
Looks original to me
The loading gate looks different to me compared to later ones.

Nath

And I wondered about the stock, I would think that would have had a metal plate originally... also I read that the pre 1920's carbines had saddle rings, I wonder if all of them did or just certain ones?

Vikurt,
That carbine could have started out as a rifle, then with the barrel change become a carbine. Even if it were an original carbine, it could have come without a saddle ring. Not all of them did.
It would also have had either a carbine but plate or a crescent but plate, or if special ordered a flat shotgun but plate.
There is a bunch of ways it "could have been". The only way I know of to be sure is to write a letter to the Cody Museum and get a letter from them. It's in the age bracket they still have info. It costs a bit, but then you'd know for sure what it was originally.

Joe

Thanks Joe, appreciate all the info... I was really looking for a pre-64 that I could use for hunting, not a collector's piece anyway. My Grandpa had one when I was a kid and I've always wanted one like his. As long as this one won't have any problems with modern cartridges I think it'll work fine. My other option would be to take it back and get the other pre 64 (1948) model 94 for 100.00 more. That one is probably more all original etc. but I think the only reason I'd do that is if there was some reason this one shouldn't be used. What do you think?

Kurt

[Chuck 100 yd]

If it is in sound mechanical condition without excessive headspace it will be safe with factory ammo. The factorys take those old girls into account when they load ammo. Shoot her and make meat!

[Vikurt2002]

If it is in sound mechanical condition without excessive headspace it will be safe with factory ammo. The factorys take those old girls into account when they load ammo. Shoot her and make meat!

Well then.. that's just what I'll do! Thanks!!

[J Miller]

Vikurt,

Like I said above, take the old girl and go make meat. Nuther words, go kill something dear like for supper.

I'm not sure the factories take the old rifles into consideration when they load the 30-30 ammo. Since the 30-30 was a smokeless cartridge from the start the loads have done nothing but get more powerful. As long as the head space is withing specs there's nothing at all wrong with shooting current factory ammo through that carbine.

Joe

[Vikurt2002]

Vikurt,

Like I said above, take the old girl and go make meat. Nuther words, go kill something dear like for supper.

I'm not sure the factories take the old rifles into consideration when they load the 30-30 ammo. Since the 30-30 was a smokeless cartridge from the start the loads have done nothing but get more powerful. As long as the head space is withing specs there's nothing at all wrong with shooting current factory ammo through that carbine.

Joe

Can I tell by looking/measuring if the headspace is good or do I need a gunsmith to do that?

[Chuck 100 yd]

I have a set of headspace gauges. That is the best way to be sure.
I would fire a factory load with the rifle held at arms length. Eject and closly inspect the case. If the primer is not protruding more than a couple thousanths and the case looks ok it probably is ok.

Joe said that factory loads have gotten hotter over the years and that is very true. Powders have gotten better also. Ammo can be loaded to much more velocity while staying under maximum pressures today.

Enjoy!!

[JerryB]

I think you did real good on your deal. Shoot one round and look it over, if it looks ok load it up and enjoy it.

[Vikurt2002]

Thanks guys! I sure appreciate all the help.
Kurt

[Lastmohecken]

Does the rifle say Nickel Steel on the barrel? I don't know for sure, but didn't all of the early Winchester 30/30 barrels say "Nickel Steel" on them? And when did they quite putting the words "Nickel Steel" on the barrels?

[20cows]

The receiver may have been made in 1898, but there are numerous things that remove this carbine from being collectible. First the recoil pad ruins it. Second the buggered up screws. And lastly the barrel. The barrel has a ramped front sight on it and a Marbles rear sight. The ramped front sights didn't come into being until I believe sometime in the 1930s. So the barrel most likely has been replaced.
If it was a factory barrel replacement it could have been refinished as well. That would eliminate much of the over polishing we so often see.

...So, it's an early puzzle!

I like puzzles!

[Vikurt2002]

Does the rifle say Nickel Steel on the barrel? I don't know for sure, but didn't all of the early Winchester 30/30 barrels say "Nickel Steel" on them? And when did they quite putting the words "Nickel Steel" on the barrels?

It says "Winchester Proof Steel"...

[J Miller]

Does the rifle say Nickel Steel on the barrel? I don't know for sure, but didn't all of the early Winchester 30/30 barrels say "Nickel Steel" on them? And when did they quite putting the words "Nickel Steel" on the barrels?

It says "Winchester Proof Steel"...

It's a later barrel then. When they quit using the "Nickel Steel" stamping and went to the "Winchester Proof Steel", I don't know.

If you ever get the urge, remove the bands, magazine tube and forearm. On the bottom of the barrel, by the front of the receiver is usually a date. This will date the barrel. At least then you'd know about when it was changed out.

Lastmohecken, only the smokeless barrels were stamped "Nickel Steel".

Joe

[Vikurt2002]

How difficult would it be to go back to the old style buttplate? Can you tell from the pictures if the stock was cut when this recoil pad was added? I don't mind if the rifle is a puzzle but I would like it to look more traditional...

[winchester1886]

Vikurt I would say your carbine is a 1898 production by the tang markings, it has the markings of a first model 94, if your barrel has two proof marks on the top of it just ahead of the receiver then it is a Winchester rebarrel, if you can put a picture of the barrel markings on for us to look at we will be able to tell you about when the barrel was made.
But looks good anyway hope it shoots good and you have fun with it.

[Vikurt2002]

[Vikurt2002]

I paid 500.00 for it... does that seems about right?

[winchester1886]

Vikurt it isn't a Winchester rebarrel so the barrel could have come from another carbine, if you would like to put a picture of the Winchester markings from the side of the barrel on for us to see we can tell you roughly when the barrel was made, with the front ramp sight it does look like a later barrel, if it was rebarreled it is quite likely it could have been reblued at the same time.

[airedaleman]

Carbine also has a later than 1898 production hammer. Very interesting gun...

[Buffboy]

How difficult would it be to go back to the old style buttplate? Can you tell from the pictures if the stock was cut when this recoil pad was added? I don't mind if the rifle is a puzzle but I would like it to look more traditional...

It's hard to tell if the stock was cut in the pictures. I'd say it looks to be a longer length of pull than normal. It's possible that the pad was just added with no cutting of the stock. Get a steel butt plate and see if it fits pretty close. If it was cut it won't be close at all. It is unlikely to be a perfect fit as they were ground to fit during finishing originally or you can measure the length of pull from the receiver to the beginning of the pad and post that number here. Someone will be able to tell you if it was cut.

Quite a few of these old rifles were rebarreled after WW2 because of corrosive primers and steel jacketed military surplus bullets reloaded during wartime(all that was available). They trashed a lot of barrels. My grandfather rebarreled his 25-35 to 30-30 in 1948(ish) for that reason.