One Powder Two Cartridges

[Idiot]

Due to recent events I've decided to focus my rifle reloading on two cartridges; the 30-30 Winchester and the .303 British. I want to use only one powder for both cartridges and will limit myself to only 150 grain bullets. Both will be loaded to full power factory equivalent levels and will use one primer type. Although I have reloaded for around 35 years I have limited experience loading these to cartridges.

I want to use only one powder for both cartridges. It must be easy to meter (I will likely use Lee's dipper for all of the powder measuring) and must be readily available. Any suggestions?

[Hobie]

Look at the books for loads using IMR 3031.

[Idiot]

Look at the books for loads using IMR 3031.

Does IMR 3031 meter better than IMR 4350? IMR 4350 meters poorly and it and IMR 3031 are extruded powders. If memory serves me right, IMR 3031 is the same shape, length, and width as IMR 4350. I could be wrong.

I went from IMR 4350 to Winchester 760 for my 30/06 loads because of metering considerations. Of course, I've not used IMR 3031 for quite some time, have they done something to improve its metering properties?

[J Miller]

Winchester 748 will work in both cartridges. Will provide normal factory equivalent loads with 150gr bullets, and most of all it will meter out of the Lee dippers very well.

Joe

[Idiot]

Winchester 748 will work in both cartridges. Will provide normal factory equivalent loads with 150gr bullets, and most of all it will meter out of the Lee dippers very well.

From a man who loads for both; thank you Joe.

I've still got to fix my Enfield magazine to ensure smooth loading, but I sure like to shoot the beast. Oh, and congrats on the new pistola.

[Modoc ED]

Idiot -

In case you're not familiar with it, here is a link that has a powder measuring technique using a dipper.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_no ... tes.htm/51

This is the method I use.

I will say that IMR-3031 meters just fine. I use it for my .30-30 handloads. I use a LEE Dipper to initially fill the pan and then a trickler to trickle in powder to get my exact weight.

[J Miller]

Winchester 748 will work in both cartridges. Will provide normal factory equivalent loads with 150gr bullets, and most of all it will meter out of the Lee dippers very well.

From a man who loads for both; thank you Joe.

I've still got to fix my Enfield magazine to ensure smooth loading, but I sure like to shoot the beast. Oh, and congrats on the new pistola.

Thanks for the congrats. I'm really having fun with it.

I started out reloading both the 30-30 and the 303 with the old hammer type Lee Loaders. So I tried many ways to use the dippers that came with them. I eventually bought a dipper set, pre metric ones, and used them. I couldn't get a consistent method of dipping so I tried the ball powders. Oh what a relief. Eventually I went to a powder measure and tried the extruded powders again. Not consistent by any means, so rather than weigh every powder charge I went back to the ball powders and never looked back.

Joe

[Hobie]

Look at the books for loads using IMR 3031.

Does IMR 3031 meter better than IMR 4350? IMR 4350 meters poorly and it and IMR 3031 are extruded powders. If memory serves me right, IMR 3031 is the same shape, length, and width as IMR 4350. I could be wrong.

I went from IMR 4350 to Winchester 760 for my 30/06 loads because of metering considerations. Of course, I've not used IMR 3031 for quite some time, have they done something to improve its metering properties?

Ummm, well I consider metering second to performance. I'm not a fan of 748 and ball powders in the .30-30 or .303 Brit. Yes, I tried them. Of course, my secondary point was that if you looked at a manual you'd have the answer. Just my point of view.

[Hobie]

Idiot -

In case you're not familiar with it, here is a link that has a powder measuring technique using a dipper.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_no ... tes.htm/51

This is the method I use.

I will say that IMR-3031 meters just fine. I use it for my .30-30 handloads. I use a LEE Dipper to initially fill the pan and then a trickler to trickle in powder to get my exact weight.

That's what I do Ed. Works a treat.

[Idiot]

Of course, my secondary point was that if you looked at a manual you'd have the answer.

Thanks Hobie and Modoc ED.

Now, anyone can read a manual, but where's the fun in that? I wanted to talk about it. (I guess we can limit our discussion to Washington politics instead ) Besides, most of my manuals are a little dated and with the introduction of so many new powders I thought there might be some new wonder powder out there that did it all and did it well.

Hobie, in which way did W748 perform inferior to IMR3031? I don't intend to sacrifice real and practical performance, however I will sacrifice a few FPS maximum velocity deviation and a half inch in accuracy. That's the reason I asked for recommendations. Please, if you would sir, expound upon the performance differences.

