45-70 loads ?

[JReed]

I know this has been hashed over a ton of times but I am asking any way. What are some good 45-70 loads for trapdoor class rifles. My smith has oked my RB for light smokeless loads I know that 5744 is considered a good powder but I dont have any books that list a load for it. I will mostly be shooting bullets from 405gr-500gr not looking for anything over BP speeds as that is what the sights were made for.

What are some good powders and loads. If you dont want to post them for all to see you can PM me. I take all responsibility for the safety of my self and my gun.

Thanks

P.S. I know BP is best but the only stuff around here is Pyrodex and from what I have read it doesn't always make for the most accurate BPCR loads.

[Old Ironsights]

Set the Wayback machine to June 20...

Here is the link to the Laser Cast "low velocity" Load Data

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm


This is the data for 300gr Laser Cast bullets.

45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 63 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
700X 7.0 912 13.2 2.1
8.0 997 10.4 4.5
9.0 1079 10.3 3.1
10.0 1151 15.2 2.1
11.0 1215 10.9 1.58


45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 64 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
AA2 8.0 875 22.2 2.2
9.0 971 7.2 2.2
10.0 1047 9.1 2.7
11.0 1117 16.0 1.78
12.0 1181 9.9 2.0


GMDR assumes NO liability for mishaps of any kind resulting from the use or misuse of this data

45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 64 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
Bullseye 7.0 884 26.9 3.8
8.0 965 17.3 3.4
9.0 1042 10.6 2.7
10.0 1117 6.6 2.6
11.0 1189 10.1 1.49


45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 62 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
GreenDot 8.0 878 24.9 3.3
9.0 961 28.8 2.5
10.0 1056 8.5 4.5
11.0 1132 22.0 1.56
12.0 1194 18.0 1.20


GMDR assumes NO liability for mishaps of any kind resulting from the use or misuse of this data

45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 64 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
HS6 11.0 897 8.6 1.54
12.0 964 11.7 2.2
13.0 1037 18.0 3.2
14.0 1105 10.0 1.20
15.0 1175 18.2 1.61


45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 60 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
HS7 12.0 882 29.5 2.3
13.0 961 14.8 2.7
14.0 1022 12.6 2.7
15.0 1089 14.7 3.4
16.0 1148 13.2 1.44


GMDR assumes NO liability for mishaps of any kind resulting from the use or misuse of this data

45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 64 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
Solo1000 8.0 912 11.3 2.6
9.0 990 10.7 1.74
10.0 1056 14.7 2.5
11.0 1127 7.0 3.0
12.0 1200 7.6 1.71


45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 62 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
Solo1250 9.0 914 43.0 3.0
10.0 1001 15.0 2.9
11.0 1081 14.8 2.4
12.0 1151 14.9 1.88
13.0 1214 14.6 1.91


GMDR assumes NO liability for mishaps of any kind resulting from the use or misuse of this data

45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 64 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
TiteGroup 7.0 908 12.5 3.0
8.0 992 12.3 7
9.0 1071 16.2 4
10.0 1143 9.2 2.2
11.0 1227 8.7 1.73


45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 64 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
TiteWad 7.0 885 20.0 2.3
8.0 966 14.3 2.6
9.0 1052 11.0 2.6
10.0 1117 8.0 1.47
11.0 1190 12.7 1.64


GMDR assumes NO liability for mishaps of any kind resulting from the use or misuse of this data

45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 65 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
Unique 8.0 837 26.9 4
9.0 928 30.4 1.78
10.0 1018 13.6 2.5
11.0 1081 17.3 3.2
12.0 1151 10.8 1.71


45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 62 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
VVn320 8.0 849 16.6 2.7
9.0 949 11.2 2.2
10.0 1022 10.7 1.86
11.0 1112 5.9 2.1
12.0 1171 9.3 1.31


GMDR assumes NO liability for mishaps of any kind resulting from the use or misuse of this data

