OT: Anyone with 6.5x54 MS Experience?

[Bruce Scott]

I spotted this Steyr 1901 Sporting Rrifle in 6.5x54 Mannlicher Shoenauer that would fit nicely in my gun safe.

The cartridge has an interesting history. Just wondering if reloading components (and data - there's nothing in my Lee Manual) are reasonably readily available. I understand cartridges are still manufactured in Europe.

[KCSO]

I had a 6.5x54 M/S in about 1972. I eventually sold it as it was hard to get proper bullets for it. Mine had an oversize bore and standard 6.5 bullets were too small for best accuracy and at that time I was not intrested in shooting cast in that gun. Somewhere in my notebook I have the data that I used back then. The 6.5 is a good big game cartridge and I would rate it as a little better killer on game than say a 30-30. But accuracy is hard to get.

[airedaleman]

I'd double-check on the chambering! That rifle looks like a Roumanian Mannlicher, very popular with English makers back around the turn of the century, and if so, it is probably chambered for the RIMMED 6.5x53mm Roumanian cartridge . The rifle pictured uses cartridges loaded en bloc (in a clip without which the rifle will not function as a repeater). Definitely
NOT a Mannlicher-Schoenauer which has a rotary magazine similar to the 99 Savage. Again, I'd double-check...

[Hobie]

I'd double-check on the chambering! That rifle looks like a Roumanian Mannlicher, very popular with English makers back around the turn of the century, and if so, it is probably chambered for the RIMMED 6.5x53mm Roumanian cartridge . The rifle pictured uses cartridges loaded en bloc (in a clip without which the rifle will not function as a repeater). Definitely
NOT a Mannlicher-Schoenauer which has a rotary magazine similar to the 99 Savage. Again, I'd double-check...

I believe you're are right as to the ID on the rifle. the 6.5x53 Romanian can be formed from the .303 Brit. Not terribly hard to do IIRC. .268" bullets are available, if needed, and made by Hornady, again IIRC.

[John in MS]

Howdy,

I have experience with a rifle very similar to that -- a 6.5x53R Jefferey (London) sporter built on a Steyr 1898-marked action, with Lyman bolt peep sight and folding express sights. The bore was dark but strong, and slugged 0.268" on the grooves, but accuracy was fine with Hornady 160 gr. .264" RNSP bullets. Hobie is correct, brass can be formed from .303 British. I got to mike some original Dutch military 160 gr. FMJ's and also original German WW2 production steel case ammo, and both had bullets tapering from the front, increasing in diameter to .264". (In other words, they were not parallel-sided bullets of .264" diameter most of their length.) For that reason, I did not experiment with the .268" Hornady bullets; figured with the age of the rifle and its' value, I didn't want to do anything to increase pressures.

The rifle does take a steel en-bloc clip similar to a Carcano's, and the clip drops out of the action when the last round is chambered. They can be found, and range anywhere from $3.00 each to $15.00 each, depending on how badly the source wants to gouge you. Be careful how you load them; make sure the cartridge rims go in their corresponding slot in the back of the clip, and they will last a long time, being steel. If, in the loading/unloading process the lips get spread apart a bit, they are easily re-tensioned by hand. Original clips are blued steel, and usually are dated with a 2-digit date (example, 29 for 1929) and "AI" for Artillerie Inrichtigen, the Dutch arsenal. There may be other stamps also, but AI is on the ones I have seen. When you are out hunting, it can be helpful to put a strip of tape over the mag opening at the bottom to keep from losing your en-bloc clip when you chamber the last round (unless you're taking on dangerous game, of course!!) There is a handy button which allows you to pop the remaining rounds/clip out of the action without having to cycle them through the rifle to unload.

By the way, German ammo I've seen is packed in 30-round brown, cardboard boxes; if you see one with a label over-stamp of "Fur MG," DON'T shoot it in your rifle, it's labeled for machine-gun use and may well be loaded hotter than standard rifle ammo.

RCBS charges about $300 for the case forming dies -- amazingly, a friend lucked into a set slightly used for much cheaper. The brass is easy to form, and in our experience, with OUR dies/chamber/brass, inside neck reaming was not necessary. (Although we tried using the reamer that comes with the form dies, it removed no brass). Some folks form the cases without forming dies, and some research on the net should help you on that procedure. Be sure to form them from NEW UNFIRED .303 brass, as the web area ahead of the rim may be too large on fired .303 brass to chamber in the Mannlicher. I believe Ken Waters covered this rifle model/caliber in his excellent book, "Pet Loads," under the old European/English name of .256 Mannlicher (used in the old days to help differentiate between the 6.5x53R and 6.5x54 MS.) In a worst-case scenario, Bertram Brass (Australia) does make the cases, although they are expensive (in the US, at least). The pressures are mild, however, and with careful handloading, the brass should last quite a long time.

