Model 336 .35 rem DILEMA

[Centerfire Leverman]

Hi Guys, I have a bit of a dilema.Let me explain.Last year my friend and I zeroed a new scope on his Marlin 336 .35 rem.We fired Remington Express Core-Lokt 200 grain Roundnose Cartridges.All went well.We shot about a Box of these Cartridges that day.Last year my friend gave the Rifle to me as very hard times had hit my wife and I.I never fired the rifle again until 3 weeks ago.Due to a shoulder injury I wanted to reduce recoil and bought two Brand New Boxes of the EXACT type ammo except in 150 grain psp.I went to my friends to practice some and see if the gun was still zeroed.Out of a Box of 20 rounds 7 fired.Never in my life had this happen with Remington Ammo or a Marlin Rifle.Let me mention this.I ordered a Hammer spur from Marlin for the rifle about 4-5 weeks ago.The Rifle looks very good.I found out to my suprise it had been made in 1968.To continue,the 13 rounds that did not fire were almost or all not hit hard enough by the firing pin and were getting hit by the pin a little forward,backward,left,or right nearly every time.One barely hit the primer a little while 2-3 might have should fired.NEVER did more than 2 shots fire in a row.I took the rifle to a friend of mine who checked the firing pin,etc,etc, and all looked good.The only thing we could think of was the Hammer Spring seemed a little weak.He tried to stretch the spring a little and he said go try it out.If this dosen't work I'll put the new spring in when it comes in.I took the Ammuntion to a Gunsmith.Both boxes and the primer depth recession was within specifications in each box.He felt a weak spring was likely the problem.After I had ordered a new hammer spring from Marlin my friend put it in.It did give the hammer more snap to it if you will.Back to the friend of mine's range I went.Out of the second Box of Ammo 5 of 14 fired.Same result as first time.NEVER more than two shots in a row would fire.The hammer spring came in new from Marlin and he put it in.Third time back to my friends range.Shot number 1 fired,2 and 3 failed.Problem still the same.I never wasted any more of the 3-4 new UNFIRED ones I had left.I happen to realize after looking down that I had brought a Box of 20 Remington Express Core-Lokt 200 grain roundnose my buddy had give me last year with the rifle.Brand new box of 20.For some reason I had this gut feeling they were going to fire.At the 50 yard target I proceeded to fire 8 consecutive shots leaving a ragged 1.5 group/hole.Each primer was hit at the right depth and all pretty much centered.I could not help but sigh after my shoulder ached on the right round.O.K. I downloaded a New 336 Owners manual noting the two alerts in black and 4 warnings in Red to shoot the proper type ammuntion.Had I known this I would have bought the 200 grain bullet or the Hornady but I am not sure about it's pointed tip.I had shot these in a friend of mines rifle made in 1977-78 around the early 1980's with no problem.Remington does not specify for use in Magazine type rifles not tubular nor does Marlin state which TYPES of pointed ammunition.So let's don't known down ammo sales because somebody COULD have a chain reaction in a tubular magazine do to PSP Cartridges just because they might get killed,seriously injured, or the firearm be ruined at the least.Remington above all should state this on the box knowing some people will inadvertently shoot the 150 grain Core-Lokt PSP.So this question arose.Why did the 200 grain shoot 8 straight accurrate shots with the primers hit correctly and the 150 grain shoot 13 0ut of 36-37 rounds never more than two in a row firing.Two schools out thought are at work here and two gunsmiths disagree ,Marlin Customer service man named Ed agreeing with one of them.I made a post in another forum.The first reply made sense to me since WITHOUT ANY DOUBT there is inconsistency with the firing of the 150 grains,plus every gun is different to itself in some respects I guess.The first man replied he thought the 200 grain do to be a hair longer and bigger around were seating in the lands and grooves a lot better.Like they should.The 150 grain being a little shorter and the with the pointed tip were not seating good in the lands and grooves of the gun causing what he called rattling(movement being made in the 150 grain).Also among the comments were factory ammunitiion does not have consistent bullet seating into the case on each round.I needed to clean smudge or sand any burrs off the firing pin.But the biggest most important disagreement is about chamber or head spacing inside the Barrel.Ed at Marlin said it needed to be checked.One gunsmith said he thought so also and was suprised Marlin never ask me to send it back.A older gunsmith near me made the most sense to me.If it were a head/chamber space issue the 200 grain would not have fired perfect eight straight times.Also this relates to what I just said.He said head space is a CONSISTENT thing it does not varying and my friend agrees with this.The Gunsmith said the rifle was designed for ball or round nose ammunition.The Chamber/Head space is fine and the rifle is not going to blow up in my face.Also my friend mentioned this.Due to every so many feet of barrel that is made for a rifle,100 feet for example,it then gets cut off.So the lands and grooves in one rifle might start a little shallower or deeper down in the Barrel.I do not even know if the 150 grain psp was made back in 1968.Just to be safe unless I am convinced other wise I am going to have the head space checked.I do not even know if the new HORNADY 200 Grain ,35 rem. LEVERevolution ammuntion would fire due to it's pointed tip.What do you folks think is happening here ? Centerfire Leverman

[O.S.O.K.]

