POLITICS Paul endorses Baldwin

[bunklocoempire]

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog/?p=582#more-582
"I’ve thought about the unsolicited advice from the Libertarian Party candidate, and he has convinced me to reject my neutral stance in the November election. I’m supporting Chuck Baldwin, the Constitution Party candidate."

Bunkloco

[bogus bill]

Bunklocal, A lot of us like someone like Ron Paul or if I had my way Thompson or Rommney better than say McCain. However a fact of life is that either the democrats or republican WILL win! In the main general election to vote for a party that dont have a snowballs chance in hell of winning is totaly throwing a vote away. Either Obama or McCain will rule you! Wouldnt it be better in your case to vote for the one that you can stomach more than the other? If you dont, you are effectively voteing FOR the one you hate the worst. Yes many people are hard headed will vote for someone who no way can win, and you will have your private pride in pointing out whoever wins all their screwups and say I didnt vote for him! But you in realality DID by throwing your vote away!

[bunklocoempire]

Bunklocal, A lot of us like someone like Ron Paul or if I had my way Thompson or Rommney better than say McCain. However a fact of life is that either the democrats or republican WILL win! In the main general election to vote for a party that dont have a snowballs chance in hell of winning is totaly throwing a vote away. Either Obama or McCain will rule you! Wouldnt it be better in your case to vote for the one that you can stomach more than the other? If you dont, you are effectively voteing FOR the one you hate the worst. Yes many people are hard headed will vote for someone who no way can win, and you will have your private pride in pointing out whoever wins all their screwups and say I didnt vote for him! But you in realality DID by throwing your vote away!

I appreciate the encouragement.

Understand there is no worst when it comes to pi$$ing away United States Sovereignty monetarily or militarily. That reasoning don't fly.

It was also a fact of life that the British had the colonies under their thumb.

Your welcome to join up any time, now or four years from now when the movement has the odds you favor. This movement will not tolerate a slow boil.

We're ready now. If we don't win you can bet on the vote being split. All hail Obama


Respectively, Bunkloco

[reo]

It shouldn't be, but it is going to be hard to do the right thing in the voting booth this year. While saying, it is hard to do the right thing admits a character flaw, it is the only way to say it. Chuck Baldwin '08.

[FWiedner]

The oft used statement that voting 3rd party is throwing away your vote, combined with the fear tactic of claiming that a vote for a 3rd party candidate is a vote for the worst of the first two is a weak argument to voters who are willing to think for themselves, and who are unwilling to simply attach themselves to a party and hope for the best.

Saying that you prefer a better candidate but that you'll vote for what you get is equivalent to saying "I know I could be free, but my chains don't weigh that much, and life without the master frightens me."

Neither the Democratic or the Republican parties, nor their candidates for president, offer a path of Freedom for the People of this nation. What they do offer is the opportunity to join in on Freedom's death march, and they are enthusiastically encouraging the People to cheer and wave in the wake of the misery their policies create all along the way.

Continuing to support these parties as they are will ultimately lead to ruin. Continuing to support the Democrats and the Republicans will sentence your descendants to subjugation and oppression under a fascist government which will impose socialism onto all the peoples of the world.

[Rusty]

I heard radio talk show hoast Neal Boortz talking about this yesterday. He was saying that he WOULD vote for Libertairian party candidate Bob Barr except for the fact that Mr.Barr is still referring to our troops in Iraq as occupiers. He said he would only vote for Barr if he knew he wouldn't win. The idea being that the vote would serve to be a vote for the Libertairian party. He also stated that his vote only counts in his home state, it has no national standing. You'll have to think that through to understand it, but he is right.

[Ysabel Kid]

Remember how we elect a President every four years. It is not a nationwide popularity contest - i.e. - a direct vote where the majority of the nation actually elects the President. In almost all cases this is how it ends up, but the President is elected by winning the majority of the electoral college votes. States are apportioned electoral college votes based on the number of senators they have (all have two) and the number of representatives they have. Each state has at least one representative, but the number is based on population. Almost all the states "instruct" their representation to the electoral college to vote in accordance with the state residents' votes - i.e. - the winner of the majority of the votes in the state gets ALL that state's electoral college votes.

So, the strategy has to be to win electoral college votes. This is why some of the deepest "red states" and "blue states" are written off by either candidate early, and they tend to focus on the "battleground states" - those states that are a nasty shade of purple and often flip back and forth - and that have significant numbers of electoral college votes. FL, OH, and PA will be huge this year.

