OT, S&W 60

[Paul Jenkins]

Gentlrmen,
I just bought a S&W mod. 60 ,No dash , no pin in the barrel. Almost new. I know the pinned barrel is to keep it from turning,
But, was that a problem? Are the pinned barrels better?

[Grizz]

Gentlrmen,
I just bought a S&W mod. 60 ,No dash , no pin in the barrel. Almost new. I know the pinned barrel is to keep it from turning,
But, was that a problem? Are the pinned barrels better?

oh yeah. suggest you send it to me. I am qualified to operate the unpinned barrel. nothing worse than having the barrel spin off when you need it most.

[Hobie]

They changed it slightly but you done good. Those are good little revolvers. I'm a J-frame fan.

[Rusty]

Yep, nothing makes you feel warm all over like a "J" frame in your hip pocket.

[Doc Hudson]

Well, it ain't a Bodyguard, or a Centennial, but there are no flies on the Model 60.

If you can't have a Bodyguard or Centennial, a Model 60 is a fair alternative.

[Andrew]

Gentlrmen,
I just bought a S&W....

Well, I guess someone has to. Better you than me....

[Jaguarundi]

The non-pinned barrels are installed with 200 tons torque according to my S&W armorer instructor in 1988(the barrel is not easily removed-don't worry about it flying off).Be adviced that your 60 non dash shouldn't be shot with +p loads,timing issues and frame stretch not if but how soon(again from the armorers mouth-all period production and earlier J frames not rated for +p-only later on in the late 90's were J's redesigned for +p).Nice gun I have a early ladysmith version in stainless.

[specops]

I got rid of my last M60. The only load it would shoot to POA was Winchester 158 HPLSWC +P and that is something you definitely want to check if you are going to carry it. Everything else I tried landed 2"+ away. My Model 36 with 3" barrel and adjustable sights doesn't seem to have the same problem so I suspect it was just that particular gun. Have a Taurus 605 that shoots Remington 125 gr .357s and Federal HydroShock .38 +Ps to the same POA at 15 yards. Dehorned the hammer and put in a Wolf spring kit. Snuggled in a Uncle Mikes pocket holster and resting in a left front pocket, it gives you a warm fuzzy. Next step will be to remove the front sight and dovetail in a XS Big Dot.

[Tycer]

I too am a J-frame fan. I HIGHLY recommend the Crimson Trace Laser Grips! 50 yard fist sized groups are the norm with both my personal defense loads and my wadcutter practice ammo. Note: 98% of my practice is 7 yards.

Be adviced that your 60 non dash shouldn't be shot with +p loads,timing issues and frame stretch not if but how soon(again from the armorers mouth-all period production and earlier J frames not rated for +p-only later on in the late 90's were J's redesigned for +p).Nice gun I have a early ladysmith version in stainless.

I disagree somewhat. Todays +P loads are not what yesterdays standard loads were. YES if you feed a J-frame a steady diet of hot loads it will develop endplay and timing issues. NO it will not happen with enough COR-BON to sight in and stop bad guys. I shoot one cylinder of personal defense occasionally to make sure the sights are still on (they have not moved yet), and feed it wadcutters the rest of the time. Nancy's is a 60, Mine is an old, pitted 36 flat-latch.

This is a post by SaxonPig off the Smith-Wessonforums a while back. I like it. Take it for what it is - internet - and do as you like.

