Trouble with my Trapper

[mitchagain]

About a year ago I bought a lightly used (less than 500 rounds) Winchester .357 Trapper from a friend about to get a divorce. I shot about 100 rounds of factory rounds and was quickly impressed with the ease of use and accuracy (for an old fanny burp with trifocals!). Shortly afterwards I moved home to NW Wyoming and recently started to build reloads for the gun. It took about 25 different loads of AA #9 and behind 125gr SWC lead bullets to find that this gun will not group those light bullets (maybe with a different powder, but I got lots of #9 left!). Today I shot a ton of different charges behind 158gr SWC gas checked Lyman bullets and was very impressed and tickled with my little gun's accuracy. More on that stuff later.

Now for my problem. Shortly after I bought the gun, I noticed that on occassion that when I levered another round into the chamber, that one or two rounds ended up UNDER the carrier and jamming the lever. Being new to lever guns I rationalized that I was "jacking" too fast or too slow. In the last 150 rounds it has gotten to the point that it now happens almost every time I lever a round from the magazine tube. Today it was so frustrating I shot it as a single shot. ARGHH!!

Ok, so when I got home I decided to methodically diagnose this issue. Here is what I see happening (I have taken the spring cover off to watch clearly). The tang on the front of the link is holding the round in the magazine in place, as it should. After the round in the chamber is fired, the lever is moved down and the next round is pushed upwards towards the chamber (fired round has been ejected cleanly) by the carrier. As the bolt is pushing this round into the chamber, the carrier lowers to pickup the next round. But this is where the problem happens. The carrier does not get low enough fast enough, or the tang has lowered too fast (chicken and egg theory here), which ever it is, or shouldn't be, and one or two rounds are fed into the action area below the carrier. These have to be removed carefully with a pocket knife or small blade screwdriver with the lever down completely.

I have taken the carrier screw out and polished it, I polished the holes in the carrier for the carrier screw, I polished the carrier spring, I polished front tang and sharpened the angle on the front face of the link, I have cleaned & oiled until I blue in the face and nothing is making things better or worse! I have check OAL of my cases and they are at spec. I have 4 cases without powder and primers but with the SWC lead bullets in place for practicing after each attempt to fix this cottonpicker!!

Does anyone have any ideas? I spent the past several hours looking at various web sites and forums, and have not found my problem. It might well be that I am using the wrong terms in my searches, but its time to ask the "Lever Action" guys and girls for some help.

Ok, I know. First post and its a doozie! Any help & I would be very tickled.

[Andrew]

Welcome, and nice detailed post.

I think I remember a member talking about the problem on his marlin. I think. Anyhoo, he made some adjustments to the "snail" cam or something that did the timing of lifter. I think I may be talking out of my rear hear but I do remember someone doing that.

[Tycer]

Welcome to the forum!

My buest guess is that what you have is a worn or broken cartridge stop. It is located on the leading edge of the lever-link. If it is broken, Winchester has been very good about replacing the part at no charge. It's a $29 part and is still available from Wnchester. Part# U343030110 LINK 357 MAG. $28.75

They can be welded oversize and ground to size for a stronger part.

Here's a pic of a broken one:

[mitchagain]

Tycer, thanks for the hot tip! Since I am new to to lever guns I was not sure what the tang should look like. Mine is very similar to the one you have in the picture. My grandson asked me today (he's 11), "why dont you just build it up with weld and file it down?" From the mouths of babes! Does anyone have a picture or an idea of how "tall" the tang should be? How hard is this material? Should I use a wirefeed welder or braise it?

BTW, thanks for the part number! Man this is tech support at its finest! Cartridge Stop....man its nice to know the real names of parts and pieces! I am exiting the fog now!

Now we are on a role! Thanks for the ideas guys! Keep 'em coming!

Mitch

[dbateman]

i had the same problem with my 94 30-30 welded it up with the oxy and filed it
to file it i just got some dummy shells and parshaly assembled the rifle to test
the function till it worked properly damaged a few cases but its been working
grate for years
there are a few different profiles to for the shell stop

[Nath]

A TIG welder would be better! A MIG or stick welder will do it. Just take your time between blobs.
When you got the shape and it works stone it smooth so it don't gouge the brass.
They kinder stick up less than 1/4" and lean forward some.
Put plenty on to avoid starting over again.
A bench grinder would help.
Let us know how it goes.

Nath.

[mitchagain]

This is great information. Now I have a Sunday project. Thanks for the tips and ideas. Dont have a TIG, and not to handy with a Oxy welding, but I can make a zipper with my MIG

I'll get some pics as I go and let you know what happens. Thanks for the help!

Mitch

[20cows]

You could call Winchester/Browning (1-800-322-4626 )and gety a new link for a little more than $20.

This is the part #: U343030110 LINK, 357 MAGNUM

They've always been a pleasure to deal with.

[20cows]

Tycer already said it.

This is what I get for skimming a thread and going off half-cocked!

[Old Time Hunter]

Tycer already said it.

This is what I get for skimming a thread and going off half-cocked!

Now is that a play on words or what!!!