Casting a "protest" vote in a secure state is fine. It may indeed "send a message". Trading votes is fine. However, casting a protest vote for the Libertarian party candidate or the Constitution party candidate in a "battleground state" only helps elect the person farthest from your point of view. Truth hurts.

So, if Palin isn't enough to get you to vote for the McCain/Palin ticket, the thought of an Obama/Biden administration should be. Pinch you nose and do the right thing!!!

[Old Ironsights]

+1 Kid.

I'm going to the polls Late this year. I don't think Indiana is much of a "battleground", but we'll see.

I'll only vote for McChurian/Palin if things are tight.

If either (R) or (D) looks like a Lock I'm voting Cthulu.

[AmBraCol]

The oft used statement that voting 3rd party is throwing away your vote, combined with the fear tactic of claiming that a vote for a 3rd party candidate is a vote for the worst of the first two is a weak argument to voters who are willing to think for themselves, and who are unwilling to simply attach themselves to a party and hope for the best.

What's the world coming to? I actually find myself agreeing with FWiedner!!! My vote is mine - no one else's. It expresses my opinion and my freedom to choose. When my opinion goes against that of the majority, so be it. My vote is never wasted even when it goes against the grain of the majority. The old mantra of "If you don't vote Dem or Rep you're wasting your vote." is a fallacy that is too often repeated. And it doesn't make sense at all. It's only "true" if you believe that the two major parties are the epitome of wisdom and knowledge and that there are no other ways of thinking out there. Anyone who THINKS for himself can see that there are other alternatives. They may not be popular, but they are there. A vote for the Dem or Rep party is a vote for "the lesser of two evils". It's about time we quit voting for evil and started thinking on our own and voting for the best choice IN SPITE OF THE ODDS. When we learn to break out of the lockstep thinking that has drug our country down a steady spiral of "lesser evils" (that each time are greater and greater in magnitude) then perhaps we can reclaim the country our forefathers bled and died for instead of the socialist nightmare that we are creating with our constant "vote for the lesser of two evils" mantra. Who will I vote for come November? I'm not sure yet. But if I DON'T vote for "The Messiah" or for the unfortunately backward ticket (P should precede M on the ticket) I'm not "throwing my vote away", I'm expressing my opinion that the lesser of two evils is still evil - and that's a valid vote whether the majority agree with me or not. Right is not a matter of majority opinion. And there are too many socialist tendencies in McCain for me to think that a vote for him (regardless of VP on ticket) is a solid vote for freedom.

[pharmseller]

Oregon is so deeply Liberal that my vote is a statement, not a force. Remember, Dukakis took Oregon quite handily. Not a bad idea to send a message in a state where the issue is not in doubt.

P

[bunklocoempire]

Remember how we elect a President every four years. It is not a nationwide popularity contest - i.e. - a direct vote where the majority of the nation actually elects the President. In almost all cases this is how it ends up, but the President is elected by winning the majority of the electoral college votes. States are apportioned electoral college votes based on the number of senators they have (all have two) and the number of representatives they have. Each state has at least one representative, but the number is based on population. Almost all the states "instruct" their representation to the electoral college to vote in accordance with the state residents' votes - i.e. - the winner of the majority of the votes in the state gets ALL that state's electoral college votes.

So, the strategy has to be to win electoral college votes. This is why some of the deepest "red states" and "blue states" are written off by either candidate early, and they tend to focus on the "battleground states" - those states that are a nasty shade of purple and often flip back and forth - and that have significant numbers of electoral college votes. FL, OH, and PA will be huge this year.

Casting a "protest" vote in a secure state is fine. It may indeed "send a message". Trading votes is fine. However, casting a protest vote for the Libertarian party candidate or the Constitution party candidate in a "battleground state" only helps elect the person farthest from your point of view. Truth hurts.

So, if Palin isn't enough to get you to vote for the McCain/Palin ticket, the thought of an Obama/Biden administration should be. Pinch you nose and do the right thing!!!

Interesting how just this morning, Iraninan President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said basically the same thing (paraphrasing NPR interview) "The U.S. only has two choices for President while Iran has eight". I'll get the quote up when I can find it.

So the "two choice crowd" has good company.

Not singling you out Kid, yours is a popular view.

"Protest vote"?

"Truth hurts"?

"Pinch your nose and do the right thing"?

Are you telling me to be tolerant and accept the "truth"?

Are there any Christians on this forum? I've seen the posts complaining about the lack of morals and declining of a "Christian" Nation. Where'd you all go?