45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 60 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
VVn350 10.0 813 43.7 2.6
11.0 915 21.5 2.3
12.0 1000 23.6 2.2
13.0 1088 12.3 2.2
14.0 1155 17.9 1.72


45-70 Government 300gr FPbb
PR: WLR CM: Rem TempF: 64 OAL: 2.515"
PT PW Vel SD GS
W231 8.0 868 28.1 3.2
9.0 941 24.3 2.9
10.0 1005 16.0 2.1
11.0 1095 18.3 1.91
12.0 1164 11.9 1.64


GMDR assumes NO liability for mishaps of any kind resulting from the use or misuse of this data

[KirkD]

I have an original Springfield Model 1888 45-70 and have chrono'd a few loads with 5744:

23.4 grains 5744 & 1 sheet of 1-ply toilet paper under a 500 grain SAECO 881 PB RN bullet for 1,167 fps, E.S. of 10 fps, and an S.D. of 4 fps

25 grains of 5744 & 1 sheet of 1-ply toilet paper under a 500 grain SAECO 881 PT RN bullet for 1,232 fps, E.S. of 16 fps, and an S.D. of 7 fps

24 grains of 5744 & 1 sheet of 1-ply toilet paper under a 405 grain cast FP, PB bullet for 1,277 fps, E.S. of 53 fps, and an S.D. of 16 fps.

These are all gentle loads that are safe in a trapdoor rifle. I use toilet paper filler because my bullets were sized .002 too small in diameter. If you delete the toilet paper, the pressure will be slightly lower and so will your velocity. Without the toilet paper, I'd guess that the velocities will drop around 70 fps.

[longarm4146]

I went on the trapdoor shooters sight and found that many of them were using 25-25.5 grs of 5744 with a 405 bullet. I've been using this for about 10 yrs with good luck. Its around 1100 fps out of a long barrel rifle if i remember right.

[don Tomás]

Jeremy,
I've had good luck with IMR Trail Boss:
405gn cast: 12gn Trail Boss (971fps, 24,500CUP) - 13gn Trail Boss (1007fps, 25,600CUP)

Trail Boss is nice & fluffy and does a good job filling up those big ol' cases.


If you're flush enough or want to take a loan out on the house, I really recommend Black Horn 209. You get the boom/smoke of BP with out all the rifle/cartridge case cleanup hassle. You can see my results here.

[Ben_Rumson]

Whatever you do, at least slug your bore..better yet do a chamber cast to determine what size bullet you need at the breach end of the bore...then use a soft alloy in the range of 1/20 or else shoot a gas checked bullet.

[JReed]

Whatever you do, at least slug your bore..better yet do a chamber cast to determine what size bullet you need at the breach end of the bore...then use a soft alloy in the range of 1/20 or else shoot a gas checked bullet.

I should hear back from the smith this week he is slugging the bore and doing a chamber cast. The 20:1 is what I was planning on using I dont plan on running bullets fast enough to worry about much leading plus with the softer pills they should bump up and fill the groves nicely. By the way have you done any more playing around with you 50-70?

[don Tomás]

Whatever you do, at least slug your bore..

+1 What Ben said. I shoot .461 diameter. Those TD bores can get pretty sloppy...
Tom

[O.S.O.K.]

25 grains of XMP-5744 is a good TD load - do use softer alloy and SPG or equivalent lube. You may consider a hollow base bullet.

[Ben_Rumson]

That's great JR.. Yeah had the 50-70 out a couple of weeks ago bouncing around coffee cans.. Blew up a watermellon set out at a hunnert

[Doc Hudson]

I wish I could help, but the only smokeless .45-70 loads I've made would probably wreck a Rolling Block.

I always used 65 grains of Elephant FFg with a 510 grain hard cast semi-spitzer FP lubed with Montana Gold Lube and a cardboard wad over the powder in my Rolling Block. or a 405gr. FP withe the same powder charge.

