POLITICS - Potential Lead Bullet Ban in WA. State!

[Ray Newman]

From the NRA-ILA e-mail alerts

"Lead Ammunition in Jeopardy in Washington State!
"Please Stand-Up and Make Your Voice Heard!

"The lead ammunition you use for hunting as well as target and competitive shooting will be banned from purchase, use and ownership in the state of Washington [bold added --RCN] if the state's Department of Ecology has its way. Lead ammunition is a target of a series of recommendations in the "Lead Chemical Action Plan" prepared by the Department of Ecology.

"The plan is open for public comment until Monday, October 6. The plan and information about submitting comments are available at:

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/swfa/pbt/leadcap/.

"Lead shot has been banned in waterfowl hunting. Most recently, California passed a law that prohibits hunters from using lead ammunition in areas within the range of the California condor. A symposium was held in June in Boise, Idaho about the effects of lead ammunition on wildlife and humans. Most of the speakers supported a ban on lead ammunition, regardless of the cost, performance, and availability of substitutes. The Department of Ecology plan is yet another effort to remove lead ammunition nationwide.

"Please take the time to submit comments to the Department of Ecology and to Governor Chris Gregoire (D). Let the Governor know that there is no adequate substitute for lead ammunition and that any affects on humans and wildlife do not justify a ban as recommended by her Department of Ecology. Governor Gregoire can be reached by phone at (360) 902-4111, by fax at (360) 753-4110, or click here to send email. The Governor can also be reached by U.S. Mail at: Governor Chris Gregoire, Office of the Governor, P.O. Box 40002, Olympia, WA 98504-0002."

[Slick]

It would seem that Kaliforneeya isn't the only state to try and ban / regulate out ammunition.

[Leverluver]

Well I guess you can throw out the plumber's number one commandment. I guess that s--t can flow up hill (or at least north)

[El Chivo]

that's pretty hard core, to eliminate target shooting with lead... doubt it will get anywhere.

[Gary]

that's pretty hard core, to eliminate target shooting with lead... doubt it will get anywhere.

That's what we Californians used to believe, then they did it. The way to defeat such bills is with hard scientific facts. Make them prove the ban is necessary. Here, there was no hard evidence that lead fired from guns was directly responsible for any lead in Condors via ingestion of shot game. The NeoMarxists pushed it through on emotion and rhetoric.

[MikeS.]

We all have to find a way to stop this absurd notion right now.

[Old Ironsights]

We all have to find a way to stop this absurd notion right now.

Stop voting Democrat.

Or start hoarding ammo and wait for the Revolution.

[donw]

gary, from what i read of the kalifornia DFG's statement in imposing the lead ban, there IS sufficent scientific data to support the lead ban...(i am a kalifornia resident and i do not agree with the ban...but, it is hard to argue with evidence supporting a lead ban, IF it does exist) and, the ban is NOT state wide, only in the known range of the condor, plus, there ARE exceptions involving the use of lead ammo; it's all in the new regs...www.dfg.ca.gov

don't worry, folks, you'll get a lead ban whether or not it's valid, whether or not the residents support it or not. after all; kaliphornia did it and got away with it. what difference does it make if the people/"sheeple" disagree with it?

the "sheeple" are gradually working their way back to slavery, oppression and a dictatorship, knowingly and willingly, i might add...all under the guise of "change". what's upsetting about the situation is that the "sheeple" cannot, rather, do not wish, to see what kind of persons are running for, and in control of our legislatures right now, REALLY are.

so far, sarah palin is a breath of fresh air for us gun owners, shooter and hunters, however, i believe, even if elected, she'll be brutally and mercilessly attacked from the left because of her pro-gun, pro-life stance.

i need to lay off the caffiene...

[Duff L Bagg]

We all have to find a way to stop this absurd notion right now.

Stop voting Democrat.

Or start hoarding ammo and wait for the Revolution.