Today's Christians: no hope in God's way http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=10003 Still no discussion on this topic.
"When people — especially Christian people — start doing their duty and standing for truth and principle, whether it is considered politically incorrect, or unpopular, or "naïve," or anything else; then, and only then, will God give us the results that will bring healing and restoration of our land."

Are there any Christians or Americans concerned with American Sovereignty on this forum? Again, I've see the complaints about muslim traditions, illegal immigrants, and "tolerance" being forced on Americans, where'd all those posters go?

Pinch my nose and promote this? "I think globalization is pushing people together and there is a danger that religious faith pulls them apart." -Tony Blair
Faith & Globalization http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=10246 Still no discussion on this topic either.

It's been my experience practicing ones faith by "doing the right thing" no matter the circumstances strengthens ones faith.

Living under Obama aint gonna be no picnic, neither has watching my Liberties civil and monetary slip away under the current administration. Being a Christian is no promise of a hardship free life, and neither is being an American.

Where'd all the Christians go? If lack of replies to my previous posts are any indication, I expect this thread to die quickly.

Bunkloco

[Old Ironsights]

Interesting how just this morning, Iraninan President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said basically the same thing (paraphrasing NPR interview) "The U.S. only has two choices for President while Iran has eight". I'll get the quote up when I can find it.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

We had a chance for a Pro Soverignty. Pro Constitution "Major Party" candidate... but a whole bunch of "Conservatives" decided he was not "Christian" enough or some such and preferred one of the other neo-socialist RINO Yahoos.

So the "two choice crowd" has good company.

Not singling you out Kid, yours is a popular view.

It's not "popular", it's a recognition of the truth. If we can't get enough "Conservatives" to see to it that a Constitutionalist makes it through the primary then there is no way that he will make it in the General.

Period.

Are you telling me to be tolerant and accept the "truth"?

Are there any Christians on this forum? I've seen the posts complaining about the lack of morals and declining of a "Christian" Nation. Where'd you all go?

Exactly WHAT does any particular Religion have to do with it? IIRC the infighting between Evangelicals over a Baptist & a Mormon is one of the big reasons we are stuck with McChurian rather than a Constitutionalist.

Today's Christians: no hope in God's way http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=10003 Still no discussion on this topic.
"When people — especially Christian people — start doing their duty and standing for truth and principle, whether it is considered politically incorrect, or unpopular, or "naïve," or anything else; then, and only then, will God give us the results that will bring healing and restoration of our land."

And Ron Paul would have been the Republican Candidate.

Are there any Christians or Americans concerned with American Sovereignty on this forum? Again, I've see the complaints about muslim traditions, illegal immigrants, and "tolerance" being forced on Americans, where'd all those posters go?

Same place as ever. Voting for Ron Paul (Baldwin?) unless my Electoral Vote is actually up for grabs.

Pinch my nose and promote this? "I think globalization is pushing people together and there is a danger that religious faith pulls them apart." -Tony Blair
Faith & Globalization http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=10246 Still no discussion on this topic either.

It's been my experience practicing ones faith by "doing the right thing" no matter the circumstances strengthens ones faith.

"Faith-driven Politics" will work about as well here as it does in the Middle East...

Living under Obama aint gonna be no picnic, neither has watching my Liberties civil and monetary slip away under the current administration. Being a Christian is no promise of a hardship free life, and neither is being an American.

Where'd all the Christians go? If lack of replies to my previous posts are any indication, I expect this thread to die quickly. Bunkloco

My FAITH has squat all to do with my Politics. If your Faith and your Politics get too intertwined nothing but Theocraric Totalitarianisim can result.

My Faith will exist regardless of WHO is president... my Constitution won't. I'm going to defend my Constitution, to the best of my PRACTICAL ability because my FAITH does not need defending.

[bogus bill]

Old ironsights, thought I made it clear here before that I am voteing republican especaly because palin is christian. However, I belong to another 4 gun sites, and do get mixed up in where I wrote what. I am a christian and while not trying to shove it down peoples throat, I certinly never hide it. Between McCains proven patriatism and palins proven pro life christanity, that alone gets my vote! I think gods hand is in this election.

[Old Ironsights]

Old ironsights, thought I made it clear here before that I am voteing republican especaly because palin is christian. However, I belong to another 4 gun sites, and do get mixed up in where I wrote what. I am a christian and while not trying to shove it down peoples throat, I certinly never hide it. Between McCains proven patriatism and palins proven pro life christanity, that alone gets my vote! I think gods hand is in this election.

That's fine. My response was primarily addressing what bunkloco wrote. Your reason for choosing McChurian/Palin is your own, and that is fine.