Member Posted 01 February 2007 04:51 PM Hide Post
You know the old hands around here cringe when they see the +P in the subject line
because they know what's coming.
A Model 15 will shoot as much factory +P as you care to feed it. Factory +P is loaded
below industry standards for the caliber and in a quality gun like a K frame S&W +P
ammo poses zero potential for damage or excessive wear.
Sorry, I have to do it, now. Here is my official response to the +P question. This is an
ongoing research project that gets updated from time to time as new information is
added.
--------------------------------------------
I was a little surprised when I began visiting these Internet forums and saw so many
questions regarding +P .38 Special ammo. It seems each new day brings yet another
post asking about the safety of using factory +P ammo in one gun or another. I
always assumed the short answer was that if you had a Star, or Ruby, or some other
gun that might be questionable as far as strength is concerned, then stay away from
+Ps. But many shooters seem concerned about using this ammo in quality guns of
recent manufacture* and I didn’t expect that. I saw many inquiries about K frame
S&Ws using +P and I found it odd that anyone would worry about using factory +P
ammo in such a gun. Then I started seeing postings from owners of .357 Magnum
revolvers asking if +P .38 Special ammo would harm their guns. One forum member
was concerned that +Ps would damage his Model 28 S&W.
Come again? I don’t know what caused such a mystique to surround +P ammo to
make people with N frame Magnums think it’s too much for their guns, but it strikes
me as overblown all out of proportion. The fact is that +P isn’t “all that” anyway.
Winchester, Federal and Remington list the velocity of the 125 grain +P at around 925
FPS. These velocities are actually fairly mild. I have shot many rounds of Remington
125 grain +Ps in a 1942 S&W Military & Police revolver and I can literally shake the
fired cases from the gun without using the extractor. In my opinion these loads are
actually pretty mild and show no sign of even moderate pressure in any of my guns.
As underpowered as I thought the Remington ammo was the PMC proved worse. I
clocked a box of the El Dorado 125 JHP +Ps and from a 4" barrel I got a pathetic 890
FPS. Fired from a 2" M&P (made in 1949, BTW) this ammo ran 795 FPS. How can
such puny loads cause so much hysteria among shooters? I also tried some
Winchester 110 grain +P+ "Law Enforcement Only" ammo. I was expecting around
1300 FPS but all I got was 1100. Big deal! This load was very mild and easy to shoot
through the 2" gun and I fail to see the reason for the fear of +P (or +P+ for that
matter) that so many shooters express.
Why is everyone so terrified of +P? I believe that the reason +P exists is twofold.
First, it is a marketing ploy used to sell ammo by misrepresenting it as powerful. But
any perception that this ammo is powerful is a myth. Second, it gives the ammo
companies legal cover should anyone blow up their inexpensive gun because they can
say "We warned you not to use +P ammo!" Of course, +P is nothing more than what
standard pressure ammo used to be and they created the +P moniker to protect
themselves.
The factory ammo made back in the 1970s and earlier was hotter than that made
today (see chart #1). I have seen the specifications for standard .38 Special
ammunitions from a 1940 catalog listing the velocity as 960 FPS with a 158 grain
bullet. This load would clearly develop higher chamber pressure than the current +P
load and yet it was used for decades in all models from Colt and S&W without
incident. The current +P is really about what the .38 Special should be in standard
form. But note that today's standard load is no longer what it once was, either. In
1940 it was the 158/960 that was considered standard. During most of my youth I
recall the load as advertised at 158/870. I have a copy of the specifications for
S&W/Fiocchi ammo that was packaged with new guns that appears to have been
printed in 1970. It lists the 158 lead .38 Special load at 910 FPS. It also includes a
158 JHP at 1140 FPS (equaling the mighty 38/44 load), a 125 JHP at 1380 FPS and a
110 at 1390 FPS**. I have seen a ‘70s box of SuperVel .38s with the package labeled
as containing a 158@955 load. This was the standard load in the early 1970s
(although I didn’t recall SuperVel offering standard velocity ammo). Note that none of
these loads were marked as +P, but were considered standard pressure and the ad
bears no mention of not using this ammo in older guns or revolvers with alloy frames.
These loads are probably similar to those +P loads offered by the specialty ammo
makers like Bear Claw, Cor-Bon and others that exceed the levels achieved by the
mainstream ammo company loads. Bear in mind that this was ammo bearing the S&W
name and sold through their dealer network for use in their guns. They are now
advising against using the rather meek current +P for their revolvers when they used
to advertise and sell ammo that was much hotter. Compare these velocities to those
offered today and tell me they haven't reduced the loads! Current specifications on
the lead 158 are pretty wimpy at 158/750. Again, we see the ammo companies
reducing the loads over the years. The current +P (which means +Pressure if you
didn’t know) is really only +P when compared to current standard loads. Stacked up
against past standard loads the +P looks pretty anemic and the current standard load
is truly pathetic.
The fact is that +P is only called +P in comparison to the current standard .38 Special
loading, not because it exceeds the pressure limits set for the caliber. I believe the
SAAMI pressure limit for the .38 Special is 21,500 PSI (the .357 Magnum is 35,000
for comparison). The standard load for the .38 Special as offered by Winchester, et al,
generates 16,500 PSI. This is so far below the maximum allowable as to be ridiculous
but the ammo makers fear lawsuits from people using the ammo in cheap guns. The