So long as the lunatics are are in charge of the asylum we are going to pay the price. Keep voting Democrat but be prepared to have their will forced into your offices.

[Naphtali]

When I lived in Washington state, it was divided between the greater Seattle area and everywhere else. There was -- may still be?? -- a movement for much of out-state Washington to break from greater Seattle.

Greater Seattle is San Francisco north.

[Blaine]

Please email. These idiots are going to do it For The Children

[Modoc ED]

I think it's funny!!!!

All you non-CA guys that were knocking us CA guys about our lead ban in Condor Country here in CA are now going to start experiencing lead bans in your states. AZ is going through it now.

Like you non-CA guys tell us CA guys, why don't you move if you don't like it. You can all move to TN where Jeff Quinn tells us that there will never be a lead ban there.

If you're counting on the NRA to help you up in WA or over in AZ, don't count on them (the NRA) for anything. The NRA didn't do anything, nil, nada, zero, squat, zip, to help prevent the lead ban in Condor Country in CA.

"Lead Ban" -- coming to a hunting area near you sooner than you think.

[Modoc ED]

Ray Newman said:

"Let the Governor know that there is no adequate substitute for lead ammunition........"

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, therein lies the rub. There ARE adequate substitutes for lead and the legislators know it. There are lead free bullets available from Barnes, Nosler, and others bullet makers with more coming every day.

[Blaine]

Ray Newman said:

"Let the Governor know that there is no adequate substitute for lead ammunition........"

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, therein lies the rub. There ARE adequate substitutes for lead and the legislators know it. There are lead free bullets available from Barnes, Nosler, and others bullet makers with more coming every day.

Wipe that smirk off your face When .22 ammo is a buck a pop all up and down the west coast....Grrrrrrr

[Mike D.]

I have found the lead free bullets to be a superior improvement to what I have been using in the past. They are excellent penetrators and don't demonstrate as much blood shot meat as the old jacketed lead did. I like 'em, but never thought I would. Hopefully, there will be more of a variety of them offered in the future. Also, they need to drop in price, but doubt that will happen. Don't knock lead free 'til you try it.

[Blaine]

I have found the lead free bullets to be a superior improvement to what I have been using in the past. They are excellent penetrators and don't demonstrate as much blood shot meat as the old jacketed lead did. I like 'em, but never thought I would. Hopefully, there will be more of a variety of them offered in the future. Also, they need to drop in price, but doubt that will happen. Don't knock lead free 'til you try it.

All well and good if all you require is a box or two for sighting in and hunting. Just shooting is a hobby for millions and personally, I can't afford a buck a pop to shoot a few hundred all afternoon.........

[Mike D.]

The lead ban is in regards to hunting only. Target use of lead is still fine and dandy.

[Grizz]

Ray Newman said:

"Let the Governor know that there is no adequate substitute for lead ammunition........"

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, therein lies the rub. There ARE adequate substitutes for lead and the legislators know it. There are lead free bullets available from Barnes, Nosler, and others bullet makers with more coming every day.

That's not a rub, that's the stupidist thing I've heard all day; it sounds like a hussein whorebama quote to me.

there is no cost effective substitute, and there is no functional substitute for the ammo I shoot.

That 'rub' is like saying there is a substitute for gasoline, and it costs thirty dollars per gallon.

That 'rub' essentially strips us of our 2nd A rights. It's like saying to the press you have to change to 100$/gallon ink.

Besides which, lead, which is a naturally occuring element, not a chemical, has never been scientifically demonstrated to cause harm in game or in humans. (unless you're stupid enough to eat it) There are hundreds if not thousands of humans who lived to a ripe age with lead bullets in them...

but, whatever... I WON'T ASSUME THAT POSITION




grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrizz

[Modoc ED]

Grizz said:

That's not a rub, that's the stupidist thing I've heard all day; it sounds like a hussein whorebama quote to me.