But it is a far cry from being told that "real Christians" shoud vote to lose it all in the general because they already voted to lose most of it in the Primary.

[PaulB]

It may be true that putting makeup on a pig makes your pig prettier than your neighbor's pig - but he is still a pig. There's been a lot of makeup used around here lately, trying to pretty-up McCain. Sorry, the "fear o' Obama" ain't enough for me to wish for 4 years of Bush III, certainly not to help it happen. Ugh. I'm staying home this election, and raising a toast to the impending 2nd Revolution (or 3rd, if you count the Southern secession) - no matter who gets elected.

In fact I wrote a little article about a 50-state secession:
http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2008/tle485-20080921-03.html

Dump D.C.!

[Old Ironsights]

It may be true that putting makeup on a pig makes your pig prettier than your neighbor's pig - but he is still a pig. There's been a lot of makeup used around here lately, trying to pretty-up McCain. Sorry, the "fear o' Obama" ain't enough for me to wish for 4 years of Bush III, certainly not to help it happen. Ugh. I'm staying home this election, and raising a toast to the impending 2nd Revolution (or 3rd, if you count the Southern secession) - no matter who gets elected.

In fact I wrote a little article about a 50-state secession:
http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2008/tle485-20080921-03.html

Dump D.C.!

Well, like I said, and as I have mentioned to Neil, the odds of my vote being needed to swing Indiana are slim to none. But if it is, I will be voting Palin, for all the reasons in "Never Forgive & Never Forget"...

pee off a progressive & protect our guns just a little longer... I don't have enough ammo stockpiled yet to deal with an Obamanation.

[bunklocoempire]

OI thanks for the reply, It is not for me to question (nor was it intended) anyones "degree" of faith except my own. I do question my own faith, and that questioning tells me I still have faith, and, that I need to practice it to strengthen it (neverending). I am encourageing all to do the same by their own self examination, I apologize if I offended any, I can't apologize for trying to "arrogant idiot consciences".

My FAITH has squat all to do with my Politics. If your Faith and your Politics get too intertwined nothing but Theocraric Totalitarianisim can result.

My faith has more and more to do with politics (why/how I vote), not as Theocraric Totalitarianism, but in the sense that government can only be changed (peacefully) if folks "take that leap", I prefer peaceful, not taking that "leap" now will lead to the inevitable -violence. I can't convince any, only ones conscience can convince.

I understand fully government doesn't change lives (positively), but people do. And make no mistake, Theocraric Totalitarianism is not to be taken lightly, I do understand that what a Christian, Muslim, Humanist or what have you government is one day, can turn around and be the opposite the next day.

My Faith will exist regardless of WHO is president... my Constitution won't. I'm going to defend my Constitution, to the best of my PRACTICAL ability because my FAITH does not need defending.

I actually agree with this. But I do have an issue with "practical", and the whole "two choice" thing regarding elections, and the "no choice" thing the "economic saviors" are shoving down our throats. Can ya tell?

Thanks again for your reply, and all, I do appreciate it.

Bunkloco

[Ysabel Kid]

OI responded in great detail, so no need to repeat it, as most is spot on with what I would have said.

Bottom line is we WILL elect either Obama or McCain. The country is simply not at a point where a third party does anything other than act as a spoiler. In fact, if third parties were serious, they would embrace the philosophy I just outlined, focusing on increasing their numbers, and electing representatives, then senators, and building a country-wide base to actually have a shot at the big ticket. You are talking a 20-year plan - best case scenario - unless one of the two major parties implodes. So, with that dose of reality in mind, voting for a third-party in a close or battleground state will help elect the person as far opposite from your views as possible. This works no matter what side of the political sprectrum one is on. For example, voting for Baldwin in a battleground state - where less than 1% of the vote can make the difference - could easily pull away enough McCain votes to give the state to Obama. Conversely, Nadar cost Gore Florida in 2000 - the opposite example. And there are plenty more (Perot in 1992 and 1996; Anderson in 1980, etc.). This is simply a matter of truth and reality - doesn't make it fair, doesn't mean I like it or anyone else should - just that this is what we have before us.

I will NEVER tell anyone what they should decide from a faith-based standpoint. I would not presume to do so. But, I won't deny the truth even if it offends (which is not my intent). Now, if one would rank his preference Baldwin then Obama then McCain, though for the life of me I couldn't understand why, then the strategy is valid. Trying to destroy the GOP though probably won't hasten the rise of the Libertarians or the Constitutional Party. Rather, it will just mean the leftist will have free reign for quite some time...

