Winchester 94 stock fit and affect on accuracy ???

[O.S.O.K.]

Just thought I'd ask those that have experience with accurizing their Winchester 94's (or any levergun for that matter).

My 30-30AI project gun was shooting pretty good but would give me "flyers" that I didn't call. Now, I know that my bench techniqe wasn't the very best and I'm going to improve that the next trip out, but the topic of this post (the question) is how much does buttstock fit affect the accuracy of the levergun?

I know that it really affects accuracy on bolt guns - I've had plenty of first hand experience with that. It really affects it.

My m94 had ( I say 'had' cause I just apoxy bedded the stock ) a little play - enough that it could easily be moving under recoil a slight bit - and I am sure in a non-consistent way.

So, do you think this was likely causing the flyers? They were only a couple of inches - but they would also be a temporary change in point of impact by that much, grouping a couple two or three shots left, then puting a couple center... aggravating as all getout.

What do ya'll think? Will my bedding project solve this issue?

Anybody experience this kind of thing and then fix it by bedding the stock to the receiver tang?

[J Miller]

O.S.O.K.,

I've never had a Win 94 with a stock loose enough to cause trouble ... that I remember. I'm looking back 40+ years now.

But I believe that it could be a factor. If the stock is squirming around as you shoulder and fire it, that can't be good for accuracy.

One thing for sure though, you'll find out next range day. That will tell the story for sure.

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

Well, I'll find out... that either this was a factor or my bench technique was a factor...

I was resting the front (out on the handguard) and the butt was on my shoulder -with no support. I need to get the front resting closer to the receiver and rest the butt with a bag - to prevent movement.

And the stock wasn't wimbly wambly - it fit fairly snug but it could move under recoil - or if you whacked the stock with your hand hard enough - that kinda movement.

But you're right - it'll come out in the wash!

[Nath]

I have the exact same problem with flyers my self from my 30/30 trapper and for the life of me can not get rid of it, just when I think I have a good load the flyers return.
I have relieved the front ring-no change, sanded the fore end-no change and stoned the trigger and still no change. I have scrubbed and scrubbed the barrel-no change. I have checked my die for run out and no change. I have tried a few other things to try and provide an answer, today I bought some H4895 to try and just when I thought I've cracked it shot 4 goes way of and it was the same with the two other test loads and the current load I'm using!
The other trapper I had years back was not as bad as this one regularly printing two inch clusters but this one is a pain to be honest. It is a regular pattern and I am convinced it is to do with the barrel, if I use a light 110gn bullet it performs very well but the moment I add a heavy bullet it produces flyers. It is trying to tell me something but I just cannot put my finger on it. My stock does not seem loose.

I'll be watching this post

Nath.

[O.S.O.K.]

Nath, I would recommend getting a 45 degree chamfering cutter tool and appropriate brass pilot (.308") from Brownells.

This is a very handy tool to have on hand and with different sized pilots it can be used for different rifles.

This tool recuts a uniform terminus on your rifle's muzzle - where the rifling ends. It this is not uniform all the way around, you can get erratic performance like that.

I may need to check this on my new rifle as well.

It never hurts to cut the chamfer and almost always improves accuracy on the older rifles that I primarily use it on - sometimes dramatically.

Oh, and get a brass muzzle lap while you're at it - this finishes off the job.



product code 080-588-625

[Pete44ru]

I would respectfully recommend you bench shoot a levergun the same way you would shoot it at game - let no part of the gun's wood or metal parts touch anything but some part of your body, period.

I get very tight groups by placing my forward hand between the forend and the forward rest, while it grasps the forend, pulling the rifle both backward into my shoulder and down.
The butt is on my shoulder, unless it's a crescent BP - which goes on the bicep.
The trigger hand grasps the stock tightly while pulling the butt straight back - all the while keeping the trigger finger free to light off a round.

.

[Comal Forge]

I agree with Pete. I think your flyers are more a function of inconsistent grip than bedding, sights, stock, etc. A lever carbine is not a tack driver but it's handy and plenty accurate for the intent - killing game at relatively close range, with the assumption there will be little time to react. The 94 is not a 600 yd gopher gun and it was not intended to be but it will shoot plenty good off a bench and bags - in fact, it will probably compete with your model 70 in .30-06 using similar sights at 100 yds. The key to comparing them to other rifles is to level the playing field and make it an "apples to apples" test.

[O.S.O.K.]

I'm pretty well versed with leverguns in good shape with well fitted stock... and bolts - I'm just wanting 2" round groups at 100 yards and was wondering how much the loose buttstock would possibly be affecting this.

Most of my other levers do that - some are 'only' 3" rifles but that's 1.5" from point of aim which is plenty good and some will do 1.5".

Here's the rifle - not a carbine with a 26" barrel and Marlble tang sight...



and here's the bedding that I did just FYI:



I didn't post these in this thread because they're in other threads...

[salvo]

O.S.O.K., Paco wrote this great piece on accurizing a levergun, might give you a few ideas.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/chapter23.htm

[Comal Forge]

Nice rifle - ought to shoot like a champ.

I have a few thoughts - might be some help in diagnosis: Was the sequence of the fliers consistent; i.e. was it shot #4, 5 and 6 or something else that was in any way predictable? Was it hot - did the rifle lie out in the sun or were you in the shade while shooting? Were you single loading each shot or filling up the mag? Are the fliers repeatable at shorter distances or do they just show up at 100yds? Was your ammo reloads or factory stuff?