+Ps from these manufacturers run about 18,000 PSI. This is more than the standard
loadings (hence the +P designation) but is still far below the maximum allowable
pressure. Those "really hot +P loads" from the specialty manufacturers like Cor-Bon,
etc., are simply loaded to the caliber's full potential of 21,500 PSI and should be
perfectly safe in any quality arm in good condition. Sellier & Bellot sells a 158@975
load that is obviously more powerful (and therefore generates more chamber
pressure) than the 125@925 +P yet this ammo isn’t labeled as +P. It’s likely simply
loaded near the 21,500 PSI maximum allowed for the caliber and this company
eschews the ridiculous +P label on ammo that is within industry standards.
So why are we seeing these less powerful loadings? Because there are some guns out
there that are not well made. Because of liability concerns the ammo makers must
load their products to pressures that are safe in these lower quality guns. They mark
the "high pressure" loads as +P (even though as I noted they really aren't high
pressure) to give them legal cover should someone hurt himself shooting this ammo
in a cheap Spanish S&W knock-off of dubious quality.
S&W ran advertisements in the 1930s and 1940s specifically stating that the .38/44
load, which pushed a 158 grain bullet at an advertised 1125 FPS making it far more
powerful than the current +P load, could be used in the K frame revolver. Colt ran
similar ads for using this ammo in the Detective Special. If these 1930s-era medium
frame revolvers could handle the 158/1125 Heavy Duty loads, why should anyone
worry about the same guns shooting the current 125/975 loads labeled as +P? One
former police officer told me that between 1958 and 1960 he fired 2,000 rounds of
factory 38/44 ammo through his duty Model 10 without any effect to the gun. If all
that shooting with the 158/1125 load didn't harm his K frame I don't see how the
125/925 +P can hope to do damage.
Lee Jurras started Super Vel in the 1960s. This was maybe the first of the specialty
ammo companies and he offered truly high performance .38 Special loads. I have
some of the 110 grain loads and they clock around 1300 FPS. Based on this I would
guess his 125 loads would go around 1200 or so. This would be a true +P load but it’s
still lighter than the old .38/44 load. I don’t recall seeing or hearing of guns being
damaged by this ammo.
Check out a reloading manual from the early '70s. The Speer #8 from 1970 has a
load listed for the .38 Special pushing a 158 JHP to 1,250 FPS, one for the 125 grain
bullet at 1426 FPS and one for the 110 grain bullet at 1536 FPS! A 1971 Sierra
manual shows a load for the 125 grain .38 Special at 1250 FPS. Sort of makes that
factory +P at 925 seem less intimidating, doesn't it? Now, of course, new manuals
don't include listings that are this hot. Now they stop at about the same levels as the
factory +P. Why? Lawyers and lawsuits are the reasons why. The reloading manual
publishers are just as scared as the gun and ammo makers about being sued. Fear of
lawsuits is the same reason the gun makers caution against the use of +P ammo.
They also say don’t use reloads. They have to say this on advice of counsel to protect
themselves.
I load 125s at 1,100 FPS in my .38 Special carry guns. This load came from the 1970
Speer manual and is not the top load listed. I have shot many rounds of it through
both K and J frame guns and they seem to work just fine. Recoil is slightly more
pronounced than with standard ammo, but the cases fall from the cylinder with no
sticking and I see no signs of excessive pressure. Just for fun I once put 6 rounds of
this ammo through an old small-frame Rossi revolver. Nothing bad happened
although I wouldn’t advise using this ammo in such a pistol. I once loaded some 110
JHPs to a clocked 1400 FPS from a 4" Model 10. These were hot, let me tell you, and
I backed off. But the gun showed no immediate effect from having fired a small
amount of this ammo.
Ask yourself this question: Would any ammo maker in today's litigious environment
sell any ammunition that would be unsafe or harmful to use in the typical gun that a
consumer may own? If factory +P were really hazardous would Winchester, or
Federal, or Cor-Bon sell it to the general public?
With all the many, many questions regarding the safety of +P ammo, there must be
many reports of blown-up guns, right? How many guns blown-up by factory +P
ammo have you seen? How many guns blown-up by factory +P ammo have you
heard about? I have been participating in the shooting sports and studying firearms
since 1967 and I know of absolutely NONE. I have heard second and third hand
accounts of one or two guns that were said to have been damaged by factory ammo
but I think it more likely these guns suffered failure due to some manufacturing
defect. It happens. I have a S&W .357 Magnum that was returned to the factory for a
new frame. Something went wrong with it.
Certainly, using a gun causes wear. A gun is a machine and using any machine will
cause it to wear. Using hotter ammo will likely accelerate the process to some degree.
But a quality gun from S&W or Colt or Ruger will not blow up with +Ps. Nor will it
excessively stretch the frame or split the barrel in my opinion. It will possibly wear a
little faster, and I doubt if anyone could predict how much, but I think the added wear
on a good gun will not be all that much. The gun would probably still last longer than
the man who owns it.
I admit to some paranoia about warm loads in an alloy-framed gun. I do not have any
alloy revolvers but if I did I would stick to standard ammo even though it seems
obvious from my research that current factory +P is actually weaker than the original
standard .38 Special load. In a steel gun of good quality I have no concerns at all
about +P on a regular basis since I consider factory +P to be nothing more than
standard pressure (or less), anyway. Also, in 1955 Elmer Keith wrote of shooting the
38/44 load through the alloy J frame guns and he said that it did them no harm but
recoil was pretty fierce. Keith favored big guns with heavy recoil so such a comment