[AmBraCol]

Trying to destroy the GOP though probably won't hasten the rise of the Libertarians or the Constitutional Party. Rather, it will just mean the leftist will have free reign for quite some time...

Actually, pretending that a vote for the "GOP" is a vote for conservative values is playing into the hands of the leftists. It gets more obvious to me each year that the "GOP" is going down hill and folks are aiding and abetting them in the slide by continuing to pretend that a vote for them is a vote for traditional US values. I'm not saying there's another "viable" candidate, but as long as folks keep voting for "the lesser evil" we're going to keep electing evil. It's as simple as that. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous. I, for one, refuse to vote against anyone any more. I believe there's a great number of folks in the US who would jump on the band wagon for a real conservative candidate if given the chance. The problem is - anyone worth voting for probably isn't running... It will be interesting to see if the Palin ploy will work. Will choosing a relatively conservative VP pull McCain's chestnuts out of the fire? Will she draw enough votes to put him over the top and into the White House? I guess we'll know the answer to that one sometime in November...

[bunklocoempire]

OI responded in great detail, so no need to repeat it, as most is spot on with what I would have said.

Bottom line is we WILL elect either Obama or McCain. The country is simply not at a point where a third party does anything other than act as a spoiler. In fact, if third parties were serious, they would embrace the philosophy I just outlined, focusing on increasing their numbers, and electing representatives, then senators, and building a country-wide base to actually have a shot at the big ticket. You are talking a 20-year plan - best case scenario - unless one of the two major parties implodes. So, with that dose of reality in mind, voting for a third-party in a close or battleground state will help elect the person as far opposite from your views as possible. This works no matter what side of the political sprectrum one is on. For example, voting for Baldwin in a battleground state - where less than 1% of the vote can make the difference - could easily pull away enough McCain votes to give the state to Obama. Conversely, Nadar cost Gore Florida in 2000 - the opposite example. And there are plenty more (Perot in 1992 and 1996; Anderson in 1980, etc.). This is simply a matter of truth and reality - doesn't make it fair, doesn't mean I like it or anyone else should - just that this is what we have before us.

I will NEVER tell anyone what they should decide from a faith-based standpoint. I would not presume to do so. But, I won't deny the truth even if it offends (which is not my intent). Now, if one would rank his preference Baldwin then Obama then McCain, though for the life of me I couldn't understand why, then the strategy is valid. Trying to destroy the GOP though probably won't hasten the rise of the Libertarians or the Constitutional Party. Rather, it will just mean the leftist will have free reign for quite some time...

I think the word sacrifice might sum it up well, sacrificing now to stem the tide. People have done it for us in the past (and currently), I now understand it to be our turn.

I would also call it good practice for what's to come.

The Campaign for Liberty movement http://www.campaignforliberty.com/ is trying to attack at all levels, state, local and federal, with different parties as well -Republican, Libertarian, Constitution, Independent, Green, and yes even Democrat as strange as that might seem. Here's a "Paul approved" Republican for congress http://www.lawsonforcongress.com/?s=0701&skip=1
Here's a Democrat called more conservative than the GOP incumbant http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/jul/28/00010/
And the Constitution Party candidate Chuck Baldwin http://www.baldwin08.com/
And of course trying to take back the GOP as well.

Republicans, Libertarians, Constitutionals, Independents, and Greens have already agreed on this: http://thirdpartywatch.com/2008/09/10/we-agree/
Strategies may be different, but the agreement is there.

There is quite a hardcore group gathering more and more who will continue the fight through the next four years as well, throughout all parties and levels of government.

It isn't anybodys intention to destroy the GOP -although they have tried to stop this movement at a couple levels, it is an effort to show Americans that folks from different parties can steer towards Liberty, not sit back vote R and D and watch as the current leaders steer away from Liberty.

This was deemed relevent on another board, "Don't fixate on the "differences" the partys and news hand you, focus on the Liberty grabbing similarites. Liberty really needs you to focus, now more than ever. They are BOTH government, and government don't like Liberty."
In the same light we can focus on Liberty promoting similarities, if we do, it may not take 20 years -which I don't think we have. You might agree. See below.

"Ban said he would use Thursday's summit to press world leaders, the private sector, foundations, and civil society to make "ambitious and concrete" proposals to ensure that these goals are implemented by a 2015 deadline."
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1

Maybe you would want to vote Nader and split the Obama vote? Are all the Democrats satisfied? Anything could happen.

Appreciate the replies, Bunkloco