It is a mild, very pleasant cartridge to shoot. While its' ballistics are essentially identical to the .30-30 (on paper) -- about 34 grains of powder, 160 gr. bullet, at about 2250 fps, the one I shot had basically NO recoil. It was truly astounding. The stock must play some part in the difference, I think -- you definitely notice a significant difference between a .30-30 Win 94 carbine and this 6.5x53R, even though the old sporters tend to run very lightweight. I just could not believe how little recoil there was with the Mannlicher. It worked very well on a feral hog culling operation. One fully-adrenalized wild hog (about 125 lbs) was running from left to right at about 15 yards range, full-tilt, and I put a 160 Hornady just over its front shoulder. It literally didn't take another step -- just hit the ground instantly and skidded to a halt on its' chin. There was about a 2-foot high plume of dust where the bullet went through and hit behind it, and while the exit hole was small, the hog was stone dead RIGHT THERE, RIGHT THEN. Needless to say, with its very long bullet and high sectional density, it out-penetrates a .30-30 effortlessly, and the cartridge has earned a good reputation for effectiveness afield far in excess of what you'd think from its' paper ballistics. Famed ivory hunter, W.D.M. Bell took a couple hundred elephant (IIRC, over 300, actually) with its' ballistic twin, the 6.5x54MS, until he decided to move up to a "heavier" rifle (7x57 Mauser with 175 gr. RN- FMJ's.)

If the bore's not damaged beyond repair (pay attention to the crown), I'd jump all over it, myself, if the price is even close to reasonable. It's a little extra work to get one of these up and running, but they are truly worth the effort. There's just nothing like hunting with one of these classic old-timers. I wouldn't worry about mild to moderate pitting of the bore, as long as the crown is good; I have seen bores that were eroded and mild-moderately pitted their full length shoot sub-MOA consistently with jacketed bullets.

They are really cool and, as always, if you buy it, you GOTTA post pics!!

Hope this helps,
John

[Bruce Scott]

Thanks for all responses.

I Emailed the seller/owner for more info, which does not amount to a lot more. The only markings on the rifle are 'Steyr', '1901' and 'B3504'. He bought it as a 6.5x54MS but has never fired it nor had any ammo for it. Although it is licenced to him as a 6.5x54MS he cannot be 100% certain of its actual chambering.


Seller's Description:
"This is a very scarce Steyr Mannlicher style factory made sporting rifle. It has been stored in grease for many years and still has traces of grease in places. In glorious condition for its age. Beautiful chequered stock. Adjustable rear peep sight is actually part of the rear of the bolt. It has provision for side scope mount however this has been removed at some time. Missing its front sling swivel. At some point long past it has fired corrosive ammunition and was not cleaned well and although not shiny the rifling is still deep and crisp with well defined lands and grooves."

More pics:



Pity about the side mount holes....

[Bruce Scott]

Lots of very useful info....and:

They are really cool and, as always, if you buy it, you GOTTA post pics!!

Hope this helps,
John

John,
Thank you. That is most helpful and I'm still inclined to go for it and, if so, pics will definitely be posted.

[junkbug]

I have a rifle that looks very much like that. Mine is a M-95 KNIL (Dutch Colonial) carbine in 6.5x53Rmm. Looks like that one was either a Dutch or Romanian Long rifle that was sporterized.

I understand the surplus Dutch rifles and carbines were once very available and inexpensive in Austrailia, since many were imported out of Indonesia. Some are found bored out to .303 British, which was done by the Indonesian government after WWII.


I form ammo for mine using 7.62X54R Russian dies and 6.5X55 Swedish dies, and of course .303 British casings.

I resise the shoulder using the Russian dies. This has to be done slowly, a little at a time, or the shoulder will crease. Then I trim to legnth, and then re-size in the 6.5 Swedish die. Measure, trim again if necessary. Mine has not needed neck reaming, both mu chamber and bore must be an the large side.

So for I have gotten key-hole and 18" groups at 25 yard, using .264" roundnoses. I have a batch of .269" cast bullets ready to go, so that is my next step. As John in MS stated, crown condition iis important, and mine was suspect. I am in the process of refacing it with a Brownell's tool.

If you decide to get it, I'll be pulling for you. Mine has been a lot of fun, and a learning experience. Since mine is a carbine with tiny issue sights, I'll be thrilled to get 2-3" groups out of it at 50 yards. Your long rifle, with the peep sights should be able to do as well at 100 yards, even with a dark bore.

Sean

[Bruce Scott]

....been doing a bit more digging around. Do these look like the right clips?



The seller has AU$750 (US$513.55) on it. What do you think?

[airedaleman]

Bruce, I don't believe that rifle is a converted military rifle. British gunmakers imported barrelled actions from the Continent-
most notably these Mannlichers and Mausers - and built fine sporting rifles such as the one you are looking at. Back in the mid-60's, Navy Arms bought crates of confiscated firearms from one of the emerging African nations once a British colony, and sold many of them right out of the crate for $25.00, cosmoline and all! I picked up a Lee-Speed .303 with a matted barrel, express sights, checkering, some light engraving, and the magazine attached to a German silver chain for $25.00! They did handpick a lot of guns, and out of that same shipment I saw a Mannlicher identical to the one we're discussing, but it was out of my price range; I think it was going for $125.00.
Not to pick, but I think the bolt handle on the rifle in question is a replacement done at the time whatever scope and mount
were added. (The bolt handle doesn't exhibit the same craftsmanship as the rest of the rifle)
The pictures below come from the April 1939 issue of the American Rifleman, illustrating an article by an Englishman who was discussing the "back position," or what we call in the States the Creedmoor position. The gentleman in the lower photo
has a Mannlicher-actioned rifle.