[dbateman]

i only welded mine up because i was in the middle of the Kimberly's
and could not get spare parts and needed my open sight gun
have tried to find one locally but not been lucky yet
not in a hurry to change it
if you dont need it fixed right away buy the new part

[mitchagain]

Well gents I have to admit defeat! I rebuilt the cartridge stop 3 times now and each time I get to the point where the darn thing wont feed a round onto the carrier, then buff it off ever so slowly and carefully to where it load the round on the carrier about 3-4 times, then the original issue starts. Double rounds under the carrier!!! I have used my Dremel so much I hear the high pitch whine even when it isnt on!! Wait, that sound is always there!!

When the the CS (cartridge stop) and Link are a total of 14.5mm I can just push shells into the magazine, but rounds will not exit the magazine because the CS is too tall. At 14mm the rounds hang about 50% of the time and wont feed. At 13.7mm double feeds start. I think I am off on the slope of the CS, but after 3 iterations I am not sure which to go, i.e., more or less angle (towards the hammer, sloping away from the magazine tube).

Its late and I am frustrated. Does anyone have a schematic or mechanical drawing or a side view picture of the Link? Or should I swallow my pride and order the new Link?

Regards,
Mitch

[dbateman]

here is a pic of mine i used a file because you need the correct profile catch the rim of the next cartridge sorry about pic quality camera phone gota get a good camera

[Tycer]

Get yourself a new one, build that one back so it works, and while you are ordering, get the other parts unique to the 357.

[J Miller]

Mitch,

The height of the cartridge stop is not the only thing that counts. When the action is closed, the top of the cartridge stop lays flat out out the way. That way you can load the magazine and the cartridges can slide over it onto the carrier.

The length of the tip is the critical part. Too short and you get under the carrier jams. Too long and you can get holes punched in the sides of the cases.

Here is a see through pic of a 94 Win with the action closed. You can see how the cartridge stop sits. The ctg stop is the little white triange at the front of the link, #33, right at the end of the carrier #30.


Here is a couple pics that will show different contours of the ctg stops:



In the third pic you can clearly see the difference between the 30-30 link / ctg stop, and the .45 Colt link ctg stop. But both of them are the same height. The tip of the .45 Colt ctg stop was stoned down a tiny bit because it was punching holes in the side of the cases. There was a timing issue due to some slight magazine mis fits, I fixed both.

Hope this helps a bit, unfortunately I don't have pics of a good .357 link to post.

Joe

[20cows]

New parts from Winchester/Browning often arrive within a week.

[Gun Smith]

One other potential problem that was not mentioned . If a loaded round differs too much in overall length, ie. too short, it might cause the jam you describe. The condition allows the primary round and a BIT of the next round passed the cartridge stop.

[Griff]

You might also have a weak or broken carrier spring. If the carrier doesn't "SNAP" down after the initial nudge from the bolt, It won't be in position to accept the next round from the magazine as the link rises back into the receiver. To test: make sure the gun is unloaded; open the action all the way; then, using your finger, gently push downward on the carrier. It should just take a little pressure to cause the spring break over the cam & accelerate down. Could be a burr on the cam (cast into the top of the carrier), but usuallly it's the spring.

Not to worry 'bout being your first post... at least it's "on topic"! Welcome.

[mitchagain]

Tycer, What other parts specific the the 357 are you refering to? I just ordered the link.... $37.25 delivered...ugh. Oh well, when it gets here I'll rebuild the old one to match and try it out. Keep it as a spare, if it works, I guess.

Thanks for the help guys!

Should I start a new thread to discuss reloads for this gun? I got two loads that it seems to pattern nicely. 13.8 gr of AA #9 and 12.3 gr of AA #9. Any other favorite loads, will be saved and tried after I get this gun up to speed!

Regards,

Mitch

[mitchagain]

Well I got the link yesterday and installed it tonight (long story about the delay) and it works beautifully! No errors at all and now I see my error in rebuilding....too high and not far enough forward with the weld. Oh well, now I know and now I can start the fine tuning of the reloads! WooHoo!!

Thanks for all the ideas, help, pictures and support...

Regards,

Mitch

[L8agin]

Great how the depths of knowledge are available here. Regarding Joe's reference to the 45 link and magazine issue. Joe just what was your magazine issue and fix?
L8

[J Miller]

Great how the depths of knowledge are available here. Regarding Joe's reference to the 45 link and magazine issue. Joe just what was your magazine issue and fix?
L8

L8agin,
Where the rear of the magazine tube fits into the receiver there is a ridge. As far as I can tell, the follower needs this ridge to stop against. But in this particular Trapper the ridge was actually catching the rims of the cartridges and causing a momentary hang up. When this would happen the link would be pivoting before the cartridge was all the way on the carrier and the stop would put a really cute square dent deeply into the side of the case.
What I did was slightly bevel the bottom of the ridge so the cases would slip over it rather than hang up, and then I polished just a tinsy bit off the tip of the cartridge stop.
That cured both problems. However in retrospect I probably did not need to polish the end of the cartridge stop.

I've never had a Win 94 with a magazine / receiver issue like this before or since, so I don't even know if my "fix" was correct. All I know is it worked.

Joe

[L8agin]

Thanks Joe
L8