.444 Cartridge Issue

[Old Time Hunter]

Guys, need your help. I've been loading .444 Remington brass with Speer 240 gr JSP's for years and utilizing a charge of 47.5 grains of H4198 as my powder. Generally good results...except, even with a stought crimp in the cannelure my bullets push back when in the magazine. They never push beyond the cannelure and seemingly can not because of the heavy crimp that the Lee Factory Crimp die puts on them. Is it time to change bullets?

[Terry Murbach]

IN ALL PROBABILITY THIS IS A SIZING DIE PROBLEM---THE DIE BEING A BIT LARGE IN THE ID--OR AN EXPANDER PLUG PROBLEM, IT BEING A BIT TOO BIG ON THE OD.
ON THE OTHER HAND IF YOU'RE USING THE SAME BRASS YOU STARTED WITH IT MAY BE WARN OUT; NOTHING LASTS FOREVER YOU KNOW.
AND FINALLY, WHY ARE YOU NOT CRIMPING THEM WHERE GOD PROVIDED, THE CANNELURE ON THE BULLET ??
WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO CHANGE BULLETS ??

[Pete44ru]

OTH said he is crimping the bullets in the cannelure, Terry. " a stout crimp in the cannelure"

OTH - Is sounds like the recoil is forcing the forward cartridge against the next rerarward bullet nose, driving it down into the case.

Are you in fact crimping the case mouth fully INTO the cannelure, and not just barely over it's rearward edge ?

If that's the case, then - when the bullet's driven into the case - the case mouth catches on the cannelure's forward edge, stopping the movement. The cure is to get a crimp die if the Lee die doesn't crimp fully.

If you ARE crimping fully into the cannelure, it's possible that the bullet is camming the case mouth outward enough to slip by.
Are you inside chamfering tthe case mouth ? If so, is it too much ?

.

[Modoc ED]

I reload my .444 plinking loads with Speer 240gr Gold Dot Soft Point (not hollow point) bullets. I crimp them in the cannelure with a heavy crimp using the Lee Factory Crimp die. When using that die for the .444 loads, I adjust the die just a hair more that LEE's recommended adjustment and I crimp each round twice -- crimp it and then crimp again (takes precious little time). I have had no problems with set-back.

I use 48.2gr of H-4198 in my reloads with Remington Brass and Winchester LRP primers. It is an accurate load in my Marlin .444S Microgroove rifle.

[O.S.O.K.]

I'd use a roll crimp in the cannelure instead of the Lee factory crimp in this case. And crimp it just under the foreward or nose end of the cannelure. It should not move any deeper that way. Do trim your cases though so that the crimp is applied evenly - this is the beauty of the Lee factory crimp of course - not dependend on the case length, but I really do think a roll crimp is called for in this case.

And I agree -this is a crimp issue not a bullet issue.

[Nath]

Has your crimp die got crud in the collet slots that is stopping it from giving a full crimp?
I had this happen to me after crimping lubed cast bullets with it!

Nath.

[J Miller]

I'd start by measuring the expander. It should be several thousands smaller than your bullet.

Joe

[BenT]

If you used compressed loads to begin with ,you wouldn't have this problem.

Sorry that's all I got. Everybody else seemed to cover any reason's I could think of.

[Old Time Hunter]

Geez guys, appreciate the come backs. I do size and trim and chamfer each time and use an COL of 2.552" which places the crimp on the bottom edge of the cannelure. The Speer bullets mic'd at .429 diameter and when initially loaded it takes considerable force to make them move manually. I have pulled the bullets out and re-sized, but it seems as though as soon as the bullet stretches the case, they have no memory and stay strectched. I have tried to use the roll crimp method and that has failed also. The Lee factory crimp die appears to be closing all the way, the slots touch, and the edge of the case indents to the bottom of the cannelure groove. 'Spose if I fill cases to 49.5+ grains the powder would hold it, but I've settled on the 47.5 grains of H4198 as being the most accurate and still generating over 2300 fps average. With 49 grains it bumps up to 2400 fps, but the accuracy is not as tight.

[Modoc ED]

Geez guys, appreciate the come backs. I do size and trim and chamfer each time and use an COL of 2.552" which places the crimp on the bottom edge of the cannelure. The Speer bullets mic'd at .429 diameter and when initially loaded it takes considerable force to make them move manually. I have pulled the bullets out and re-sized, but it seems as though as soon as the bullet stretches the case, they have no memory and stay strectched. I have tried to use the roll crimp method and that has failed also. The Lee factory crimp die appears to be closing all the way, the slots touch, and the edge of the case indents to the bottom of the cannelure groove. 'Spose if I fill cases to 49.5+ grains the powder would hold it, but I've settled on the 47.5 grains of H4198 as being the most accurate and still generating over 2300 fps average. With 49 grains it bumps up to 2400 fps, but the accuracy is not as tight.

Try adjusting that crimp die just past the point where the jaws touch -- adjust the die so the jaws touch just a hair before the complete stroke of the press handle. When you do that, it'll feel like the die is "springing". Hard to describe exactly but it should feel like when you make a complete stroke of the press handle it will feel like the handle has sprung.

Hope that makes sense.

[Ben_Rumson]

Old Time Hunter... Crimp a case against the top edge of cannelure.. Yes your cartridge will be somewhat shorter but in effect the cartridges that the bullets are getting pushed back in now are already that length...

[flatnose]

Old Time Hunter,
You dont have a problem.
The crimp and cannelure are both doing their job. If you want to get the best possible crimp, anneal the casemouth, and add a standard crimp.
If your brass has become work hardened, a harder crimp can actually cause less grip on the bullet. This is because the area immediatley behind the crimp can bulge up and away from the surface of the bullet. In extreme cases, I have seen bullets that will wobble or feel loose in the case necks, but the bullet is still held secure enough as to not jump the cannelure.

[Pete44ru]

[I do size and trim and chamfer each time]
[I have re-sized, but as soon as the bullet stretches the case, they have no memory and stay strectched.]

Two things:

One - There's no need to trim/chamfer at each reloading, only after when/if the cases stretch enough to require trimming. The excess chamfering might be contributing to the leverage the bullet's getting on the case mouth to cam it outward and slip by.

Two - Have you been keeping track of the number of times those cases have been reloaded ?
The more brass is reworked, as at each reload, the more brittle and less elastic it gets.
Try annealing the case mouths by setting the cases in a shallow pan, bases down in 1/2" of water, and heating them with a small propane torch until the necks turn color.

.

[Ben_Rumson]

Have a look at this bullet's cannelure.. Should be perfect for the LFCD
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.e ... mid=226442

I noticed on some 300gr bullets the cannelure looks farther back from the nose, meaning you could crimp above the cannelure directly into the jacket.

[Old Time Hunter]

Here is what I use: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.e ... mid=302951

Trim cases to length set by the Lee Trimmer, COL of 2.552"

When the bullet pushes in to the top of the cannelure the COL is 2.520" or .0315" shorter. They work fine in a Marlin, but...with the slightly larger action of the Winchester????

As far as how often I reload, I honestly can not tell you since I do not keep track. I do know that brand new brass does hold tighter.

[BenT]

I would test the brass using maybe hornady 265 gr, they should be .430 , and see if you have the same affect. If it does then I would say your brass is losing it's elasticity. Annealing is an option or just new brass. It's hard to throw out brass that looks good. Specialy at the price of new stuff.

Your spot on with you load. I found 48gr of H4198 with the Speer 240 to be the most accurate in my Marlin , I didn't try 47.5gr.

Good Luck !