Hey!!!! Are you calling me stupid!!! Of course, you guys should know I said all that kinda tounge-in-cheek.

Like it or not Grizz, it's coming. So you'd better get use to it and you'd better start laying in a good supply of copper or other non-lead bullets (Nosler's E-tip) before the cost goes up even more.

Right after the CA lead ban in Condor Country was passed, I bought several hundred dollars worth of Barnes Copper Bullets -- actually, just over a couple of thousand dollars worth.

I bought 1000 Barnes XPB 44 Cal (.429) 225gr Hollow Point bullets for my .444 Marlins. I paid $19.99 per box of 20 bullets. That was 50 boxes times $19.99 for a tidy sum of $999.50 and that didn't include shipping. I also bought 500 Barnes Tripple Shock X (TSX) Bullets 30 Cal (.308) 180gr Boat Tail bullets for my .30-06 rifles at $31.99 per box of 50. That came to $319.90 and that didn't include shipping either.

So it looks like if you wanna play in the future, you gotta pay.

The politicians and anti-gunners could care less if you can't afford to shoot non-lead bullet alternates to lead bullets.

Hey!!! It gets my goat too.

[Grizz]

Not calling you stupid Ed, just saying that the idea that there's a direct equivilent substitute is in fact stupid. AND copper is every bit as poisonous as lead is. We use is in, say, COPPER BOTTOM PAINT to kill the ocean cooties.

However, I say that the WA shooters should be able to put a stop to the WA idiotarians.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I sure hope we can kill that idea ! That sux!

[Modoc ED]

Not calling you stupid Ed, just saying that the idea that there's a direct equivilent substitute is in fact stupid. AND copper is every bit as poisonous as lead is. We use is in, say, COPPER BOTTOM PAINT to kill the ocean cooties.

However, I say that the WA shooters should be able to put a stop to the WA idiotarians.

Of course I know there is no direct equivilent substitute but there are some alternatives none-the-less.

It's really not the States alone Grizz. There is a study going around the Department of Agriculture (Forestry Division) to ban lead in the National Forests. We (people in Alturas, CA) and our Board of Supervisors had a meeting not too long ago with the Head of the Modoc National Forest (located primarily in Modoc County, CA) about the proposed changes to 4x4 vehicle off road use in the Modoc National Forest. At the end of the meeting, one of the Forest Rangers brought up that they were studying the feasibility of banning lead bullets in the National Forests country wide.

The frightening thing about that is that they can ban lead bullets with just the stroke of a pen. They have regulatory authority over all things that concern hunting/shooting in the National Forests and can ban lead bullets on a whim. That is how CA managed to impose the lead ban in National Forests in the Condor Range. They asked the National Forest powers that be to ban lead bullets and it was done with the stroke of a pen. It's not just the National Forests but the BLM too.

[Ray Newman]

"The lead ban is in regards to hunting only. Target use of lead is still fine and dandy."
--Mike D

Are you referring to the CA lead ban or this WA proposal?

If you mean WA, here's a response that I posted on the Shiloh board today:

"... Since I have gotten a lot of comments on ammunition today, I would like to mention that there is no proposed ban on lead ammunition in the Draft Lead CAP. We would like to work with hunters and shooters to promote non-toxic alternatives to lead without negatively affecting hunting or shooting areas."
---Holly Davies, PhD
Chemical Action Plan Developer
Washington State Department of Ecology

In response to Ms. Davies statement -- "I would like to mention that there is no proposed ban on lead ammunition in the Draft Lead CAP....", I will add YET.

The draft Lead Chemical Action Plan (CAP). clearly lays out the dangers of lead to humans & animals:

"Update on the Lead Chemical
Action Plan: Lead Ammunition

"Lead from ammunition is one of the many sources of this metal covered in the draft Lead Chemical Action Plan (CAP). The CAP is a planning tool to guide statewide efforts to reduce lead exposures in the environment. The goal is to lower the amount of lead people and wildlife are exposed to.

