Newb needs help with Pre 64 '94

[Old Coastie]

Howdy. I recently came into a '94 manufactured in 1962. Not being a Winchester afficianado I found this place and am hoping someone can send me in the correct direction.

My problem is that while cosmetically in good shape this rifle is loose as a goose. With the action locked the finger lever moves independent of the link and the link moves in the frame. This caused the top of the finger lever to be groved by the movement between it and the trigger stop pin (Not sure if that is the correct name. Just behind the trigger in the lower tang.). I also read somewhere that pre 64's had link screws. Mine has a link pin. In fact the link looks exactly like the one in my 94AE, which by the way is nice and tight.

Is there some way I can tell if my pre 64 is just plain worn out or if some Bubba (no offence intended) gunsmith has messed with it. If it is just worn, do I have any options. My local guy said he can do nothing with it after a 15 second inspection.

I anxiously await your expert guidance.

Good shooting.

[deerwhacker444]

Welcome

Someone with more knowledge about 94's than I will be along shortly.

[J Miller]

Old Coastie,

Here is a link to my thread on how to tell the difference between a Pre and Post 64 Win 94:

http://onesticky.levergunscommunity.com ... sters.html

The Pre-64s do indeed have a screw in the link. Since yours has a pin, either someone has swapped parts from a later gun, or you have an early Post-64. Sounds like it's been bubba'd or some of the parts are worn badly or missing. I'd love to see some pics of it.

A serial number, or partial one like this: 1234XX would help to tell it's age.

Joe

[kimwcook]

I'm not the help you need, but I've got to think your '94 can be easily salvaged.

There's a lot more knowledge here than I've got. Someone will be along soon.

[20cows]

Some pictures would help to see exactly what you mean.

94s have always had a little slack where you mention. It's no problem as long as the bolt locks up tight and the headspace is right.

Oh, BTW, I'm one of those bubbas that puts parts together in new combinations.
(No offense meant or taken )





Lot'sa possibilities.

[mescalero1]

How would you like to there the next time he gets pulled over by a cop
officer " what is your name sir? "
" Bubba 20 cows "

[20cows]

" Bubba 20 cows "

[mescalero1]

That's what I thought

[Old Coastie]

Old Coastie,

Here is a link to my thread on how to tell the difference between a Pre and Post 64 Win 94:

http://onesticky.levergunscommunity.com ... sters.html

The Pre-64s do indeed have a screw in the link. Since yours has a pin, either someone has swapped parts from a later gun, or you have an early Post-64. Sounds like it's been bubba'd or some of the parts are worn badly or missing. I'd love to see some pics of it.

A serial number, or partial one like this: 1234XX would help to tell it's age.

Joe

Joe, my serial nr. is 2,504,xxx so it is a late pre '64. I followed your links and noticed that my rifle is D&T'd on the left side while yours is not. Was that standard in '62? The only other thing I noticed while looking at the pictures is a subtle difference between your pre '64 link and mine. At the forward end of your link the sides look exactly parallel. Mine appear to have a very slight taper until they reach the shoulder. It may be an optical illusion or poor machining. The rear shoulders on my link are not lots wider than the width where the finger lever passes through the link. If those rear shoulders were just a little wider most of the slop would be removed I think.

I will try to get some pictures tomorrow.

One more question. Just behind the trigger on the lower tang are the letters DB. Do they have any meaning?

Thanks to everyone for the help so far. This is a learning experience to me. These Winchesters have way more moving parts than any of my Marlins.

Good shooting.

[J Miller]

Old Coastie,

The Pre 64 I used in this pictorial is a 1950 vintage. Winchester didn't start drilling and tapping them for side mount receiver sights until about 1953. This continued until USRAC took over and altered the receiver to the AE design.

I'm not picturing you're link description in my mind. All the links were basically the same at the front end and rear end. However there were variations in general appearance. The Pre-64 ones were machined and the later ones were a cast part with finish machining. The basic differences was the change to the through screw at the front, and change to the pin for the lever.