coming from him is quite meaningful. So maybe my own reluctance to use +P in alloy
guns is misplaced. Perhaps I have also fallen victim to the hype?
This is just my opinion based on personal experience and research. There are differing
points of view. Some replies to the +P question are quite adamant about avoiding
regular use of this ammo. Others advise occasional use. Some say only carry +P for
defense but don’t use it for practice at all. Some say S&W guns with model markings
are OK with +P*** (what about the Colts?) while others say only use it in guns
specifically approved by the factory. The fact that there are so many answers to this
question tells me that there is great confusion on this matter. I’m a simple man and I
take a simple course to the truth. I do basic research and try to find the facts. I have
presented the facts as I see them. All one must do to find the truth about current
factory +P ammo is look at the specifications. I submit that a 125/975 load is hardly
high performance, and certainly nothing to cause concern for owners of quality
revolvers. All are free to disagree.
Some forum members have accused me of being irresponsible in recommending the
loads I mentioned. Of course, I am not recommending anything, only stating what I
do. Also, all of the loads I use came from reputable reloading manuals. If the loads
were safe in 1970 I don’t see why they aren’t safe now, but I don’t recommend
anything to anyone. Each of us has to make our own choice. If you think any of the
loads I mentioned are too hot then avoid them. If you are in any way uncomfortable
with +Ps then stick with standard loads.
Notes:
* The manufacture and tempering of steel was imprecise before around 1930 or so.
Any of my guns made before this date get reduced loads just to be on the safe side.
Note that early S&Ws, those made before around 1918, had cylinders that were not
tempered at all. A similar situation likely is true with Colt revolvers but I have no
specific knowledge of when Colt began tempering their cylinders.
** This same document advertises a 125 JHP .357 Magnum load at 1775 FPS. Current
factory ammo in this caliber with this bullet usually clock around 1250-1300 FPS.
Apparently the Magnums have also been "downsized."
*** I never understood using the "model marking" on S&W revolvers as the cut-off
for +P. As far as I can tell the last S&W made without the model number stamped on
it was exactly the same as the first revolver to have the model number stamped on it.
They didn't improve the steel or strengthen the guns in any way. All they did was
start stamping the model numbers.
PS:
This same situation that has affected the .38 Special occurs with the .38 Super. The
original loading for the Super was a 130 FMJ at nearly 1,300 FPS. But the Super
cartridge is the same physical size as the old .38 ACP, just loaded to higher pressures
so the ammo makers started fretting over some yahoo stuffing Supers into his 1905
Colt in .38 ACP and spreading parts all over the range. That’s why Super cases were
nickel and the .38 ACP were brass until a few years ago, so shooters could instantly
recognize which ammo they had. I was curious a few years ago when I noticed that
they stopped doing this and I saw Super ammo in regular brass cases. I guess there’s
no need any longer since factory Super ammo now clocks about the same as .38 ACP.
The last box I checked ran 1,120 FPS, only 40 more than the ACP. They have down-
loaded the Super to nearly the same level as the ACP. No lawsuits. Of course, the
Super isn’t so… super… any longer, is it?
Some people claim that the standard .38 Special load today is the same as 30-50
years ago and the only difference is the claimed velocities in the past were greatly
exaggerated by the test barrels they used. Everyone back then knew real-world
velocity would be a little lower but not as much as some would have us think. Below
are some actual measured velocities of various vintage ammo.
Chart #1:
Some .38 Special velocities actually measured (not claimed by the manufacturer)
from a 4" Colt Official Police:
Remington 158 grain lead made in the late 1960s-early 70s...840 fps
Peters 158 grain lead made in the 1950s...800 fps
Western Super-X 158 grain lead made in the mid-late1960s...810 fps
Western 150 grain metal-piercing made in the mid-late 1960s...1000 fps
Remington 158 grain lead "Hi-Speed" made in the 1950s...920 fps
The 158 loads from the 1950s-1970s are clearly more potent than the current
offerings that achieve a claimed 730-755 FPS velocity. The observed 800-840 FPS is
consistent with the manufacturer claims at the time of 870-910 FPS since they used a
6" "pressure barrel" to achieve the claimed velocities and actual velocities from 4"
revolvers ran somewhat lower. But clearly not the huge difference some people claim
in their assertions that factory .38 Special ammo has not been reduced in power.
Also, bear in mind that the ammo being tested was all 30-50 years old and may have
exhibited some deterioration in the powder which may have caused lower velocities
than the ammo developed when new.
The bottom line:
Each man must do what he thinks is best. After a great deal of research and testing I
do not consider factory +P ammo to be very warm at all and it concerns me not one
bit in a quality revolver.
PS: Below is a photo of my 1942 M&P (along with some of the ammo) that has to
date digested about 500 rounds of Remington factory +P ammo and a similar amount
of my hand loads that are much stouter, launching a 125 JHP at around 1,150 FPS.
The gun was, of course, well used before I bought it five years ago and has fired an
unknown, but likely substantial quantity of ammunition prior to this test starting. So
far the gun shows zero effect from shooting the +P ammo or the hand loads. I chose
this gun because some people say only model marked guns will withstand +P and
others say post-WW II guns are OK. I ditched both notions with this selection. I fully
expect that the gun will shoot many thousands of rounds without complaint.