"The CAP does not include any recommendations to ban or regulate lead in any type of ammunition beyond current law. This includes all shotgun, rifle and handgun loads. Currently, lead shot is banned for hunting all waterfowl, coot, snipe, and in specific hunting areas (see below). These actions are taken where lead shot is known to be or has the potential to be a significant source of wildlife mortality."

Notice the use of the wording "current law." Then it mentions about lead shot that is banned & were taken as a result of the known or potential source of wildlife mortality. Again the use of the word "potential". & if you read the CAP draft, it will specifically mention how lead effects the wildlife, esp. the younger animals. See page IX of the draft.

Next the "Update" says:

"Lead ammunition has other impacts as well:

"Scavenging animals can be harmed by eating game that is killed with lead ammunition. If particles of lead ammunition are not first removed from game before eating, human health can be harmed, too.

"Lead ammunition can contaminate shooting areas so that these sites are a danger to humans and animals."

Note use of the wording "lead ammunition" , I seriously doubt that they are referring only to "lead shot".

If you read the CAP section, "Fishing, Hunting, and Shooting" (pp. 98 - 106) the dangers of lead are prominently laid out:

"Because lead ammunition has been found to result in high blood lead levels in workers and people who smelt lead to make their own ammunition sportspersons who cast their own ammunition or fishing weights from lead, and other household members, are at significant risk for high levels of lead exposure. "

"There are some risks for people who consume game."

"Areas where a lot of shooting takes place may accumulate large mounts of lead in the soil, which is a potential source of lead exposure for both people and wildlife."

"Fishing, hunting and shooting deposit lead into the environment and the major exposure is to wildlife. Many animals are directly exposed to lead when they mistake lead fragments for food or grit....Raptors and other predatory animals are subject to secondary poisoning by preying on lead-laden birds and mammals, or by scavenging contaminated carcasses."

"Popular shooting areas may accumulate large amounts of lead. Washington has many such areas including indoor ranges and outdoor ranges; ranges open to the public and law enforcement and military ranges; and informal shooting areas on both public and private land."

Then under "Recommendations", the CAP reads (p 217):

"Recommendations to lower risk for wildlife and the environment
"8. Work with stakeholders to phase out the use of lead in distributive products.
"9. Work with stakeholders to decrease use of lead in other products.
"10. Evaluate the safety of current rules and permits limits for lead in light of new research on the health effects of lead.

Then on page 259:

"Reduce Risks to Wildlife and the Environment
Environmental monitoring.

"Goal: reduce and eliminate threats to the environment from consumer products that are a source of lead exposure during use. "

IMO, while it may not effect ammunition now, but when/if implemented, it most assuredly will. Maybe not now, but in the very near future.
_________________

[El Chivo]

The lead ban is in regards to hunting only. Target use of lead is still fine and dandy.

The lead ban in California is just for hunting, and limited to the condor area. They didn't try to ban lead for target shooting.

Apparently the WA ban is for all uses, target shooting and hunting. They don't have condors, it would strictly be a water table thing.

I'm ok with using copper bullets for hunting, now that I've gotten a load worked out and a couple dozen loaded, I'm good for several years. But target shooting, that will kill whole industries.

Pretty insane, I think it bites off too much and won't get passed.

[mikld]

I wont be an ***, but I TOLD YA SO! When a lot of you were bad mouthing California, using silly names (Republik of Kalifornia, Kali, etc), and telling us to move out of state, when you were saying "can't happen here!", when you laughed and pittied us, YOUR legislators were planning the same ban! Now, as I seem to recall, California, Washington, and Arizona have in place, or soon will, legislation against lead ammunition. In a couple northern states venison from food banks was destroyed because of "potential lead poisoning" from bullet fragments. Also, I read that one cannot buy lead from recycling/scrap centers in Texas (lead fishing sinker ban. I read this on another forum.). So, while you were sitting back smug and laughing at us poor folks stranded on the "Left" coast you too were getting stabbed in the back.