Doc

[Ben_Rumson]

Doc Hudson wrote

I wish I could help, but the only smokeless .45-70 loads I've made would probably wreck a Rolling Block.

P.O. Ackley Tests Roller to destruction..

September 1953 issue page 70 AMERICAN RIFLEMAN... In a letter in DOPE BAG a writer refers to P.O. Ackley's well known tests of the strength of various military actions.. The writer also says that Ackley also tested other actions including an old pitted rolling block action from a 50-70 which Ackley barreled up in 30 06 Improved and started running his high pressure tests through it..He finally started getting more notable results when he reached a duplex load of 30 gr. Hi Vel # 2 combined with 30gr 2400 and bulged the barrel, but the action still held.. Finally on the 20th shot with that load the action broke in two from the back of the barrel down through the breech block pin...He says compare that to the 1903 Springfield's which generally blow up on the first shot with that load.. Lol
He went on to say that he used a similar action that had been barreled in 11 mm (a common cal. for the olden days) He rebarreled it to 375 H&H Mag. Tied it to an old tire & fired 10 rounds thru it with no apparent damage..
There was a comment from Gen. Hatcher that detailed some of the tests on rolling blocks in old Government reports .. Like stacking a load of black powder and a bullet on top of it in the barrel & repeating that until the barrel was half full then firing it .. Reporting the action still held...

[longarm4146]

+1 on using softter bullet...I'm using a .459 hollow base bullet with 25 grs 5744 and can consistently ring 24"X24" steel at 500 yds with the biffington sight. Wife even won a SASS side match with the trapdoor.

[Old Ironsights]

AFAIC, the first, best and PRIMARY bullet of anybody casting for .45-70 should be the 457122 "Gould" 320gr HP.

That is THE classic .45-70 bullet.

Yes, you can "improve" things with a wider meplat & heavier GC bullet, but that is IMO a secondary design for specific purposes. The Gould is the .45-70 GP bullet.

Just like the (my) primary/GP .357 bullet is the 358156 HP. My 180 WFN is my deer bullet, but the 358156 is still the "gold standard" - and is the mold in my BOB...

[Doc Hudson]

Doc Hudson wrote

I wish I could help, but the only smokeless .45-70 loads I've made would probably wreck a Rolling Block.

P.O. Ackley Tests Roller to destruction..

September 1953 issue page 70 AMERICAN RIFLEMAN... In a letter in DOPE BAG a writer refers to P.O. Ackley's well known tests of the strength of various military actions.. The writer also says that Ackley also tested other actions including an old pitted rolling block action from a 50-70 which Ackley barreled up in 30 06 Improved and started running his high pressure tests through it..He finally started getting more notable results when he reached a duplex load of 30 gr. Hi Vel # 2 combined with 30gr 2400 and bulged the barrel, but the action still held.. Finally on the 20th shot with that load the action broke in two from the back of the barrel down through the breech block pin...He says compare that to the 1903 Springfield's which generally blow up on the first shot with that load.. Lol
He went on to say that he used a similar action that had been barreled in 11 mm (a common cal. for the olden days) He rebarreled it to 375 H&H Mag. Tied it to an old tire & fired 10 rounds thru it with no apparent damage..
There was a comment from Gen. Hatcher that detailed some of the tests on rolling blocks in old Government reports .. Like stacking a load of black powder and a bullet on top of it in the barrel & repeating that until the barrel was half full then firing it .. Reporting the action still held...

Shortly after Remington intorduced the Rolling Block, the proof house in Liege, Belgium acquired one. They attempted to test it to destruction.

The rifle was loaded with a primed cartridge case, 750 grains of powder, with an overpowder wad, and 43 bullets, topped by another wad completed the load. The charge length was 36-inches. The rifle was loaded from breech to muzzle.

The tester strapped the rifle in a rifle rest, attached a lanyard to the trigger, and withdrew behind a high, thick stone wall and pulled the lanyard. There was a helluva blast and the rifle was undamaged.