The "DB" on the lower tang is a proof mark or an assemblers mark. They were eliminated on the Post-64s.

You're pictures will tell us more. Looking forward to seeing them.

Joe

[Old Coastie]

I will do my best to get you pictures. My camera does not do closeups well or maybe I just can't get it to work correctly.

Something else I noticed after my last reply. Based on your pictures my rifle has the short cartridge guides. Yours end near the end of the carrier. My guides end near the rear of the cutout at the front of the carrier. I wonder what else I will find as the investigation continues.

Good shooting.

[Griff]

Howdy. I recently came into a '94 manufactured in 1962. Not being a Winchester afficianado I found this place and am hoping someone can send me in the correct direction.
My problem is that while cosmetically in good shape this rifle is loose as a goose. With the action locked the finger lever moves independent of the link and the link moves in the frame. This caused the top of the finger lever to be groved by the movement between it and the trigger stop pin (Not sure if that is the correct name. Just behind the trigger in the lower tang.). I also read somewhere that pre 64's had link screws. Mine has a link pin. In fact the link looks exactly like the one in my 94AE, which by the way is nice and tight.
Is there some way I can tell if my pre 64 is just plain worn out or if some Bubba (no offence intended) gunsmith has messed with it. If it is just worn, do I have any options. My local guy said he can do nothing with it after a 15 second inspection.
I anxiously await your expert guidance.
Good shooting.

Pre-64 Mdl 94s had link pins, held in place by a screw thru the bottom of the link. The post -64 did away with this, using a thru screw in place of the pin. Then in late AE production, the link pin came back, along with the retaining screw from the bottom of the link. I was miffed, as Winchester no longer carried the correct link to repair on of my older post-64s. There are ways to tighten up the link and the lever in an older gun. Most involve the fitting of a shim (or shims as needed), however; if the link pin hole is wallered out (that's a hugely technical term, basically means bigger than yer pin), you can redrill the hole and put in a bushing or buy a new link. The Good News is that since the later AE Mdl 94s used the same method of attachment to the frame as the pre-64 units, you can buy a NEW link, pin and retaining screw and refit the link. However, you will have to use the post-64 roll pin vs. the screw for attaching the lever to the link. All other parts are interchangeable.

I do not have it with me, but if you can wait a couple of days, I have a NEW, unused 1963 production frame (receiver) that I can measure to get dimensions you can use to compare your bottom of the receiver (where the link fits when the action is closed), that way you will know if the link you have is grossly undersized, or somehow your receiver is oversized, causing the looseness you've noted.

Hope that answers your questions. Joe is right about the markings on the lower tang.

And hey, yep... Winchester 94s are sorta on the "rattly" side; some more so than others. I've got ones from an 1898 up to 1980... and they range from sounding more like a 20 year old rattlesnake, to tighter'n a war drum; and age or condition doesn't seem to fully explain the differences.

Welcome to the Forum.

[Old Coastie]

Here are the only two pictures I could get before the flash decided to give up. What I was trying to show was the amount the finger lever moves, basically from one side of the tang to the other. I was also trying to show the shape of the forward part of the link, but it is not real evident.





Griff,

I would very much like to compare dimensions of either the rear width of the link, the opening in the frame for the link or both. If you get the chance, can you also look at wether your rifle has the long or short cartrige guides. Mine has the short, I think based on pictures posted here. It's good to know I can replace these parts with the newer AE parts if necessary. I really wanted this gun as a shooter so it would not make a great deal of difference to me. Of course, I would prefer to use pre 64 parts. I know I can get a finger lever at e-gunparts but they don't have a link on hand. This could turn into a long term project.

Thanks everyone.

Thanks.

