OT: Still In Service

[Bruce Scott]

No.4 Lee Enfields in the hands of Bombay police during the recent terrorist activity.

[Jaguarundi]

Cool.MSN also had footage of the Mumbai (Bombay) LE toten the ol'Lee Enfield Rifle ! I remember seeing footage back in the early 90's of the Yugoslavia breakup.Many Yugo M48(98 Mauser variant)Rifles chambered in 8 mauser along with sniper models in use then.

[junkbug]

The No 4, Mk1 (or 2) makes as almost much sense a a police long arm as a pump action 12 guage, except in very hevy urban areas. When the criminals are using AK 47s, it makes more. Bet the Enfields were gotten less expensively than 12 guage pump shotguns would have been.

[Mike D.]

Were they issued ammunition to go along with the Enfields, or were they supposed to be used as clubs?

[Nath]

None of them are aiming at anything!

Nath

[J Miller]

Being an American, who should be a fan of American designs, I am a fanatical lover of the British Enfields. Ever since my very first center fire bolt action which was a British made No4 Mk1 I haven't been without at least one. It does my heart good so see they are still in use.

That said, I cannot understand the issuing of firearms without ammo. Either issue ammo for them and be ready and able to use them, or leave them in the racks.

Joe

[2ndovc]

Were they issued ammunition to go along with the Enfields, or were they supposed to be used as clubs?

That's the bulge in their shirt pockets. One Barney Bullet

jb

[junkbug]

Though I have no credible source for this belief, I would surmise that they were issued the rifles with just enough cartridges to fill or partially fill the magazine, and no more. They do not look like "first responders".

Reminds me of a story from an older friend who was in the Canadian Army, and in England during and after Dunkirk. His section all had rifles, but they had 1 clip of ammo for 10 men. They took turns carrying that single clip, while patrolig the English coastline. He was happy they never needed it.

[Ray Newman]

junkbug: several of the UK newspapers reported that the Indians were really caught w/ their pants down as the local cops & security forces are woefully under funded & don't have the funds for training, range practice, equipment, etc. Since these reports have not been denied by the Indians, I give them credence.

Mike D & 2ndovc: BINGO!

I've been asking the same thing since I 1st saw these pictures of the L-E "in action". I have yet to see a security or police office or whatever who is carrying a L-E have a bandolier or cartridge belt, etc., for ammunition.

In one close-up picture though, I did see one policeman's name on his uniform: "Barney Fife"....

[Bruce Scott]

Being an American, who should be a fan of American designs, I am a fanatical lover of the British Enfields. Ever since my very first center fire bolt action which was a British made No4 Mk1 I haven't been without at least one. It does my heart good so see they are still in use.
Joe

Joe,
We often forget the American connection. If not for James Paris Lee we would never have had Lee Enfields.

[Bruce Scott]

Were they issued ammunition to go along with the Enfields, or were they supposed to be used as clubs?

I just hope that they had a full mag.....

[JerryB]

Do ya'll reckon that they are the Ishapore .308 rifles? My son has one that is a pretty good shooter.

[J Miller]

Bruce,
You are correct. I tend to forget historical persons, who does what, who invents what. All I know is that the Enfields are British or British Commonwealth rifles, and Springfield O3-A3s are American rifles.
I've had a bunch of Enfields in my time, but nary an O3-A3. Oh well.

Jerry,
Possibly, but I don't think so. The magazines are rounded just like the 303 mags. The 7.62 mags are a more of a blocky shape with a flat bottom.

Joe

[JReed]

Do ya'll reckon that they are the Ishapore .308 rifles? My son has one that is a pretty good shooter.

That would not suprise me in the least. If they are it would be easier for the Indian Gov to get reliable ammo instead of using old 1940's .303 surplus ammo.

[Noah Zark]

Speaking of still in service:

Each of these originally entered US service over 50 years ago, and the latest iterations are still serving:

Boeing B52:
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/mil ... 75X300.jpg


M2 .50 MG:
http://drewsarmygear.com/yahoo_site_adm ... 19_std.jpg


M35 6X6:
http://www.freewebs.com/jeandaveyaros/6x6duece.jpg


Noah

[Ray Newman]

If memory serves me correct & pretty certain it does:

--India's Rifle Factory Ishapore (RFI) re-designed & fabricated only the No.1 Mk III* Enfield to accommodate the 7.62 NATO round. This “new” rifle is the 2A & the 2A1. In appearance it is very similar to the No 1, Mk III*, originally built by India & the UK facilities.

--The UK & I believe Canada did convert some No. 4 rifles to 7.62, but not many as there was some sort of patent infringement action brought by the designer/original conversion kit manufacturer. A limited number were made into sniper rifles.

Dollars to donuts these are run-of-the-mill No.4 , calibre .303 British, rifles possibly captured from Pakistan or bought on the surplus market.

Skennerton’s latest edition of the “Lee-Enfield” has a chapter on Indian rifle, BREN, ammunition, artillery, etc., production. The amount & kinds of material produced @ the various arsenals is impressive & production of the No 1, Mk III* continued @ RFI until the late 1950‘s -- at the least. There are examples of later dated --1980's -- RFI No. 1 .303 cal. rifles but is unknown if these are new rfiles made @ that date or refurbished rifles & a new date applied as the RFI is famous (some say infamous)f or scrubbing all OEM markings.

Considering the wide spread use & stores of No 1 rifles in India, fabrication of .303 ammunition more than likely continued on for some time.

Only Pakistan (POF --Pakistan Ordnance Factory) fabricated the No.4 Mk II rifle when it purchased the requisite surplus machinery from the UK ROF Fazakerly

[Bruce Scott]

Jerry,
Possibly, but I don't think so. The magazines are rounded just like the 303 mags. The 7.62 mags are a more of a blocky shape with a flat bottom.
Joe

Yup. Here's an Ishapore 2A1 magazine.



Apart from the magazine the 2A and 2A1 are almost identical to the No1 Mk3.

[J Miller]

Besides my Canadian No4 Mk1* I also have an Ishapore 2a No 1 Mk3 that's all original and matching with a perfect bore. It is by far the most funnest to shoot of all the Enfields I've owned. It's magazine is exactly like the one in Bruce's picture. That's how I be knowing this.

As for the No4 Mk1s in the photo at the top, there ain't one darn thing wrong with the 303 Brit round. When they finalized the design at the Mk7 or Mk7z ball round they got it right.


Joe