[O.S.O.K.]

Nice rifle - ought to shoot like a champ.

I have a few thoughts - might be some help in diagnosis: Was the sequence of the fliers consistent; i.e. was it shot #4, 5 and 6 or something else that was in any way predictable? Was it hot - did the rifle lie out in the sun or were you in the shade while shooting? Were you single loading each shot or filling up the mag? Are the fliers repeatable at shorter distances or do they just show up at 100yds? Was your ammo reloads or factory stuff?

All good questions. Yes, I'm in Texas and the rifle got a little warm as I shot. Fed it singly. The flyers were not predictable. And groups were tight at 50 and opened up more at 100. Reloads - test loads - only 5 of each which is part of the challenge here...

I'm trying to eliminate some variables- the stock bedding is one and the bench technique is another. Also, I was using a small aperture (target) for testing to help eliminate some sighting error - though, with 32" of sight radius, that should be minimal....

[Comal Forge]

All good questions. Yes, I'm in Texas and the rifle got a little warm as I shot. Fed it singly. The flyers were not predictable. And groups were tight at 50 and opened up more at 100. Reloads - test loads - only 5 of each which is part of the challenge here...

I'm trying to eliminate some variables- the stock bedding is one and the bench technique is another. Also, I was using a small aperture (target) for testing to help eliminate some sighting error - though, with 32" of sight radius, that should be minimal....

I'm over in New Braunfels so tengo entendido sobre el calor. One obvious thing I forgot to ask - was there any cross wind to speak of?

I used to practice offhand pistol shooting with a National champion and he was always lecturing about trigger control to eliminate side to side stringing. Not sure how much that affects a rifle but might be a factor. Sounds like you have a lot of experience so I bet you'll solve it.

[O.S.O.K.]

Yeah, it was around 100 degrees that day. But thankfully, our new range now has a cover over the rifle line

Well, I try to eliminate some "obvious" stuff first - and then focus on breath and trigger control. I was getting some stange behaviour on target that I didn't call -which if repeated usually means the rifle/load is causing it. And I've never known a shifty stock not to affect accuracy - but then I haven't had experience with levergun stocks moving on me like this...

I am just trying to determine if my handloads are performing - after a load is picked, then I will practice shooting off-hand.

Shooting as you do in the field is a lot more fun and practical. My bench work is purely to test loads and equipment.

IIRC, the wind was from my back and not too brisk - so, probably not a factor - plus, I was shooting a 150 grain 30 caliber bullet with BC of .340 or so going 2500 to 2587 fps, so wind shouldn't that much of a factor. And the group shifts were verticle some too - not just horizontal - which is why I strongly suspect the stock was shifting and causing the variation.

Pete44u, I think you are right - I normally do just that - shoot with my left hand under the forend wood and the butt against my shoulder. Just that that's not quite as stable as when the rifle's locked down on a rest/bag. But it does need to be back to avoid bouncing off of the front rest. I will try this again though and see how it goes.

Thanks for everybody's input.

[O.S.O.K.]

Well got to thinking about it and decided to go ahead and chamfer my rifle's muzzle. This went just fine and it produced a nice clean terminus to the rifling. This is not noticable BTW unless you are looking for it - just a bright shiney ring where the rifling ends.

And while I'm cleaning it up, I notice something on the rifling - first off, it's got some copper on it - I didn't clean it thoroughly after the last shoot - just used some breakfree to remove the powder fouling and oil it up.

But there looked to be a small amount of surface rust - at least, it was redish looking fouling..

So I got some lapping compound out (600 grit) and applied this to a patch with some oil and worked that back and forth. Cleaned, and followed this with some Rem bore cleaner (polishing type) and cleaned that - then used some Hoppes and followed with the breakfree. The bore now looks shiney and perfect.

I wonder if that could be part of the issue? I think it would just make larger groups though - not cause shifting about.

Brand new barrel - had some surface rust.... I didn't see this when I received it or when I cleaned it the first time - maybe the shooting brought it out?

If I see this again, I'm going to firelapp the bore - that should remove any trace of this kind of thing.

Well, it'll have to wait till next weekend.

[bogus bill]

I think the biggest factor will be in the forearm, mag tube, and bands holding all that! I own a 94 I bought new as a kid in about 1955. I made two mods. A pad for length as I am big and a williams foolproof peep, put em on right after I bought the rifle. I dont shoot it much as I have many more rifles, but I still trust it. No matter when I try it every few years it is sighted in and gives nice groups. I once shot a nice buck outlined on the side of a mountain while in a wet snow storm. I really shouldnt have tried the shot. It was about 220 uphill yards!

[J Miller]

O.S.O.K.,

Don't go crazy with the lapping. You could cause more harm than good.

Saturate the bore with Hoppes or any good bore solvent. Then turn the rifle muzzle down over a folded up rag and let the solvent work over night. It will clean out most if not all the copper deposits. I do this every so often with all my 30 cals.

Joe

[Pete44ru]

FYI - I know I'm preaching to the choir, but anyone wanting to clean a copper-fouled barrel, will be literally days ahead by using Hoppe's No.9 Copper Solvent, ILO Hoppe's No.9 Powder Solvent (bore cleaner).

.