[Griff]

O.C.,
This particular receiver is a NIB part; it was never assembled, never had a screw installed, nary a mark in its bluing until clumsy ol' me started fitting up parts to assemble it into a completed gun. All the pre-64 parts I've accumulated for it are used, some are junk and will be discarded... but its kinda on the back burner due to more pressing projects... AND that ever-growing honey-do (or is that over-due?), list! I'll be home late Thursday and get the dial calipers out., tho'

[J Miller]

Old Coastie,

From your pictures it looks to me like someone in the past has worked your link over with a file. The sides at the front are angled at the rear instead of parallel, and the shoulders at the rear are way to narrow.

Compare your pictures to the ones in my thread. I have no doubt of the amount of side to side play you have now. I'd go for a new link without a second thought.

If you want I can hang a caliper on the bottom opening of my 1950 Win 94 and give you some measurements. Maybe the link too.

Joe

[Old Coastie]

To both Joe and Griff a large thanks you. I would be very appreciative if you could measure up the frame opening and the link. That should give me a great baseline to work from.

How hard is it to find a finger lever a link and the other required pieces? As I mentioned above, if new parts are necessary, and it looks like they might be, can the full set of pre 64 parts be found? I have located a finger lever but have had no luck with a link, at least to this point. Guess it is time to get really serious.

Thanks again guys.

[Ysabel Kid]

Welcome to the fire OC!

[J Miller]

OC,

I'll get the rifle and the calipers out tomorrow. You might try Winchester Bobs
{ http://winchesterbob.com/ } . He's got lots of goodies for the Pre-64s.



Joe

[J Miller]

OC,

Here are the measurements to the link and bottom of the receiver:

Receiver bottom at the front where link pin passes through;
Receiver internal width: .588"
Front of link where link pin passes through: .587"
(NOTE) The wide sides of the link are parallel to the inside walls of the reciever.

Receiver bottom at the rear just forward of the locking bolt;
Receiver internal width: .840"
Rear of link, wide part just to the sides of the locking bolt: .813"

Link pin: ..184"

Side to side movement on my lever at the trigger stop button: Just under 1/16".

I hope this helps some. Now that I've touched my Winchester I gotta go shoot it ...

Joe

[Griff]

Here are the measurements to the link and bottom of the NIB pre-64 receiver I have, (some differences from Joe's):

Receiver bottom at the front where link pin passes through;
Receiver internal width: .587"
Front of link where link pin passes through: .587"
(NOTE) The wide sides of the link are parallel to the inside walls of the reciever.

Receiver bottom at the rear just forward of the locking bolt;
Receiver internal width: .828"
Rear of link, wide part just to the sides of the locking bolt: .814"

Link pin: ..183"

All the parts except the receiver in this are used... and I don't have a lever fitted to this one yet. As you can see, there are some manufacturing tolerances between individual examples. Which is one of the benefits Winchester received in going to the sintered steel parts... tolerances could be held tighter and hand fitting could be reduced. I'm thinking of using a late post-64 lifter, but have to find pre-64 guides as they screw into the frame, while the post-64 types screw into the guide. Then it's some deep thinking on what style and length of barrel I want to use... 'cause the caliber is cast in stone! It'll have to be a .30WCF!

I hope this helps some. Now that I've dug this one out... I've got to go find some more parts!

[J Miller]

Griff,

I had fits getting my measurements. I didn't want to fully disassemble the rifle so all I did was take out the link pin. So all my measurements had to be done with the link and lever flopping around in the way.

I'm really surprised at just how close our measurements were.

Joe

[Griff]

Griff,
I had fits getting my measurements. I didn't want to fully disassemble the rifle so all I did was take out the link pin. So all my measurements had to be done with the link and lever flopping around in the way.
I'm really surprised at just how close our measurements were.
Joe

I actually had to take the link outta mine... didn't realize/remember I'd fitted one. Still not right as the tips on the lower tang are in the way... I'll got take one of my other pre-64s apart and see if this tang is different. It could be an early post '64...