1) welcome to the board!
2) Reader's digest version: his 1968 Marlin 336 in 35 Rem doesn't ignite 150 grain Rem Corelocts reliably but does Remington 200 grain Corelocts. He's changed the hammer spring and checked everything else out - firinging pin, etc.

So, what else?

I don't know but somebody here will.

[arjunky]

Maybe for some reason Remington uses harder to ignite primers behind their 150 grain spirepoint load for lawyer purposes. Pretty good odds they don't want them going off in tube magazines.
Chad and I have shot a few of these in our 1953 year 336 without problems.

Byron

[Old Savage]

It is possible that the bullet provides some resistance short of the firing pin travel that causes a hard hit in the 200s that doesn't happen in the 150 in the 150s as only the shoulder is stopping the case travel in headspace. The shoulder in the chamber may not be restricting the 150s as much as happens in the 200s. I would put a 200 in the chamber and push it in with my fingers and note where it stops. I would then compare that in the same manner with the 150s using the chamber much as one of the cartridge headspace gauges available.

I am looking at a Remington factory 150 cartridge and a Remington factory 200 cartridge the 200 has a more definite shoulder than the 150 which appears more of a taper.

In my 35 Marlin the 150 chambers a few thousands deeper than the 200. The margin of the extractor groove is not visible on the 150 but is on the 200 it margin is slightly above the chamber with the barrel pointed down. The 150 slides a few thousands further into the chamber. In my rifle that appears to make no difference as both fire but a little more generous chamber might make a difference.

[Terry Murbach]

COULD YOU NOT AT LEAST HAVE SAID HELLO FIRST ??
WHY DO THEY COME HERE CARRYING ON ABOUT ALL THEIR PROBLEMS THE FIRST TIME AROUND AND EXPECT SOMEONE HERE TO BAIL 'EM OUT, FOR FREE NO LESS !!!!!!!!!!!!??

[arjunky]

COULD YOU NOT AT LEAST HAVE SAID HELLO FIRST ??
WHY DO THEY COME HERE CARRYING ON ABOUT ALL THEIR PROBLEMS THE FIRST TIME AROUND AND EXPECT SOMEONE HERE TO BAIL 'EM OUT, FOR FREE NO LESS !!!!!!!!!!!!??

He finally found the one and only "leverguns forum" Terry.
We could cut him a little slack, couldn't we

Byron

[Sixgun]

COULD YOU NOT AT LEAST HAVE SAID HELLO FIRST ??
WHY DO THEY COME HERE CARRYING ON ABOUT ALL THEIR PROBLEMS THE FIRST TIME AROUND AND EXPECT SOMEONE HERE TO BAIL 'EM OUT, FOR FREE NO LESS !!!!!!!!!!!!??

I have no reason why, but I like this guy (The story could have been condensed a bit, too)

Old Savage has it right---On another note,-Go buy yourself a hundred primers, knock out the fired ones with a punch, reseat the new ones and experiment-----experiment with fired cases and experiment with new cases with the bullet pulled out---Take your time, you will figure it out----a gun is mechanical and there's always a solution to the problem.------------------------Sixgun

[J Miller]

OK, lets get to the nitty gritty.

A: The 35 Remington is a rimless bottle necked cartridge that head spaces on the shoulder. The shape and weight of the bullet contained in the cartridge has NO bearing on the head spacing. And as long as this is factory loaded ammo, the bullets will not normally contact the rifling.

B: The hammer springs have been switched out how many times? I read it but I'm confused.

C: This is a 40 year old gun that has been torn down for a complete cleaning .... when?

D: The ammo in question was how old? Stored how?

That said, here is my suggestions:
1: Call Marlin and purchase a correct factory hammer spring for that rifle.

2: Take the rifle apart and clean it thoroughly. Including taking the bolt apart and cleaning out any debris, solidified oil or grease, or metal fragments from the firing pin channel.

3: Install the correct factory hammer spring. Lube it properly and reassemble.

4: Go purchase some NEW, FRESH, CORRECT ammo for the rifle and see what happens.

My bet is the R-P 150gr ammo was defective.