Rolling blocks are tough, but I'm not as bold as P.O. Ackley when it comes to Rolling Blocks and smokeless powder. And would you really want to shoot a load in a Rolling Block that produced over 2000 fps (chronographed) with a 405 grain cast FP in a Marlin Guide Gun? I would not. While the accuracy was acceptable, the Guide Gun killed on one end and crippled on the other.

[Don McDowell]

25 grs of 5744 with 500 gr bullets is identical in velocity to the same bullet and 68 grs Goex Cartridge powder. Both loads will shoot to the same point of aim, and are indestinquishable in the group on the paper.
The Lyman 48 book has plenty of smokeless loads for the 45-70 , and Accurates web site lists Trapdoor level loads.
Depending on what you want to do with the rifle and the twist rate 405 and 500 gr bullets are real good choices for everything from hunting to long range target shooting.
You can get some of the best 45-70 bullets for your roller from a couple of places, both Sage Outfitters (their lube is working way better for me in both black and smokeless than SPG) and Montana Bullet Works, just add the www. and .com to look at the web pages. I like to buy a given bullet before buying the mold just to make sure me and the rifle are going to like it
As to bp not available in your immediate vecinity? No sweat just go to Grafs web and order up a few pounds. You can order as low as 1lb if you like, but the hazmat makes that a terrible expensive lb of powder, best to get 4 or 5 to cheapen things up a bit.

[AndyM]

I have used 28 grains of 5744 with the 405 grain lead flatpoint with good success in my Pedersoli Sharps. I purchase 20:1 bullets from Mt.Badly Bullets http://www.mtbaldybullets.com/

[JReed]

Thanks for all the great info.

I had read the Belgium tests I can only imagine how loud that boom was.

I know that the roller is a strong action but I have no plans to abuse a 130 year old rifle. TD loads should be just fine I would like to work up a 500gr load so I can use it out west when I PCS in a few years lots of oportunites to shoot long range in SoCal if you know were all the BLM is.

Yeah Graff has good prices on their powder but I can go to the local Gander Mt and pick up a can of 5744 for so much less once you include hazmat and shipping. As I am the only one working in a house of four I have to go with the cheapest route.

[Ray Newman]

Jeremy: since you are planning on shooting a rifle that is 100+ years old, I suggest that you find a solid rest for it, attach a long lanyard, & then fire it.

I make this suggestion as the Rolling Block has no really safe way of venting gas from a pierced primer. & none of us know this rifle’s history.

I know that the gunsmith said it was OK to shoot w/ light smokeless loads. A friend once was told the same by his gunsmith, but the block had a firing pin that was a bit too long, it pierced the primer & lucky he was wearing shooting glasses.

Also when opening the block & removing the cartridge, run your finger over the face of the block to make sure the firing pin fully retracted. On original Rollers, the pin “floated” to the rear when the block opened. However, years of grime, dry firing, plus shooting debris can keep the pin from fully retracting & could cause the cartridge to fire before the block is fully locked up.

[txpete]

here is another vote for AA5744.one of the best if not the best powder I have "ever" used in my 45/70.no filler needed and not temp senstive.I have tried trail boss and well lets just say what I have left of it will go into 38 special cases ...
pete

[JReed]

Ray thanks for the advice. The bench and string trick is some thing I plan on doing.

[don Tomás]

Ray thanks for the advice. The bench and string trick is some thing I plan on doing.

Jeremy, an old tire works fine. That's what I used for the first couple of rounds out of my old TrapDoor. Lay the tire on the ground, turn the butt vertically inside the tire (tire should hold the stock in place) so that the piece is held in the normal shooting position and maybe put a couple of 2x4's between the ground and butt end of tire to bring the muzzle down. String passes under the tire. I also placed a heavy old folded blanket over the carbine to try and contain any possible shrapnel (which was fortunately unnecessary!).
Tom

[JReed]

That works I have a couple of old tires around the house that should do the trick.