45-60

[RustyJr]

I have been eying a 76 Winchester in 45-60 but don't know anything about the cartridge. Is there any way to make 45-60 brass out of 45-70? And if not how hard is brass to come by?



Thanks,
RustyJr

[cowboykell]

If you look it up, you'll remember it longer.

[Grizzly Adams]

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index. ... ,89.0.html

[Griff]

I think it's at its best when loaded with BP. But... remember what they say, "once you go black, you'll never go back!"

[morgan in nm]

I have never used brass for my 45-60s that were actually marked 45-60. I use remington 45-70 and haven't had any trouble.

I forgot to mention, TRIMMED 45-70 brass.

[mescalero1]

Griff,
Go to your room!!!!!!

[Griff]

Griff,
Go to your room!!!!!!

Uh, why?
.
.
.
.
.
Where'd your mind go?

[mescalero1]

To a bad place

[Griff]

To a bad place

Now... mescalero1, Go to YOUR room!

[mescalero1]

Yes, I'm sorry

[RustyJr]

Not to get off topic but what about a 45-70 case in a 45-75?


Thanks,
RustyJr

[Griff]

Not to get off topic but what about a 45-70 case in a 45-75?
Thanks,
RustyJr

IIRC, too skinny. See: Shooting with Hobie. Uses .348 cases.

[KirkD]

Here's an article on the Winchester 1876 in .45-60 caliber that specifically addresses the issue of making cases out of 45-70 brass. You can download the pdf here http://www.leverguns.com/articles/1876.pdf

[Ysabel Kid]

Kirk's article and recipe is excellent. I used it for the Chaparral Arms Winchester 1876 in .45-60 WCF I purchased a couple years ago - which lead me to this forum. You'll like the gun and the cartridge - and it is easy to adapt .45-70 brass for it!

[RIHMFIRE]

Do the Uberti reproductions shoot smokeless or only black?
I too....have been eying a 76 in 45 -60 for 1050 smackers

[chadbr]

Here's an article on the Winchester 1876 in .45-60 caliber that specifically addresses the issue of making cases out of 45-70 brass. You can download the pdf here http://www.leverguns.com/articles/1876.pdf

Kirk - you need to do some more writing.

Chad

[Grizzly Adams]

Do the Uberti reproductions shoot smokeless or only black?
I too....have been eying a 76 in 45 -60 for 1050 smackers

The Uberti reproduction of the 1876 is proofed for smokeless. That said, loads should be kept to Black Powder velocities.

Cases for the 45-60 can be made by shortening 45-70 cases to 1.89. The 45-60 was designed for a 300 grain bullet- #457191 works well. 45-70 dies can be used, but best results are obtained with proper 45-60 dies. Lee makes a good set of dies, as does C&H Die and Tool.

[KirkD]

when I was experimenting with smokeless loads in my original '76, I found that some smokeless powders were so slow that their pressure spike was not enough to expand the brass to seal off the chamber during firing, with the result that the outside of the case was all sooty. Moving to a little faster smokeless powder solved this problem. With the right smokeless powder, you can duplicate both original black powder pressure curves and velocities. I'm not a big fan of steamy '76 loads. For me, part of the reason to have a '76 is to shoot original '76 ballistics.

P.S. You can also get ready made, properly headstamped, nice brass from Rocky Mountain Cartridges. I purchased some from them and was very pleased.

[505stevec]

Kirk's article and recipe is excellent. I used it for the Chaparral Arms Winchester 1876 in .45-60 WCF I purchased a couple years ago - which lead me to this forum. You'll like the gun and the cartridge - and it is easy to adapt .45-70 brass for it!

How is the Chaperrel compared to the Uberti? I would really like to buy an 1876 but Ubertis' are pricy

[Ysabel Kid]

Kirk's article and recipe is excellent. I used it for the Chaparral Arms Winchester 1876 in .45-60 WCF I purchased a couple years ago - which lead me to this forum. You'll like the gun and the cartridge - and it is easy to adapt .45-70 brass for it!

How is the Chaperrel compared to the Uberti? I would really like to buy an 1876 but Ubertis' are pricy

You get what you pay for. The Uberti's weren'y out when I purchased the Chaparrral. I got lucky - got a good one. Others here have not been so fortunate. If I was going to get one today I would pay the extra and get the Uberti. I have several Uberti guns, and they are all very good quality!