Oh Centerfire Leverman, even though you didn't say hello, welcome to the forum.


Joe

[Thunder50]

Try putting two layers of making tape on the case head of one of the 200rg rounds and see if the bolt will close--it shouldn't. It would probably close on one layer, but with a bit of difficulty. This should tell you if you headspace is off. Try this with the 150's also.
Did you try and re-cock the hammer and try and fire the rounds a second try? Also, try and see if you can get one of the rounds to fire if you rechamber the round, but orientated in a different manner. Check the base of the cartridge, looking at the primer and rotate the round to check and see if the primer pocket is centered.
The 150's might have been stored improperly and it has affected the primer compound.
Check to see if the hammer is hitting the scope, in its travel. It might slow down the strike enough to cause problems. Also, check the protrusion of the firing pin, maybe its just a few thousandths short and maybe Remington does use a thicker cup primer on their 150gr ammo vs. the 200gr stuff. Also, check the firing pin for any burrs on it, or dirt on it or its recess in the bolt..

[BenT]

I don't know but Hi means Hello where I'm from. But he could of started out by saying "I came here seeking great knowledge. "

Welcome to the fire ! Some days are hotter than others.

[jd45]

I wouldn't be a BIT surprised if the Rem 150 ammo might prove to be defective. I had that problem with my 1st Marlin 22RF rifle. I'd get misfires with the Rem stuff, but never a belch with Win. BTW, "belch" is a technical ammo-related term, for those of you in Rio Linda, as Rush says. Don't get me wrong...........I LOVE Rem rifles, but their ammo seems to leave a little to be desired, IMO. jd45

[Centerfire Leverman]

Sorry, I did not make an introduction.I am not asking nobody to bail me out.We have done thought about everything everyone of you mentioned except the masking tape test that was suggested.There all types of possibbilities we know that.By the way the firing pins have no burrs and the exact hammer spring to fit it was installed and I ordered it from MARLIN.I did not intend to bring some of you folks into an uproar.My suggestion is that if you cannot be polite like the site said when I first come here or the post agitates you a lot , and you have to ask all the has this been done.,etc,etc.If you cannot read then I am sorry about that.The best thing to do is just do not post.Does 8 straight shots with the 200 grain answer any questions about spring,dirty gun,burr on the hammer ? Why did the rifle never fire more than two straight shots in a row with the 150 grain ? How about head space is it not a consistent thing ? 8 shots in a row which all hit the primer correctly and deeply while no more than two of the others in a row fired.Also I did not try to refire the 150 grain.I do not have time to do this if I am hunting. Why did Hornady develop the new Flex tip ammo ? Download yourself a New Marlin 336 Manual and see what it says in reference to pointed tipped ammunition.Twice in Black reference comments are made and then 4 red WARNINGS are given.The AMMO is fresh out of expensive most well established sporting goods dealer.No it did not come from Wal-Mart as one man already asked either.A gunsmith with a many years experience told me yesterday just what I already thought,believed, and still believe.No two guns are exactly alike.When the barrels for the gun are being made they get cut off every so many feet.How does this affects the lands and grooves.The Gunsmith said head space is consistent.This gun was MADE to fire ball or round nose ammunition.I'll bet you a 100.00 bill that if I took the 150 grain rounds that did not fire and put them in Browning BLR or any other rifle which uses a Magazine every one of the 150 grains would fire.Folks the ones that did not fire were not indenting the primers enough.The 14 that did fire did.This tells me there is a consistency problem with the 150 grain Ammuntion having to do with the Cartridge.If head space was a problem the 200 grain bullets would not have fired 8 straight times.The head space like one of you said about the masking tape test is the problem.The recess of the primers on the 150 grain ammo was checked by a gunsmith.This is my opinion and that is all it is.The 200 grain are longer and are obviously fitting the rifle inside they are wider,made for the rifle.When the 150 goes into the chamber it is going down deeper because it is not contacting the lands and grooves due to it's taper.The 200 grain are all protruding a slight amount back further because they are contacting the inside of the barrel,head space,whatever.The result is the the 150 grain ammo is shifting ever so slightly.Factory ammo as one gunsmith told me does not always seat the bullet at the same depth.A 150 grain protruding bullet make it make contact sooner and it is recessed back a little where the hammer can strike it solid like the 14 rounds that fired did.The ones that did not fire were NOT hit hard enough and a few were just barely hit by the firing pin.Common sense tells me bullet seating in the factory ammo is not consistent.Finally there has to be some type of movement going on with the 150 grain cartridge.I have bought a lot of Ammunition off this sporting goods store.I had never had a Centerfire Remington Cartridge to not fire.I have the cheap .22 ammo I shot in my Ruger Mark II that sold for a bargain price for 500 of them.So I have told you my feelings.Exactly the way each of you did.Just out of curiosity I may have the head space checked.I'll bet you another 100.00 it is within specifications.More than likely the primers are fine on the 150 grain.I do not think they have aged.Regardless of anything and I was advised this from Sierra bullet company.Do not shoot any ammo in the lever guns that is pointed unless it is a Hornady Flex Tip.Winchester Supreme Silvertip.No do not use it she said.Delrin tips do not use if they are on a pointed bullet.This lady also made another excellent point.Due to primer recession just as an example even round nose bullets could be contacting the primers.I appreciate all of you peoples well intended help.You have taught me something things and maybe I have you also.If I have offended anybody I apologize.One thing is a fact and I intend to shoot the round nose a lot more.For WHATEVER reason the 200 grain cartridge is sitting back a few thousands.The hammer is striking them every time like it should.If headspace was a problem I think the 200 grain would have showed inconsistency to.If I comeback here let's not let it get to hot around hear.I suggest that we all use a little,tact,humility, and show respect for one another by not making derogatory comments,negative remarks,etc.Let all work together folks ! May God Bless all of you and Merry Christmas !