BTW, I intend to use the Lee dipper in the following manner: dip backwards into a deep pile of powder contained withing a jar, then lift the full dipper above the powder mound and scrape the edge of a business card across the top of the dipper to level the powder charge, and then pour the powder directly into the case. A scale will only become involved to verify the dipper's charge does not exceed the recommended powder charge. OR, I will use a powder measure to charge the cases.

[Slick13]

Looking at Hodgdon's reload data for the .303 British, the available powders for the 150 gr bullet are:

Varget
IMR 4064
BL-C(2)
IMR 4895
H335
H4895
IMR 3031

All these powders have recipes for the .30-30, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about any of them in the .30-30. I have no experience with the .303 British, but if it were me I'd start with BL-C(2). I know it works well in my .30-30, it's a ball powder so you know it meters well, and I've found I can get higher velocities with at lower pressures compared to other powders. If BL-C(2) didn't work, I'd try Varget or H4895 next.

~Michael

[Slick13]

Look at the books for loads using IMR 3031.

Does IMR 3031 meter better than IMR 4350?

I don't know about IMR 4350, but H4350 HAS to meter better than 3031 does. 3031 is a long extruded kernel, and I wouldn't bother trying to put it through a powder measure. The few times I've used it, I trickle it onto a scale, then dump it into the cartridge.

~Michael

[Hobie]

In reloading the .303 British for my rifles I attempt to duplicate factory ball. That's what the sights are set up for and I do not want to mess with the sights. If I need MORE gun I get more gun. That's 174 gr. @ 2400 fps. In creating lads that do so with minimum pressure and heat I'll lengthen the service life of my rifle(s). In that use it seems to me that no ball powder beat IMR 4350 for that use. It gets the required velocity at relatively low pressure and seems to produce less heat in that the barrel doesn't heat up as quickly as with ball powders. Powders I've tried are W748, W760, BL(C)2, and H335.

I have tried 150 gr. bullets and the fastest load in friend Mike's No. 4 used IMR 4320 under the Hornady 150 gr. for about 2700 fps. That was accurate and Mike used it at least once to head shoot a doe at a measured (and witnessed) 140 yards using issue stamped version sights. What, if anything, he did to his sights I don't know.

IMR 3031 was so named because it was 303 powder #1. Of the powders acceptable to me it is the only one I would use in both the .303 British and .30 WCF (.30-30).

The bullets I now use for the .303 British are either the 174 gr. Matchking or the Sierra 180 gr. SPT .

[J Miller]

Hobie,

Do you know if the IMR powders (IMR 3031 and IMR 4350 specifically ) are single or double based ?
I'm fairly positive the Winchester ball powders are a double based powder. I'm following another discussion over at Handloads about the difference between the two in hand gun use.

I don't normally load the lighter 150gr bullets in my 303. Like you I use either the 174gr or 180 gr loaded to ball specs. Most of the 303's I've loaded in recent years has been with Win 760. I get very good accuracy with the charge I use and the Sierra 180gr soft point.
As for the heat generated by the various powders I've not paid all that much attention. When shooting in Arizona, ALL the powders get the rifles so hot you'll get oil soaking out of the wood if you shoot much at all. I generally don't shoot that much, but it has happened.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

I've only shot a 303 once, but have shot a buuunch of 30-30's. So if 748 or rl 15 would work good in the 303, that'ld be fantastic, because those two powders are the ones to beat in the 30-30 and a handfull of other cartridges IMHO.
Lots of luck with the one powder for all deal, but I just don't think it's really worth the effort, much simpler to keep each cartridges powder on hand, again IMHO.

[Idiot]

Gentlemen, thanks for the responses; it is all valuable information.

Hobie, thanks for the detail.

I just want to get a good stock of ammo without much fuss or variation; keeping to one powder helps accomplish that. I'll likely load using Speer bullets to keep the cost down and because these are pretty good simple cup and core bullets that work for most applications. I initially wanted to buy Remington or Winchester bulk bullets for the 30-30, but the place they used to occupy on the shelf is now empty at most of the places I frequent (Midway, Grafs, etc.).

[Old Ironsights]

That's why I started buying 2400.

It seems to work reasonably well in all 5 of the cartridges I load regularly:

.38/.357, 9.3x72R, .45-70, .410. I

[Kansas Ed]

IMR 30301 is Single based, as are all of the IMR series powders through 4320...though they don't specifically call out IMR 4350 as Single based, it would probably be safe to assume that it follows the same format. It's too bad that Hodgdon didn't keep up the IMR web page when they took over...but I cant say I expected anything different....