[okdee]

[quote="KirkD"]when I was experimenting with smokeless loads in my original '76, I found that some smokeless powders were so slow that their pressure spike was not enough to expand the brass to seal off the chamber during firing, with the result that the outside of the case was all sooty. Moving to a little faster smokeless powder solved this problem. With the right smokeless powder, you can duplicate both original black powder pressure curves and velocities. I'm not a big fan of steamy '76 loads. For me, part of the reason to have a '76 is to shoot original '76 ballistics.[quote="KirkD"]

Hey KirkD, I have been working up some different smokeless powder loads for my 76, also. I have kinda taken a shine to H4831SC, so far. Still working on it. I am a bit concerned about the slow burning rate and a bit of burned powder residue. Although, I like the full cartridge of powder and seems to do well. I am still messing with putting it on paper out to 100 yards. Right now I am comparing the 4831 with 5744 powders.

Have you ever worked with this H4831SC powder?

What smokeless powder are you pretty happy with so far?

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee
Houston, Texas

[KirkD]

I had very good results with 5744, SR4759 and 2400, all loaded to around original ballistics. I've not worked with H4831SC.

[okdee]

I had very good results with 5744, SR4759 and 2400, all loaded to around original ballistics. I've not worked with H4831SC.

Are you able to give me some info on your SR4759 loads? Where is this on the burn rate?

The H4831SC fills the case up pretty nicely with about 49 gr. I am topping it off with one wad (going between poly and milk carton). Got a approx 300 gr lead bullet with a good crimp.

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee

[KirkD]

My SR4759 load was 22 grains under a 321 grain bullet for 1,337 fps. However, I'd not recommend it due to its burn rate. 2400 or 5744 would be better. Here are the DuPont Indices and Relative Quicknesses of a few powders for comparison, starting with the fastest:

Unique ... 431 ... 62
SR 4759 ..210 ... 30
2400 .......189 ... 27
5744 .......180 ... 26 (approx ... almost identical to IMR 4227, I've found no difference in ballistics for the same measure)
H4831 ..... 79 ... 11 (approx .... very close to RL-19)

Your load would be very low pressure. For comparison, black powder FFg is approximately 200 DPI and 30 RQ. SR 4759 is very close to BP in it's pressure curve, but I like to stay with 2400 or slower powders in old BP guns. That way, I can get the same ballistics with a lower pressure curve (i.e., easier than BP on the old guns).

[El Chivo]

SR 4759 ..210 ... 30
2400 .......189 ... 27

my charts show SR 4759 slower than 2400.

you're not thinking of SR 4756, are you? Or do the charts disagree?

[KirkD]

SR 4759 ..210 ... 30
2400 .......189 ... 27

my charts show SR 4759 slower than 2400.

you're not thinking of SR 4756, are you? Or do the charts disagree?

My Hornady chart agrees with you. However, for DPI and RQ, I'm using http://www.chuckhawks.com/powder_burning_speed.htm

It's rated as slower in burn rate on the charts probably because they take into account the bulk density, which is very low for SR4759 due to it's doughnut shape.

[okdee]

My SR4759 load was 22 grains under a 321 grain bullet for 1,337 fps. However, I'd not recommend it due to its burn rate. 2400 or 5744 would be better. Here are the DuPont Indices and Relative Quicknesses of a few powders for comparison, starting with the fastest:

Unique ... 431 ... 62
SR 4759 ..210 ... 30
2400 .......189 ... 27
5744 .......180 ... 26 (approx ... almost identical to IMR 4227, I've found no difference in ballistics for the same measure)
H4831 ..... 79 ... 11 (approx .... very close to RL-19)

Your load would be very low pressure. For comparison, black powder FFg is approximately 200 DPI and 30 RQ. SR 4759 is very close to BP in it's pressure curve, but I like to stay with 2400 or slower powders in old BP guns. That way, I can get the same ballistics with a lower pressure curve (i.e., easier than BP on the old guns).

Thank you KIRKD,for the information and the Chuck Hawk website!

Interesting information. Do you have some range values for velocity / bullet weight / powder and weight for the SR4759 and 2400 Powders that you could part with? I would like to start on the lower end and test some loads. I kinda lean toward the 300 gr lead bullet for my 45-60 Winchester. What are your thoughts on bullet weights for this caliber? Oh, yeah, my ole sweet 76, it was cutdown to a 23.5" barrel, so my velocitys will be slower, possibly.