[Hobie]

I've shot nothing BUT +P in my 36-1 3". I carry +P in my 642 & 36. 5 rounds will not peel apart a steel frame gun. Terry was telling me about a friend who shot a Colt Cobra apart with +P ammo but that is a whole different animal.

[kimwcook]

I agree that the ammo beiing produced today is nothing as it was in years past. I have a S&W 639, Bodyguard, that's a 357, and I had to qualify with it as my second. We have to purchase our own ammo for any second or thirds we're going to carry. I bought a box of Remington's and let me tell you, it was like laying your hand on an anvil and getting smacked with a 2 lb. hammer. My reactive flinch went up a notch considerably.

[Idahoser]

FYI, you don't have a no-dash if the barrel isn't pinned. You have a later dash-something but the dash isn't marked. They did that, yes.

A real no-dash would have the pin.

I'm trying to find a reference for this on the smith-wessonforum.com site for you.

Here's one for starters but he doesn't provide a reference, though I have seen more definitive info. Still looking.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums ... 2591063813
Okay here's another one, that says maybe I'm wrong.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums ... 8471099672

This is old, but still useful and it should cover the gun in question
http://www.handloads.com/misc/Smith.Model.Changes.asp

[Paul Jenkins]

Gentlemen,
Thank you for your opinions and resourses.I am confident that the few rds. I will shoot in it , it will hold up fine. I will only shoot it enough with 125 Gr, 1000 fps loads to learn where it prints. Thanks for your input.

[marlinman93]

I've carried, shot, and enjoyed my S&W Model 60 (pinned version) for over 30 years, and it was a used gun when I got it! It is the finest carry gun I've ever owned. I've tried a few others over the years, but keep going back to the old 60.
I shoot mine exclusively with SWC 148 gr. cast, but carry with 125 HP for defense work.