Ed

[CowboyTutt]

Good reading, fellas, and timely too! I just purchased a good speciman of a #4 Mark 1 made by Savage-Stevens in 1942 as part of the lend lease program this last Saturday at our local gunshow. It is complete with bayonet, bayonet cover and slings and covered in cosmoline. It will be a bit of a chore to clean-up, but a neat rifle. I even found a box of ammo milled in 1940 to complete the package. I will not be able to bring it home for 10 days but will post pics when I do, or perhaps after I clean it up instead.

Regarding the topic, I'm with Don and Hobie on this one and I can't imagine picking one powder for so many different applications. Just not fun for me! However, I will be using the same bullets that Hobie does and Varget and a CCI BR-2 primer. This combo has worked well for me in my 358 Win. It is also the bold highlighted "most accurate" load in my Lyman 48th for the 303. The primer would probably work very well for you Idiot, but the powder would not meter as well as I think you want. I will defer to Hobie and Modoc Ed on the secret methods of the dipper!

-Tutt

[Idiot]

CowboyTutt, you'll have nothing but fun with that old 303 Brit; I sure like mine. Its just fun to shoot something that looks and feels like a drain pipe hammered to a skid and still puts 'em where you point 'em. 10 days to wait, yuk.

[Old Savage]

I guess now I have to get one of these.

[Old Savage]

Tutt in the cosmoline - was it "new"?

[Hobie]

Hobie,

Do you know if the IMR powders (IMR 3031 and IMR 4350 specifically ) are single or double based ?
I'm fairly positive the Winchester ball powders are a double based powder. I'm following another discussion over at Handloads about the difference between the two in hand gun use.

I don't normally load the lighter 150gr bullets in my 303. Like you I use either the 174gr or 180 gr loaded to ball specs. Most of the 303's I've loaded in recent years has been with Win 760. I get very good accuracy with the charge I use and the Sierra 180gr soft point.
As for the heat generated by the various powders I've not paid all that much attention. When shooting in Arizona, ALL the powders get the rifles so hot you'll get oil soaking out of the wood if you shoot much at all. I generally don't shoot that much, but it has happened.

Joe

Yeah, nothing like melting 100 year old oil out of a gun stock! When it starts smoking you do get some looks, too!

I can't find a reference that tells me whether they are double or single base so that I can respond with any certainty (and my memory isn't up to that this morning).

[Hobie]

CowboyTutt, you'll have nothing but fun with that old 303 Brit; I sure like mine. Its just fun to shoot something that looks and feels like a drain pipe hammered to a skid and still puts 'em where you point 'em. 10 days to wait, yuk.

I think the No. 4 is a svelte woman. Compared to other military guns, she's a real babe.

[Old Time Hunter]

H4895...you do not have to worry about temperature extremes and it works in almost any necked cartridges.

[CowboyTutt]

OS, the person who sold it to me said it could be unfired. There is simply no way to know. I won't kid you OS they do have some kick with the steel butt plate so you may want to fire one first. Its not the gentle giant Old 3120 is.

I agree with Hobie that the #4 variant does look pretty good! They had a lighter/stronger action but a heavier barrel that cleared the forestock. Less "pug-nosed" and more svelte indeed! Nice grooves in the top of the forestock for better grip and they moved the rear sight to the back of the receiver as God intended. Lastly, they stamped "U.S. Property" on the Savage models. Here's a pic of one.



The iron sights do work well on them and apparently (at least in Hotchkiss, CO) they are capable of shooting 1538 yards as my friend Tym did with his at the last Friends of Billy Dixon event:





-Tutt

[Kansas Ed]

IMO, the #4 had the smoothest action of any rifle I have ever spent quality time with. My dad still has a #4 Canadian Long Branch that we take out every few years. As a kid I used to fill gallon paint cans full of water and shoot them at the back of the garden...lots of fun. Ahhh the memories of #4's...

I have a .303 Brit, but it's in a '95...I often thought of reboring one of the #4's to .35 WCF or rebarreling to .405.

Ed

[CowboyTutt]

Ed, the Canadian Long Branch is the sister to my Savage-Stevens rifle. I hope the action on mine is as smooth as yours. They are apparently capable rifles based upon what I have seen. Thanks for sharing!

-Tutt

[Hobie]

I have a Fazerkly and a Long Branch. The Long Branch is sort of the pudgy sister who could kick your butt. I don't think the butt plates are bad at all. The rifles weigh so much recoil is pretty negligible.