I apologise for any hurt feelings but I had to say that. What we need is to stand together, not statewise, but NATION WIDE, to protect our sport (and some's livelyhood). I don't think the NRA did much here in California (I don't remember any publicised action on their part). I'm not an organizer, I don't have the knowledge or where-with-all to organize a nationwide movement, but someone amongst us may. We need the truth/facts told about lead and it's affect on our environment instead of some tree hugger's rants.

Now I will humbly retreat to my reloading room and await the flames...

[Ray Newman]

"Pretty insane, I think it bites off too much and won't get passed."
-- El Chivo

Here's the rub on this.

This will part of the Department of Ecology's regulations, so it will not need to go through & and be approved by the normal legislative process.

Here is WA, we have been very successful @ defeating anti-firearms efforts in the legislature. IMO, it is an attempt to circumvent the legislature by having the Dep't. of Ecology adopt & implement regulations that can/will far ranging & negative effects to the shooting community!

Just another example of non-elected bureaucrats usurp/expand powers from the elected legislators who would not introduce such legislation as it would not pass, but provide them with political cover to give a political shrug claiming, "there's nothing I could do...the Dept has the final say". & speaking as a retired Federal employee, who worked for a Federal regulatory agency, I've have seen it happen....

"What we need is to stand together, not statewide, but NATION WIDE, to protect our sport ...."
--Mikld

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yup there are far too many who claim/claimed "that legislation will not effect me." When I was living in CA & the legislature was attempting to pass the initial Roos/Roberti assault weapons bill, that was the attitude of far too many trap/skeet, varmint, & CAS shooters.

Well now that CA has a lead ban in certain areas, they are now concerned that it spread state-wide as migratory birds & birds of prey eat the carcasses of the dead varmints & the lead deposits on trap/skeet & other shooting facilities could pollute the water “supply”.

[J Miller]

Divide and conquer.

Evil Black gunners against lever gunners.
Trap and skeet snobs against hand gunners.
Rifle hunters against hand gun hunters.
Revolver shooters against auto shooters
Home defense gun owners against competition shooters
Occasional hunters against shooters
lead bullet users against copper bullet apologists
traditional muzzle loader shooters against modern inline muzzle loader shooters
scoped sight shooters against iron sight shooters


Guys, divided we fall, united we stand. It does not matter how good copper bullets are, or how much cheaper lead bullets cost. The fact is, the lead bullet bans are killing our ability to shoot.
Those of you who think the copper bullets are better, just keep using them, but help us defeat these lead bullet bans. Cos after lead is gone, they'll be back for your copper bullets.

Divided we are falling!

Joe

[new pig hunter]

so, hey, I exist in Kali .....

am I obligated to say/write something snide, like for instance,
"gee, it would never ever happen anywhere else ......"
or maybe, "gee, I thought only Kali has loser politicians that hate their constituents."
or maybe, "gee, I guess I should move outta Kali because it could never ever happen in any of the other 49 states and I'll be safe there."

should I do that, and risk the heat of every non-Kali person on the forum ?? or is it just the alcohol talking ??

No Cheer,

Carl

[El Chivo]

Just another example of non-elected bureaucrats usurp/expand powers from the elected legislators who would not introduce such legislation as it would not pass, but provide them with political cover to give a political shrug claiming, "there's nothing I could do...the Dept has the final say". & speaking as a retired Federal employee, who worked for a Federal regulatory agency, I've have seen it happen....

well, if that's the case, you guys are sunk...

look for shooting ranges to spring up all along the Oregon border.

[HATCHETTJACK]

come on down to north carolina, we still drink moonshine, grow tobacky, shoot all the lead we want, six deer a year bag limit, and always vote republican
low cost of living, ive golfed in short sleeve shirts in january, 70 mph interstate speed limits, jobs, cheap land prices... i could go on and on