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee

[KirkD]

I recommend sticking with the original bullet weight of around 300 grains. That's what these old '76s were rifled for. As for Chrono values, here's my data out of a 28" barrel ...

60 grains of FFg under a 321 grain GC bullet for 1,307 fps, E.S.=78 fps and S.D. = 29 fps
22 grains of SR4759 under a 321 grain GC cast bullet for 1,337 fps, E.S. = 58 fps and S.D. = 21 fps
20 grains of 2400 under a 321 grain GC cast bullet for 1,221 fps, E.S.=110 fps and S.D.=39 fps
26.2 grains of 5744 under a 321 grain GC cast bullet for 1,297 fps, E.S.=44 fps and S.D. 18 fps

My preference is 5744 due to its low E.S. and S.D.

[okdee]

Thanks Pardner! This gives me some good input. I greatly appreciate it!

Cheers,

Oklahoma Dee

[okdee]

Hey Kirk, I loaded up a few 45-60 rounds with 24 and 26 grains of 5744. Had some nice hits on some Metal targets out to 200 yards.

I then put on it paper at 100 yards ( give or take about 6-8 inches), the bullets that had 24 grains of 5744, with a 320 grain RNFP lead bullet. Remington Large Primers. I shot it from a bench, on Sunday.

I have a Lee Shaver Globe w/level front sight, a Riflesmith Short Staff Tang rear sight, which I replaced the single hole eyepiece, with a Hadley Eye Cup. I really think having the front sight with the level helped with the overall consistent placement of the rounds. Oh yeah, Did I mention that the barrel was relined? Alan Siegrist of Michigan did it. The original barrel had been improperly cut down to 23.5" . He corrected it and I think he did a mighty fine job.

I was please with the results.

[Ysabel Kid]

Looking good!

[1886]

We have been discussing this very topic over the past couple of days. As others have stated check out Kirk's article. Very informative. I picked up the Uberti 76 .45-60. I have yet to shoot it but initial impressions are favorable. I tried cut down Win. .45-70 brass but the rims are too thick. Others have tried this method with out issue. I have read others have tried cut down Rem. and Fed. .45-70 brass with success. I am going to call the Rocky Mountain folks and consider the brass issue settled. I have plenty on RCBS .45-70 dies. They are suitable for loading the .45-60 round except for the crimp die. Too long. I will call Midwayusa and order the Lee dies, product number 186331 and consider that matter closed. My primary reason for trying the Lee product is the fact they include the most excellent FCD. Good luck with your decision. 1886.

[KirkD]

okdee, it looks like you're getting close to a good load. Nice old '76 you got there.

[okdee]

Thanks Kirk! I am pleased and really pumped up about this old 76. I like to think I gave her new life! Plus the benefit of learning.

On the day I shot that paper target, I had my mentor help with a spottin scope. Plus he gave a couple of tips that he had learned from others. I am using a thin cross-hair on the Lee Shaver Globe front sight, which includes a level. Prior to shooting that particular group, he noted that I was "Chasing the Bull". My groups were in a triangle somewhat. Nothing in the center, just in the area. He asked where I was placing the cross-hair at. I told him I was trying to place it at the center of the target. He said, "that maybe your problem"!

My Mentor, quoted a gentleman ( a Marine ) shooter, on a point concerning target shooting, " Anyone, ANYONE, that does not shoot at 6am, is willing to settle for 9's." Implying that he will only settle for 10's, by aiming at 6 am.

He suggested setting the cross-hair at 6 am of the black area of the paper target. After doing that and leveling the sight (to the best that I can do), I started getting very tight groups. Then all I had to do was move the Riflesmith Short Staff Hunter Tang rear sight up or down to bring the shots into the correct X ring!

It is interesting, I have been shooting since I was a kid. Did the NRA 22 rifle classes, and did very well. Shot most of my life, pistols , rifles, shotguns, and you would think that I knew that I should aim for 6am. Guess I forgot! I realize that you need to know the gun, ammo and distance you are using to make it work. But that is all part of the learning process.

As a side note, I did like the 26 grains of 5744.

Oklahoma Dee

[KirkD]

I agree with your friend re. the 6 o'clock hold. Have fun with that old classic Winchester!