[Tycer]

It's not an uproar, it's a family.

Welcome.

[Sixgun]

Geeze, I think this cat does a lot of meth---talk--talk--talk. Sure gets defensive too

Take it easy dude--sometimes in life, you gotta put the "thick skin" on. We mean no harm--its just that we refuse to have any of that "touchy-feely" garbage the Liberals all want us to have. Here, we are REAL men --------------Sixgun

[Old Savage]

"When the 150 goes into the chamber it is going down deeper because it is not contacting the lands and grooves due to it's taper.The 200 grain are all protruding a slight amount back further because they are contacting the inside of the barrel,head space,whatever.The result is the the 150 grain ammo is shifting ever so slightly." - quote from Centerfire.

Let me reiterate for information focus only - on the 150s I have, the shoulders are a different shape than the 200s which have a more distinct shoulder. Let me add that the 150s when finger seated in the chamber to check how far they go in have to be bumped out. The 200s will fall back out by pointing the barrel into the air. While headspace is constant the case shape is not from 150 to 200.

If you ask a question here you will likely get a lot of different views.

Terry routinely jumps on new fellows at times. I don't think you did anything wrong and if you can't get some info here from the brotherhood of shooters ---- I think the owners intent is not being carried out. If you hand load some fired cases with some tapered bullet you will likely find the answer - I think it is the cases slightly different shape and the way that matches up with your rifle's dimensions that causes the problem. If you do this of course don't touch he shoulder with the die in sizing.

[O.S.O.K.]

After reading through this, I'm thinking it almost has to be the 150 grain loads. By the description of the primer strikes being erratic and mostly inadequate, I'm thinking it has to be improper headspace caused by the ammo being out of spec.

Bottom line, ditch any remaining ammo from that batch - or better, shoot them - recocking the hammer or whatever to get them to ignite. I'm too cheap to just throw ammo away.

It can't be the bullet weight. It can't be the rifle if its functioning fine with the other ammo.

That's the most likely answer here. IMHO

And Centerfire Leverman, there are all types of people here - just read around and you will see. The common thread is an interest in leveractions and not getting too offended by replies.

One thing that will help is if you condense your posts a bit - that's a lot of reading for most of us...

[jd45]

And Terry's an old curmedgeon, God Bless'im,........he's just trying to get you to follow the protocal, jd45
How about tellin us a little about yourself, huh?

[JerryB]

To my 70 year old eyes it almost looks like the first two words of his post says "Hi guys". By the way didn't Rusty have some bad Remington ammo a while back?

[Old Savage]

Protocol, he said Hi and stated his problem - what do we need, his shirt size for xmas. Where are the rules posted. Has anyone read the rules in tan above, way above.

I came here looking for the value of an old Savage. People were nice - nobody jumped me - that came later when I gave a reason I hadn't thought of for teaching kids to use iron sights.

You know - nobody gets jumped here anymore for using scopes - we need to do something about that - next thing you know we'll be drinking light beer and voting for democrats.

[Scott Young]

first break up your post some with paragraphs....please. i didn't even read them due to format. sorry.


i have had your problem it sounds like from what i have read out of the readers digest posts.

you have head spacing problems. you need to purchase a bolt block. i don't recall the technical name it think it is the engagement block....i dunno. over time it wears and doesn't push the bolt closed enough. it looks like a block with a slot in the bottom of it. it also pushes the firing pin toggle up and secures the bolt so it locks in place.

change it out and you will be ok.